Prabhupada: Because you cannot do like this. Krsna says that mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Krsna. Are you able to become superior of everyone?

Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator. His own creation went against and Krsna became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior...

Prabhupada: (Hindi) For this reason Krsna says janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ; [Bg. 4.9]. One who knows what are the activities of Krsna he is liberated. So

manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin mam vetti tattvataḥ;
[Bg. 7.3]

So to understand Krsna, tattvataḥ;, it is not possible for ordinary person.

Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Krsna? Why not try to understand one's self? Krsna passed 5000 years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not...

Prabhupada: That means you do not know what is Krsna. Therefore you do not know what is Krsna. Krsna is... Why Krsna? You are part and parcel of Krsna. You are nitya, nityaḥ; sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So you are part and parcel of Krsna, you are nitya. Why do you say Krsna existed 5000 years ago? He is existing always.

Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. (indistinct) Within you, within oneself.

Prabhupada: No no. You are also nitya, but you are part and parcel of that nitya. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Kaṭha Upanisad 2.2.13). God is nitya, you are also nitya, God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. So this is knowledge of Krsna. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one.

Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God?

Prabhupada: Apart from images... That is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God because you are under the control of material nature.

Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God.

Prabhupada: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body.

Mr. Malhotra: It is the body.

Prabhupada: It is body, you can say that, but part of it.

Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated...

Prabhupada: That's all right. But still you say it is anguli [finger]. It is not the body.

Mr. Malhotra: Anguli. (Laughs) It is one part, to say many.

Prabhupada: No. You should be, should be senses. Just like this anguli, I am asking, "Do like this." It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example. This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation.

Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes.

Prabhupada: No.

Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean...

Prabhupada: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does this mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Mayavadis. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A airplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the airplane. That doesn't mean the airplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see, that it has got separate existence. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination?

Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But param pada that is nirvana, or whatever...

Prabhupada: Yes, param pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not separate. (?)

Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always?

Prabhupada: Always. Therefore it is said in the sastra, aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ; patanty adhaḥ; anadrta-yusmad-anghrayaḥ; [SB 10.2.32], ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninaḥ;... It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-manina, if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, aruhya krcchrena, for which he has undergone very severe tapasya," aruhya krcchrena... Krcchrena means with great difficulty. Param padam, brahmajyoti, patanti adhaḥ;, "again he falls down," anadrta-yusmad-anghrayaḥ;... Just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the Moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back?

Mr. Malhotra: To tells to others that they saw something.

Prabhupada: That's it. Similarly you will find the so-called sannyasis, not bhaktas, they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Mayavadi sannyasis they say that this duniya, [world] jagat mithya. If jagat is mithya, you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithya, then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithya why you are coming again to this mithya? That means you could not get place in the satya. Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the sastra. Aruhya krcchrena param padam [SB 10.2.32]. Although with severe austerities and penances (he) might go to the param pada, patanty adhaḥ;, anadrta-yusmad, because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ;. That is adho patha. As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyasa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down.

Mr. Malhotra: Lord Krsna we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the...

Prabhupada: Lord Krsna is everything.

Mr. Malhotra: Nirakara.

Prabhupada: Why nirakara? He says "aham," every sentence in the Bhagavad-gita, He says "aham." So how He is nirakara? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person.

Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only, I and you. There is no other way.

Prabhupada: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say, "I have no other way," that means you are dependent (on) something else.

Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently?

Prabhupada: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita-vada. You are different...

Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different.

Prabhupada: Who created?

Mr. Malhotra: God.

Prabhupada: So God is there. So God, you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya, you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God.

Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that "I am so and so, I am this body," or "I am a person, or atma seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from atma, then what is the position?

Prabhupada: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. The body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ; sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. You are nityaḥ; sasvata. You are never killed even after the destruction of the body. That should... That is real understanding, that I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold...

Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality?

Prabhupada: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say.

Mr. Malhotra: Qualitative it is gold, but...

Prabhupada: But quantity it is different. God is all-pervading. Isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. God is all-pervading, He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God?

Mr. Malhotra: Well there are...

Prabhupada: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that...

Prabhupada: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, ksetra-jñam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata [Bg. 13.3]. You have read Bhagavad-gita. There are two ksetras-jñas. One ksetra-jña, just like I am, you are. They are ksetra-jña. I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body. You do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim God? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasure of your body. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Krsna says ksetra-jñam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him.

Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity...

Prabhupada: You have to... If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking.

Mr. Malhotra: If I submerge myself with the entire...

Prabhupada: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his conditioned identity, and when he agreed, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73],"that is identity of oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: Surrender.

Prabhupada: Surrender, that is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Krsna. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. To serve Krsna favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupada: Any yoga. You are individual, God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Krsna says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future."

Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender.

Prabhupada: Surrender means agreement.

Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist.

Prabhupada: Otherwise why is he asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there.

Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains.

Prabhupada: And this is the fact, Krsna says. What Krsna says you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gita? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gita through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted.

Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Krsna. How he produces...?

Prabhupada: Then if he is disciple of Krsna, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavan. That means he is bogus. It is bogus... You cannot say... You are disciple... Just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say.

Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now...?

Prabhupada: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning.

Mr. Malhotra: He got you know this money.

Prabhupada: Oh, he can get anything, but that is... Magic. That is... Magician also knows.

Gopala Krsna: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills, cuts people's body, then he joins them.

Prabhupada: So many things. Magic jugglery is...

Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi, siddhis.

Prabhupada: That is siddhi, magic also siddhi. You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi. That is also siddhi. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Even one is siddha, he cannot understand Krsna. That is said, yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Even one is siddha, still he cannot understand Krsna.

Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to asrama, where and everybody sits there, the big Krsna statue is there. In his room personal room Krsna statue...

Prabhupada: If he is at all devotee of Krsna, he will never say that he is Bhagavan. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness.

Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavan, they don't call them Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books.

Hari-sauri: There was one article in the Blitz where they quoted him saying, God is man and man is God.

Gopala Krsna: He said he is the incarnation for this age.

Prabhupada: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say, "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say.

Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing)

Prabhupada: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda, that I am Krsna, I am Lord Rama, and he accepted. He accepted. (Hindi conversation) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please sir, give me car." That's all. He is such a great man; bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on. (Hindi conversation) Ṣaḍ-aisvarya-purnam. (Hindi conversation)

Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant?

Prabhupada: Yes. Nityanam, nityo nityanam cetanaḥ;... (Hindi) Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. (Hindi) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Krsna says mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic sastras. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. This is description of Bhagavan. That He has nothing to do, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. (Hindi) (Explains in Hindi that Krsna does not need or show any magic, when He was just a child He killed Putana. Not that by meditation He became God. Bhagavan is always Bhagavan.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate, nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him then how He is Bhagavan?

Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed aham brahmasmi.

Prabhupada: Brahman (Hindi). You are Brahman. Because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you. That gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavan Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Krsna is accepted as Parabrahman by Arjuna: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Parabrahman. So param, this word is used, Paramatma, Parabrahman, Paramesvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sadhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sadhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12].

Gopala Krsna: So he is checking if it is time to go on... Are you going to come with us also? Very good.

Prabhupada: Bring little water. These, my disciples they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that I am equal to my Guru Maharaja, then that is offense.

Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me.

Prabhupada: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all.

Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow.

Prabhupada: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father.

Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father but he feels that he may, will progress...

Prabhupada: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God.

Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru, then disciple. The gurus may change.

Prabhupada: They cannot change. If there are change of guru, the disciple acts, but does not, he'll never say that I have become equal or one with guru. That is not so.

Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swamiji, that your Guru Maharaja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Evam parampara praptam [Bg. 4.2]. But that does not become, he has become. He may be representative of guru, representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God.

Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru with his disciples.

Prabhupada: That's alright.

Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru.

Prabhupada: Not equal, representative. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal to me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor.

Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru.

Prabhupada: But they will never say that they have become equal to me. "I have advanced to be my guru." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that "I am subordinate." Otherwise how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture.

Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped...

Prabhupada: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru. He will never say that "Now I have become guru, so I don't care for my guru." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru, always. Even though I have become guru, still I am subordinate to my guru.

Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively...

Prabhupada: Qualitatively equal I have already said. Not quantitatively.

Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively.

Prabhupada: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same?

Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold.

Prabhupada: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say, this is explanation. You must have brain to understand. That a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see this is accepted. This Mayavada theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory.

Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes?

Prabhupada: From the Vedas. Vedas says, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate, Upanisads. Na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate sva-bhaviki jñana-bala-kriya ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport].

Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura-buddhi? From where this filth grows?

Prabhupada: Asura-buddhi and sura-buddhi. Due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree. Therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura. Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them suras. Dvau bhuta-sargau loke 'smin daiva asura eva ca [Bg. 16.6]. There are two kinds of men. Daiva, devata and asura. Visnu-bhaktaḥ; smrto daiva asuras tad-viparyayaḥ;. Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devata, and just opposite number is asura. Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura. He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyajñaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakraḥ;. Yac-caksur esa savita. This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-samhita. Yac-caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam raja samasta-sura-murtir asesa-tejaḥ;. Asesa-tejaḥ;, unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyajñaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakraḥ;. Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. I offer my obeisances to Govinda. But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun. "Don't bother me by heating. Stop." Will it become...? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up, I want light immediately," is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order.

Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their bhagavata, they call themselves Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: That anyone can say that I know my Bhagavan, nobody knows. I am Bhagavan but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavan? It is rascal Bhagavan.

Gopala Krsna: When Bhagavan has a toothache he goes to the dentist.

Prabhupada: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavan."

Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh I tell you, he has...

Prabhupada: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavan, he can do anything.

Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God or Bhagavan?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the the equal Bhagavan. I know by, I have realized by...

Prabhupada: But God says I am the creator of everything. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is Bhagavan.

Gopala Krsna: We can go, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. We will go to the car. (Srila Prabhupada goes out) [break] (in car:)

Prabhupada: ...to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning in the sunshine.

Prabhupada: Similarly to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sunglobe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirvisesa, nirakara-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61], God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramatma He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sunglobe, you will meet with the sun god. Just like Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one. But different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramatma understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñana. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Krsna. Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ; [Bg. 7.19]. When one surrenders to Krsna, understanding that Krsna is everything, that mahatma is sudurlabha, very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñanis. Somebody knows the Paramatma, isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese [Bg. 18.61]. And one who knows Krsna he is perfect. [break] ...this stage of understanding Krsna, your knowledge is imperfect. [break] ...sastras, but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the sastras. We manufacture our own way.

Mr. Malhotra: No actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations.

Prabhupada: There cannot be interpretations.

Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people...

Prabhupada: That is foolishness.

Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret it a different way.

Prabhupada: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ; [Bg. 1.1]. Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says dharma-ksetra means this body and Panḍava means the five senses, why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. [break] ...is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets Kuruksetra means this body, why shall I accept it? Kuruksetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets... [break] ...interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gita it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost.

Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather Krsna had His own interpretation.

Prabhupada: That may be but why shall I accept?

Mr. Malhotra: ...had his own interpretation rather. All the people who show...

Prabhupada: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says as soon as you accept interpretation it is lost.

Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost.

Prabhupada: Bas. So under the circumstances... That means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged.

Mr. Malhotra: No, he, slokas are there. All the Bhagavad-gita slokas are there.

Prabhupada: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way.

Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same...

Prabhupada: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Krsna." Why? Krsna says, "Just think—of Me, man-manaḥ;, just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says, "No no, it is not to Krsna," why shall I accept it?

Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Krsna.

Prabhupada: You have read it?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Krsna says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see.

Mr. Malhotra: But Krsna had been on this earth in flesh and bones.

Prabhupada: That is history, Mahabharata. And all the acaryas, they have accepted, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka. Svayam caiva bravisi me. Arjuna accepts Him, Parambrahman. You are Parambrahman. Not that "Because I am your friend and I am accepting You as Parambrahman, but all the acaryas they have accepted." [break] ...manusim tanum asritam. Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Krsna as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajananti mam muḍha manusim tanum asritam, param bhavam ajanantaḥ; [Bg. 9.11], "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya, I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you?

Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Krsna came into being, I mean...

Prabhupada: That does not mean that... Suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Krsna comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this?

Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know...

Prabhupada: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajananti mam muḍhaḥ; [Bg. 9.11]. The rascals think that I am one of the human beings. If he is one of the human beings, how he can say mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says "No more superior than Me." That is God.

Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course.

Prabhupada: He says everything but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty.

Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him.

Prabhupada: No, we understand. But we do not accept it. What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? [break] ...sevaya. Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi) Over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleswar (?), from there Krsna-nadi starts.

Prabhupada: Oh. Krsna-nadi is for us.

Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleswar. Then there is old, old mandira, very old mandira, temple, there are five nadis are coming.

Prabhupada: Oh, Kaumuda, Kaveri...

Mr. Malhotra: Krsna, Kaveri, Vena, five rivers flow from there. We will go there, tomorrow morning we'll go. [break]

Prabhupada: ...just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing.

Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over Europe and you must be accustomed to cold, it is severe cold.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snow fall. I was walking on snow.

Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: ...the first month, I think, except April and May, all the rest months.

Prabhupada: All the year.

Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot and April, middle of April to May. Then in June rain starts. [break]

Prabhupada: ...legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya-vitta. (?) [break]

Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñata...

Prabhupada: Tad vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12].

Mr. Malhotra: Guru-vijñana.

Prabhupada: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet, this word is used. This means must, vidhilin.(?) This is the form of vidhilin, in grammar. Vidhilin is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru. Srotriyam brahma-nisṭham. And who is guru? Samit-paniḥ; srotriyam. Srotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru, srotriyam. This is parampara. Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru. No. That is not guru. Guru means srotriyam. Srotriyam brahma-nisṭham [MU 1.2.12]. And after hearing perfectly from his guru, he is brahma-nisṭham. Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Krsna, his guru, he became devotee of Krsna. Not became. He was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-nisṭham. This is the guru's qualification. And in another, the Bhagavata it is said tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijñasuḥ; sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñasuḥ; sreya uttamam. The best aim of life or transcendental aim of life, he requires guru. Then what is guru's qualification? The next line is tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijñasuḥ; sreya uttamam, sabde pare ca nisnatam [SB 11.3.21]. Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru. Not a loafer class. (laughter) Srotriyam. One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru. And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority or the...? Brahma-nisṭham. Brahmany upasamasrayam. The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmany upasamasrayam. He has taken shelter of Brahman, upasama, rejecting, no more hankering after anything material.

Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat he has to clothe.

Mr. Malhotra: Minimum needs of the body.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering. so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvamis it is said, nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing. Because he depends on Krsna. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrahara-viharakadi. At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex life.

Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and sex. [break] ...sleeping at all or some little sleep.

Prabhupada: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life.

Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means, actually sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening...

Prabhupada: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep.

Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes.

Prabhupada: Yes, some, some.

Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day...

Prabhupada: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid.

Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping! Hundred per cent?

Prabhupada: No. They can, but they do not show like that. Otherwise artificially one would like to imitate it.

Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia.

Prabhupada: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease.

Hari-sauri: One of my parent's friends, she hadn't been to sleep for 7 months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that.

Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills.

Prabhupada: Yes, in western countries, tranquilizer.

Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said, "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said, "Yes." Then he said, "Can I have these?" "Yes yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material...

Prabhupada: Sada samudvigna-dhiyam, in the sastra it is said, "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety.

Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things the more anxiety you are in...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. Because he has accepted something which is asat... Asat means which will not endure, such things, on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat, this body is asat. Asad-grahat. Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api klesada asa dehaḥ; [SB 5.5.4]. Although this body is temporary, still so long the body is there, we will suffer. Klesada, klesada means always giving trouble. This trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble.

Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari.

Prabhupada: Oh!

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut.

Prabhupada: And all the tirthas are on the four sides. Very good road?

Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Ramesvaram.

Prabhupada: On this road?

Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. [break] ...by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhuvanesvara by train, and then from there by car like that. [break] It is very small place, Dvaraka, it is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvaraka itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone.

Prabhupada: Maharastra Province is rich? I don't think so.

Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharastra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of Maharastra is poor. There is not much cultivation.

Prabhupada: But industry it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharastrians.

Mr. Malhotra: Hm?

Prabhupada: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders.

Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab for instance, they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is 4/5 of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab.

Prabhupada: But it is always.

Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together.

Prabhupada: Punjab is the best province in India.

Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: On my way to Kashmir.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas (?) also. You know. Tongas. Tongas, buses. [break]

Prabhupada: ...young age when I was 25 years. [break] ...via Jammu.

Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir.

Prabhupada: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi.

Mr. Malhotra: Accha, you came back via Rawalpindi. [break] You have I mean thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual...

Prabhupada: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Krsna family. So this Radha-Krsna worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaisnava family. Belonging to the Caitanya-sampradaya.

Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean.

Prabhupada: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother.

Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also?

Prabhupada: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Damodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Radha-Krsna Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Radha-Krsna and playing with (indistinct). The same thing is being done now. In a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upasate. There is no change.

Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha-yatra, Jagannatha, they must be very curious.

Prabhupada: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupada. Thank you, Prabhupada." They say like that. They enjoy very much. Dance like anything. When the Ratha-yatra goes. They say, "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that.

Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing?

Prabhupada: No, around the road, Hare Krsna dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad dancing. Krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau. That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biani, Biani. He is just Birla's tea (indistinct) looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vrndavana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well, he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta. Tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Krsna, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the...

Prabhupada: Foreigners.

Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Krsna Himself... (laughter)

Prabhupada: Therefore their fathers are charging me that this man knows something, mesmerism. (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Brainwash.

Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, accha. How you entered in their hearts?

Prabhupada: Mesmerism, Hare Krsna mantra.

Mr. Malhotra: Hare Krsna mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Krsna mantra.

Prabhupada: Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Krsna conscious.

Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupada, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road, have you been to Honolulu?

Prabhupada: No. He has gone.

Mr. Malhotra: Accha. You have been to Honolulu?

Hari-sauri: Yeah.

Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khola, they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said, "Well, Mr. I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that "What you are doing?" "We are playing kirtana." I said "Well, why you are out on the streets." "Because these all demons. These are all demons you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Krsna. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Krsna name should enter in their hearts."

Prabhupada: That is... This mantra...

Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Krsna." I said, "But in Gita it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not..." So they replied also correctly to this also.

Prabhupada: Yes, and Krsna says...

Mr. Malhotra: Accha, then I said "What is this?" "This is sikha." I said, "Well what it is meant for?" So he said "Well, this is the..." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said is it your own interpretation. No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge. [break] ...that "You come have prasadam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were...

Prabhupada: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullas and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed.

Prabhupada: Our men, they can prepare rasagulla, samosa, kacuri.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited Giriraja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. [break] ...I mean is it regular new films are being made or only one or two films have been made so far?

Giriraja: We make more films.

Hari-sauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Krsna People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupada set up in New Vrindaban, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out.

Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to Hardwar and Hrishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management.

Prabhupada: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness."

Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said, "No." Then we said, "Would you like to have Coca-cola." They said, "No." Then I said, "What would you like to have, milk?" "Yes." Lassi, chach?(?) Yes. Fruit. Yes. It happened so that Giriraja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekadasi. Now ekadasi day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Bangleswara (?), so we brought some paraṭas with this gobi(?) in it.

Prabhupada: Ekadasi.

Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekadasi. When we came to Mahabaleswar, we opened. They said "No, we can't eat because it is ekadasi." So we said that "No you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleswar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then...

Prabhupada: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice puri. And then...

Mr. Malhotra: How Giriraja, I just ask you, how you took to all these good things of life? I mean in natural form or with some self-discipline or with some coercion or with some what?

Giriraja: It was Prabhupada's mercy. I was looking for a guru. Actually whenever I heard there was a swami or a yogi, I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Srila Prabhupada perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process, chanting, dancing, taking prasadam, offering arati, and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life.

Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekadasi day, all such things.

Giriraja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life.

Prabhupada: Sadhu-marganugamanam, adau gurvasrayam sad-dharma-prcchat sadhu-marganugamanam.(?) These are the process.

Mr. Malhotra: Sadhu-marga.

Prabhupada: Sadhu-marga.

Giriraja: We study the sastras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. [break]

Prabhupada: Four places, Haridvar, Prayaga, Vrndavana.

Mr. Malhotra: But after every 11 years or...?

Prabhupada: No. It comes in rotation, every four years.

Mr. Malhotra: So there are sort of ardha-kumbhis and then kumbha.

Prabhupada: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year. Magha-mela.

Mr. Malhotra: Magha-mela. But this is not every year, this time people are...

Prabhupada: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice.

Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi conversation)

Prabhupada: Iran is like, that but no green, simply sand.

Mr. Malhotra: These are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea.

Prabhupada: Yes, everything was... Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhrtavan asi vedam **. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi) ...for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rama the supreme master of a particular yuga, and then He had to worship Lord Siva. So who is supreme, Lord Siva or Lord Rama?

Prabhupada: Lord Rama is the Lord. Siva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant of the son. Krsna, why Rama? Krsna, when Sudama Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet.

Mr. Malhotra: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Krsna immediately got down from his simhasana and took his lotus, touch his feet. And Narada Muni was smiling, nara-lila.

Mr. Malhotra: Narada Muni was smiling. (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Narada Muni knew it that He is Supreme Lord, but he did not check it.

Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Krsna bow. This is the biggest paradox.

Prabhupada: Mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika [SB 11.19.21]. Krsna is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. (Hindi)

Mr. Malhotra: When I went to Dvaraka Puri, so there is Bheda Dvaraka in the sea. One is Dvaraka Puri, then about I think 10, 12 miles away there is Bheda Dvaraka. At Bheda Dvaraka, that is the residential palace of Lord Krsna. And seven ranis of Lord Krsna. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that?

Prabhupada: He had 16,108 queens.

Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. But there they show I think only 8 or 7.

Prabhupada: All are described, that he had 16,000 palaces. And Narada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Krsna expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rani had 10 sons, and they had sons also. In this way the Yadu-vamsa was crores.

Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Krsna was going en route and then He had to be at the place of—at Viraṭa because of some sraddha of some muni. That is (Hindi) [break] So we get frustrated, but where the first apple came. Where is seed of first apple planted on this earth planet?

Prabhupada: Yes. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. Krsna answers this question. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam. I am the original seed of everything.

Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came.

Prabhupada: And He says another place.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitaḥ;
[Bg. 10.8]

Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ; [Bg. 7.19]. Everything is answered in Bhagavad-gita. [break] There is river, there is fountain...

Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct) [break]

Prabhupada: ...written by D.L. Raya. (indistinct) janme puspa bara amatare vasudhara. (indistinct) hari hari ache. Tara madhye ache dese eka sakala dese sreya.(?) Out of all these countries, there is a first-class country, and that is my country, India. (indistinct) Tara madhye ache dese eka sakala dese sreya.(?) So the India is sakala dese sreya. The best of all other countries.

Indian man: (Hindi) All same...

Prabhupada: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Punya-bhumi. Religion and other studies of life, India. Communist (Hindi) that (if) you want to study religion then go to India." These boys of western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture airplane.

Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there.

Prabhupada: There is no need. It is simply bogus. The first thing you require... You have got this body. You have to eat and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural products, also cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization.

Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past, in the last five hundred years.

Prabhupada: India is based on this principle.

Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be.

Prabhupada: That is there.

Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, matra may be different.

Prabhupada: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's... Just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God.

Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchakini, (?) where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere... [break]

Prabhupada: ...live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Krsna. This is my mission.

Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is...

Prabhupada: Very simple.

Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know these added added, added.

Prabhupada: That is asurika. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled.

na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ;
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ;
[SB 7.5.31]

These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya. This hope will never be fulfilled. Durasaya. Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ;. This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; they have no information of the internal energy. Svarupa-sakti. Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir-artha-maninaḥ;. They are giving importance to the external energy. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ; [SB 7.5.31]. And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy. Although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ;. I had been to that Gandhi's place.

Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha.

Prabhupada: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the... After all he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage, why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? (Hindi) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers?

Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule.

Prabhupada: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing.

Prabhupada: But that means we do not get such information from Bhagavad-gita, that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gita and did this business, miscreant (?) business. He took Bhagavad-gita and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life... His, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this.

Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hm?

Prabhupada: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Krsna. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad-gita," without Krsna. What is this?

Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad-gita without Krsna? He never commented on third chapter.

Prabhupada: No, no. Any chapter. It begins bhagavan uvaca. Now how he can describe Bhagavan? This is going on. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ; [SB 7.5.31].

Indian man: He used Bhagavad-gita for political purposes.

Prabhupada: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Krsna is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mam anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Krsna never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mam anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. This is Bhagavad-gita. Krsna never says that "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kuruksetra is politics. But still Krsna is there. How you can discard Krsna?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, battle of Kuruksetra was fought...

Prabhupada: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye ratham sthapaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye. [Bg. 1.21] "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Krsna, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta. "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your word." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Mayavadi theory that "I am God, now I am fallen down," That is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog falls down, not the God.

Mr. Malhotra: How can he be supreme if he can fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. Na mam karmani limpanti na me karma-phale sprha [Bg. 4.14]. "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not effect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya. (?) So how God and myself can be equal? Karmana daiva-netrena. There is daiva, there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1].

Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty...

Prabhupada: Then aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayis... [Bg. 18.66], then Krsna takes care of you.

Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect...?

Prabhupada: No. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. Those who are bhaktas, their karmas are finished. Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. Devotee is not under karma-phala.

mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

He is Brahman, immediately, liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service.

Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands aham brahmasmi...

Prabhupada: No, simply does not understand aham brahmasmi, but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this and this is my duty."

Mr. Malhotra: "I am this and this is my duty." Then that is what is...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is liberation.

brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

That is perfection of brahma-jñana.

Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at...

Prabhupada: Final analysis is devotional service.

Mr. Malhotra: The param pada. They even advocate, means Lord Krsna advocates, that all iccha, every type of iccha, iccha of even mukti...

Prabhupada: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti. After becoming brahma-bhuya, the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life.

Mr. Malhotra: Without any akanksa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Akanksa is also there. That akanksa is different. That akanksa, how to please Krsna, that akanksa. In the material stage, the akanksa is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage; how to please Krsna.

Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent?

Prabhupada: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required.

Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two?

Prabhupada: To give your fruits of, result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karosi yaj juhosi dadasi yat kurusva tad mad-arpanam. "Whatever you do, you give me Me, whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad asnasi dadasi yat [Bg. 9.27]. "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (pause) We have to cross this hill?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small. This is called Kandalakat. That was called Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Vrndavana. And Bombay.

Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, Krsna center?

Giriraja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities.

Prabhupada: You have seen?

Mr. Malhotra: Ah.

Prabhupada: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Krsna Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not? 24th January?

Prabhupada: May not. Because Kumbha-mela is there. [break]

Mr. Malhotra: ...at auditorium. This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabalesvara. This side.

Prabhupada: Bangalore how many miles?

Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. To go to Madras, you go also on this road [break] ...dolak.(?) Some (indistinct) will give... I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music.

Prabhupada: This is called musical science, Jala-taranga. Jala, taranga means vibration, different vibrations. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tunes by filling it with water. (SP makes sound dn dn dn dn dn) [break]

Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. [break] Pancagani is one place, and 12 miles difference Mahabalesvara. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. [break] In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life [break] ...this place. I visited Switzerland and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace, [break] ...and second, it is very neat and clean.

Prabhupada: Maharastrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. [break] ...karmi.

Mr. Malhotra: Good man.

Prabhupada: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmi is the lowest stage. Then jñani, then yogi, then bhakta.

Mr. Malhotra: More a politician.

Prabhupada: Yes, karmi means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this, how to enjoy myself, how to allow my men to enjoy. This is karmi platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmi plan. Gandhi, Birla they are all... There is no question of spiritual life.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Krsna River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Krsna river. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya (?). This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time like that of Teksasila. And Sarnatha, near Sarnatha, what is that place? Not Sarnatha, up in Bihar, that was also very big university, no?

Prabhupada: Oh, Taksila.

Mr. Malhotra: No Taksila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that...

Prabhupada: Tarbanga.

Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. (?) And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Pasir, with a population of about 10-15,000 people. All the temples are in the Krsna River, in the Krsna river. [break] Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future.

Prabhupada: You are creating the next position.

Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate is tied with the past karmas. So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas. Or can I change my fate?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas, and you are creating new karmas.

Mr. Malhotra: But this means a circle that I'll always be.

Prabhupada: Karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: So how can one be out of this cakra?

Prabhupada: That cakra, you surrender to Krsna.

Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Krsna. And put all the karmas...

Prabhupada: Yes, He says, "You surrender. I square up all your karma."

Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle.

Prabhupada: Dharmasyasya parantapa mam aprapya nivartante mrtyu-samsara-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Karma-cakra, this mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. One after another, one body after another, one body after another. This will continue. If you don't come to Krsna, then nivartante, mrtyu-samsara-vartmani, you have to return again to that karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your...?

Prabhupada: To accept Krsna, that "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me."

Mr. Malhotra: How to surrender?

Prabhupada: Surrender, there are six items. Yes. That "If I surrender to Krsna, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that."

Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad.

Prabhupada: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Krsna, to reject what is not favorable to Krsna.

Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Krsna? How one knows?

Prabhupada: Krsna says. Do that. Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Always think of Krsna, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor. These things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Krsna without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Krsna? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that, "Now I am surrendered to Krsna, He will give me protection." [break] But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaisnava, then dog gets the benefit. Mam hi partha vyapasritya, mat para, mayy asakta-manaḥ; partha yogam yuñjan mat para, mat para [Bg. 9.32]. When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Krsna's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Krsna." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Krsna, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Krsna says aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Krsna. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way.

Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Krsna has accepted?

Prabhupada: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced.

Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling.

Prabhupada: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ; paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. [break] ...mouse of the mountain. (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. [break]

Prabhupada: Yes, if you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durga.

Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual...?

Prabhupada: Visnu.

Mr. Malhotra: Visnu, Krsna. This Balaji is Visnu?

Prabhupada: Visnu.

Mr. Malhotra: How then Visnu, the incarnations, Krsna, then Visnu's incarnation...

Prabhupada: Visnu is everything. If you want material power you can get it from Visnu.

Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Visnu?

Prabhupada: Yes, Visnu can give everything.

akamaḥ; sarva-kamo va
moksa-kama udara-dhiḥ;
tivrena bhakti-yogena
yajeta purusam param
[SB 2.3.10]

Paramam purusa is Visnu.

Mr. Malhotra: Visnu can give the power of bhakti also.

Prabhupada: Everything. Yes, bhakti is, generally He gives bhakti. If you want something other than bhakti, you can get it.

Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference.

Devotee: There?

Indian man: What is the subject?

Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember.

Prabhupada: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Pancagani, starts from here. (end)