Morning Walk
5 Dec

Prabhupada: This rascal theory has meant an atheist. [break]

Vasughosa: ...manava-seva say, "I don't have to support your society or your temple because God is everywhere."

Prabhupada: This is also manava-seva. We are giving this knowledge to the human society. Is it not seva? They are remaining in darkness of their position and we are giving them this knowledge. This is not seva?

Vasughosa: But what about the poor, hungry, and the suffering bodies?

Prabhupada: Yes, poor, hungry, come. We can give you food. We are giving, already. Show the pictures. You have not seen the pictures of Mayapura, how two thousand, three thousand people we are giving. That is included. Bhagavata-seva includes that. You do not require to do it separately. It is already there. Just like if you pour water on the root, the watering the leaf is included. But if you water the leaf, then that tree will dry. And that is not complete. But if you pour water on the root of the tree, it is complete. Why don't you give this reason? This is natural. If you give food to the stomach, the service of the other parts of the body is included. But if you give food to the eyes, it is spoiled only. The food is spoiled, the eyes are spoiled, and nobody is satisfied. Why don't you give this reason?

Vasughosa: So in that way, because they are not feeding the stomach, they are actually starving.

Prabhupada: Starving. They are supplying food to the eyes. The eyes are becoming blind and the food is wasted and no nutrition.

Vasughosa: So by this kind of philosophy they are destroying themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is against their interest. These rascals, they do not know what is their interest. Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. If you keep the stomach empty and try to supply food to the eyes and legs, it is simply waste of time. But these rascals, they do not know. They will go on committing mistakes after mistakes. This is the position. We are giving the real knowledge that "You serve in this way. Then everyone will be pleased." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñate sarvam idam vijñatam bhavati.

Vasughosa: They are simply acting out of ignorance.

Prabhupada: That's it. So you are... We are delivering them from ignorance. (kirtana—break)

Devotee (2): ...program in this life is birth, old age, disease and death. And Bhagavad-gita gives the remedy for...

Prabhupada: This is good. If you want to stop this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, then you must take the way of life spoken by... [break]

Devotee (2): ...seem to be...

Prabhupada: Nobody is in healthy condition. (devotee offers obeisances—break)

Devotee (2): Just like a medicine... We may understand it. For myself, I can tell. I study Bhagavad-gita and I understand it, but I find so much difficulty to applicate it to the life of every day because...

Prabhupada: That is... Everything is difficult but... Why "but"? (pause—break) ...a physician, to purchase the medicine, to drink the medi..., that is also difficult but we have to do that.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Bhagavad-gita gives the way to go back to Godhead.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest (1): Bhagavad-gita gives the way to go back to Godhead. Otherwise one has to suffer continuously.

Prabhupada: Yes, this material world, birth after birth. One birth, suffering, then again die, again another birth, again suffering. But the people are kept in ignorance. They do not know how the soul is transmigrating. (aside:) Ayi. Betiye.(?) From... Ask them to sit down properly. Why don't you... Is there any seat, proper? So you... (Hindi) What was the topic? What was going on, the topic?

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, this morning we went to this engagement. There was the inauguration of the Vivekananda Society Home, so we went there on sankirtana because we were invited by them. And one swami spoke and he said service to mankind was also service to God. And at the end he also said that Vivekananda used to say that for the housewife, that the cooking pot was becoming God, had become God, had become a God.

Prabhupada: People applauded. This is foolishness. They do not know how to act. Just like if you pour water on the tree, then it is accepted that you are pouring water on the tree but that is not the process. The process is to pour water on the root of the tree. Practically we... You can make an experiment. Just like here is a tree. You don't pour water on the root but pour water on the leaves. Then it will dry in due course of time. It will not be effective. But if you pour water on the root, the water will go everywhere. So the whole thing is just like a tree. God is the origin of everything. He is the root. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ; [Bg. 10.8]. Therefore He is the root. So if you pour water in the root, then the water is distributed everywhere. But if you pour water on the leaves, on the twigs, on the fruits, it will take time and it will not be successful. So one who is not in awareness of the laws of nature, they commit this mistake. We can say that pouring water on the leaves is also pouring water on the tree. By serving human being you can serve the Supreme Lord, but that is not the way. Another example is that if you supply food to the stomach, then the share is partaken by all the parts of the body. But if you supply food to the part of the body, it is not shared by other part of the body. They are opening hospital for men, human being, but what about the animals? They are also part and parcel of God. They are killing them. So they have no realization of God. God says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ;, aham bija-pradaḥ; pita [Bg. 14.4]. Suppose I have got several sons. If you take care of my one son and you neglect others I will not be happy, naturally. But if you take care of all my sons, then I'll be happy. For a father there is no such distinction that "My particular son should be taken care of and other should be neglected or they should be killed." That is not father's view. So if God is the father of all living entities, if you take simply care of the human being, then what of the others? There are so many fallacies in this argument, by taking care of the human being you worship God. There are so many fallacies. Hm? Is it not? So you have to put this argument, that "By serving human society is to serve God"—that is not fact. That may be partially; it is not complete.

Devotee (2): Yes, Srila Prabhupada, so he talked (indistinct).

Prabhupada: I cannot hear.

Devotee (2): He didn't talk once about Krsna. He didn't mention once the name of Krsna, and he didn't say anything about...

Prabhupada: Krsna is the root of everything. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So He is the root. So you pour water in the root. Just like we are Krsna conscious. So because we are Krsna conscious, does it mean that we are not taking care of the human being? That is automatically coming. But those who are taking care of the human society only, social work, political work, they do not know even what Krsna. Missing. That is the difference. Because we are taking of Krsna, we have come to the human society. We are teaching them Krsna consciousness, spiritual knowledge. That is automatically. We are feeding them, giving them prasadam. That is included. But those who are opening hospitals for human being, they are taking the poor animals to the slaughterhouse, maintaining big, big slaughterhouse. That means foolishness. Krsna will not be happy that one son you take care by opening hospital and another son you go, you send him to the slaughterhouse. This is foolishness. Never. God will never be happy. The same example. If the father has got both children—you take care one of them and others you kill them—will the father be happy? So that is not the way of making the supreme father, God, happy. That is not the way. That is foolish way. Rather, displeasing the father. That is not a very good philosophy. Why you should make distinction? He claims,

sarva-yonisu kaunteya
murtayaḥ; sambhavanti yaḥ;
tasam brahma mahad yonir
aham bija-pradaḥ; pita
[Bg. 14.4]

Mamaivamso jiva-bhutaḥ;: [Bg. 15.7] "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very... That is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any..., "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone—janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. Either he is animal or human being or demigod or big man or small man or rich man or poor man, a learned man, foolish man, these problems are there, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi, if you take care of him, that is the best service.

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, also Lord Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita at the end that "One who surrenders to Me, he will be delivered from all material reactions and go to (indistinct)." But it is also said that some persons, they are more inclined to surrender than others.

Prabhupada: Yes. You should surrender; you should request others to surrender. That is service.

Devotee (2): But, Srila Prabhupada, is it because of their karma, past activity, that...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. One can immediately surrender if he likes. The background has nothing to do. Even the background is sinful, Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: [Bg. 18.66] "I shall save you from reaction of sinful life." Then there is no consideration of their background. You simply surrender. Then it will be solved, everything.

Devotee (2): But, Srila Prabhupada, has anyone got the same ability to surrender, because...

Prabhupada: Everyone has got. If I say, "You surrender," you just... What is... If you disagree, that is another. Otherwise you can surrender immediately. Where is the difficulty?

Devotee (2): So it's just by our personal whim that we can surrender.

Prabhupada: Anyone can surrender immediately. There is no difficulty. But if he does not, then nobody can induce him. Otherwise, if he likes, he can surrender immediately. And He said, voluntary. Krsna does not force. If He would have forced, then He would not say, "You surrender." No, it is your will. If you like, you surrender. If I say, "You do this," that is not force. If you like, you can do. That is your interest. Yathecchasi tatha kuru: [Bg. 18.63] "Whatever you like, you do that. But I give you the right instruction, that if you surrender, you'll be happy." That is the greatest service. If you teach people how to surrender to Krsna, that is the greatest service. That will solve his all problems. (aside:) Dayananda has... That's all. Bring water. If you don't surrender, then go on suffering. That's all. That is your business. You should surrender...

Guest (2) (Indian man): I have got some doubt.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest (2): If we are all children of Lord Krsna—all the living beings are a part of Krsna—in that case childrens in thousands and hundreds who are killed every day...

Prabhupada: That is created by you, that you may become the sons of one father, but every one of you has got different tendency.

Guest (2): But I can't see how...

Prabhupada: No, no, just try to understand that we are all sons of Krsna. That's nice. (aside:) No, there is another one.

Devotee: Of brass?

Prabhupada: It is silver. You go. All right. A father has got five sons. Some of them are very learned; some of them are foolish. Why? Does the father like that "The some of my sons should be rascals, and others should be very nice?" Does the father like it? Then why he becomes? Hm?

Guest (2): If one becomes...

Prabhupada: (Hindi) That we say. Consider. But these varieties are there, so how you can check it? Cause may be different. I have seen while I was in Allahabad one big barrister's sons. One became barrister; another became ekala.(?) You know ekala? Ekala driver. So the father did not like that "One of my sons should become ekala, and other son should be like me, barrister," but I have seen. And there are many instances. The father does not want that "My son should be vagabond, useless," but sometimes they become by their own activities. That independence everyone has got. So that is not father's creation. Your point was "Why God has created like that?" That is foolishness. God says that you surrender." But you do not surrender. That is your foolishness.

Guest (2): (indistinct) ...must be punished.

Prabhupada: Eh? Naturally. Suppose if there is some infectious disease, the doctor says, "Don't go there." And if you go there, you'll be infected. You'll suffer. How the doctor can protect you? Doctor's duty is to warn you not to go to that area, "It is now infected with smallpox." But in spite of doctor's instruction, if you go there and if you infect that disease and suffer, then it is your fault. When a man is hanged by the judgment of the court, do you think that the high-court judge is inimical to that person? He's giving judgment to other persons that "This one must make one lakh of rupees from that person." And next judgment, "This man must be hanged." Does it mean the high-court judge is partial? He's simply giving judgment on the merit of the particular case. So there is no argument that "Why God has created so many varieties?" God has not created. You have created. Man is the architect of his own fortune. Fortune and misfortune you have created. So we have to suffer or so-called enjoy. There is no enjoyment here. It is simply suffering. But because you are under maya, you are thinking suffering as enjoying. Just like a hog is eating stool. Other man is becoming... "Very abominable!" Oh what nasty thing he is..." But he is enjoying. He is thinking, "I am enjoying the best food." I have seen in airplane. One Indian gentleman, he was eating the intestine of the hog. So it was horrible for me, but he was eating very nice. So in this way the world is going on. "One man's food is another man's poison." So similarly, we are creating our next birth according to our desire. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. According to the infection of the different modes of material nature, we are creating good or bad body next life. The laws of nature is unknown to the foolish society. They are thinking, "This life is everything. Misled, they do not know the aim of life. That is going on. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ; [SB 7.5.31]. One blind leader is leading other blind men. This is going on. And when we present the real solution, they say it is brainwash. Now against our movement there is propaganda in USA, charging that "He has brainwashed them." (aside:) You can come here. (Hindi) "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is our position. When we speak all these things, they say it is brainwashing movement. Actually it is brainwashing movement because we are dissipating all kinds of misunderstanding, values of life. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is not brainwashing; it is heart-washing. Our heart is stacked with so many dirty things, so we are trying to wash it. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. And that is our movement. We are trying to cleanse the heart so that he can understand himself. One can understand his real position and then do the needful and life becomes successful.

Guest (3) (Indian man): Where is soul?

Jagad-guru: He is asking where is the soul.

Prabhupada: Can you see? So soul is within the heart. When the soul goes away you cannot explain what happened. You say, "heart failure." So why the heart failure? The nerves and the bones and the muscle and the blood, everything is there, and still, you say that "It stopped. Heart failure." So just like machine is running but somehow or other stopped, but you do not know what is the cause of stopping. The cause is that the heart, when it goes away, then the machine stops.

Guest (3): God is within the soul also.

Prabhupada: Yes. God is along with you. Isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is there.

Guest (4) (Indian man): Swamiji, in Bhagavad-gita it is telling karma also and surrendering also. Now, how it is possible? In karma-kanḍa (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Karma, if you do... Just like we are preaching so many people to surrender to Krsna but will do not do. Do you think our, this instruction, that "You surrender to Krsna," is taken by everyone? Do you think? Suppose you are all here. We are preaching the same thing, that "Surrender to Krsna." But these boys, they have surrendered, but you have not surrendered.

Guest (4): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Krsna says, niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayo hy akarmanaḥ;: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. According to guna and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brahmana, you do the brahmana's work. If you are a ksatriya, you do the ksatriya's... Niyatam kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Krsna's in... But if you are intelligent, then Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Krsna is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But he says, niyatam kuru karma. Find out this verse.

niyatam kuru karma tvam
karma jyayo hy akarmanaḥ;
sarira-yatrapi ca te
na prasiddhyed akarmanaḥ;

Devotee (3): Should I read the translation?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction."

Prabhupada: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll "Gat, gat, gat, gat," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyatam kuru karma tvam: "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that?

Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

Prabhupada: Then? Purport?

Devotee (3): Purport. "There are many pseudo-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Krsna did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for ksatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder ksatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart..."

Prabhupada: You are following? Go on.

Devotee (3): "...and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."

Prabhupada: So Bhagavad-gita is giving you gradual process to the highest point and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyad guhyataram. Find out this verse, eighteenth chapter. He has given the instruction of karma, yoga, jñana, everything, but the most confidential instruction is this.

Devotee (3):

sarva-guhyatamam bhuyaḥ;
srnu me paramam vacaḥ;
isṭo 'si me drḍham iti
tato vaksyami te hitam

Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit."

Prabhupada: Is there any purport?

Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now he is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter he has said, 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gita. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Krsna, a pure devotee of Krsna. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Krsna is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities."

Prabhupada: Guhyatamam, most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of Krsna, He says, isá¹­o 'si me? What is that next? Isá¹­o 'si?

Devotee (3): Isṭo 'si me drḍham iti.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (3): Isṭo 'si me drḍham iti tato vaksyami.

Prabhupada: Drḍham?

Devotee (3): Drḍham.

Prabhupada: No. What is the spelling?

Devotee (3): Drḍham.

Prabhupada: No, no, the word, separate word? Isá¹­o 'si?

Devotee (3): D-r-d-h-a-m.

Prabhupada: Hitam.

Devotee (3): Drḍham iti tato vaksyami te hitam.

Prabhupada: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Krsna, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, utmost, sudra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore sastra says, nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kasṭan kaman arhate viḍ-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]. You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujam. Viḍ-bhujam means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyatam kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13], and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brahmana, then samo damas titiksa arjavam, jñanam vijñanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. If you want to be ksatriya, tejaḥ;... What is that? Tejaḥ; sauryam yujyam yuddhe capy apalayanam isvara-bhavas ca ksatram karma svabhava-jam. If you want to be a vaisya, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. And if you want to remain a sudra, paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brahmana or as a ksatriya or a vaisya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyatam karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Krsna says, niyatam kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child. What can be done? You cannot...

Guest (2): Swamiji, what is Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: What Krsna says, you hear and do. Just like you are now acting, family conscious or country conscious or society conscious. The dog is also working as dog conscious. Monkey is working, monkey conscious. He is thinking, "I am monkey." You are thinking you are Indian. He is thinking he is American. He is thinking as..., so on, so on, different consciousness. But when you act Krsna consciousness, that is your real dharma. Now we are working under different consciousness, therefore varieties. And when you come to Krsna consciousness, then it is oneness, perfection, to act according to the instruction of Krsna. Anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. What Krsna says, you act accordingly. You are acting... The Communists, they are acting Lenin consciousness. Is it not? Their god is Lenin. I have been in Moscow. Everywhere Lenin's picture, Lenin's book, and they are worshiping Lenin's tomb. That is Lenin consciousness. So similarly, you become Krsna conscious.

Guest (5) (Indian man): Those who have become Krsna conscious, they will see Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise where is consciousness? If you do not think of Krsna. Just like these boys. They are always thinking of Krsna, either chanting or reading book or selling book or writing book, preaching Krsna, twenty-four hours, taking Krsna's prasadam, taking rest for working in Krsna consciousness, everything in Krsna, chanting always Hare Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. They have no other business.

Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness is spiritual vision. Krsna is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Krsna conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual.

Guest (6): Swamiji, you have seen Krsna?

Prabhupada: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Krsna, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Krsna, then how we are acting for Krsna? Hm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? Find out this verse, sarvatra yo mam pasyati, mayi ca sarvam pasyati, like that.

Devotee (3): Sarvatra?

Prabhupada: Yo mam pasyati. Or yo mam pasyati sarvatra. Find out.

Devotee (3):

yo mam pasyati sarvatra
sarvam ca mayi pasyati
tasyaham na pranasyami
sa ca me na pranasyati

"For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me."

Prabhupada: Is there a purport?

Devotee (3): "A person in Krsna consciousness certainly sees Lord Krsna everywhere, and he sees everything in Krsna. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Krsna, knowing that everything is the manifestation of Krsna's energy. Nothing can exist without Krsna, and Krsna is the Lord of everything—this is the basic principle of Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is the development of love of Krsna—a position transcendental even to material liberation. It is the stage beyond self-realization at which the devotee becomes one with Krsna in the sense that Krsna becomes everything for the devotee, and the devotee becomes full in loving Krsna. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity attains his immortality. Nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in Krsna is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk. It is stated in the Brahma-samhita, premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ; sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]."

Prabhupada: Santaḥ; sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. He sees every moment.

Devotee (3): "Yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam..."

Prabhupada: Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **.

Devotee (3): " 'I worship the primeval Lord Govinda who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Syamasundara situated within the heart of the devotee.' At this stage Lord Krsna never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yogi who sees the Lord as Paramatma within the heart, the same applies. Such a yogi turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself."

Prabhupada: You are seeing also Krsna, but because you have no love, therefore you cannot appreciate how we are seeing. If you love some person you keep his photograph on the breast. Is it not? So you are seeing Krsna in the temple, but because you have no love you think that "I am not seeing Him." That is the defect. They are seeing Krsna. Otherwise why they have sacrificed everything for worshiping Krsna, for dressing Krsna, for feeding Krsna? They are seeing Krsna. They are not wasting their time. But you have no love for Krsna. You're thinking that "They have not seen Krsna. They are worshiping an idol." That is the difference. One who loves somebody he keeps his picture on his chest. He does not? He throws it, same picture. It is question of love. Therefore it is said, premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ; sadaiva hrdayesu [Bs. 5.38]. One who has developed that love and bhakti, he can see Krsna at every moment. Otherwise it is not possible. And because you cannot see, you ask them also, "Can you see?" But the seeing process is different. We do not know the process; therefore we are thinking that Krsna cannot be seen. And one who knows the process, he sees every moment. Is it clear? You learn the process; you will see Krsna every moment. Therefore this word is used, premañjana-cchurita. By the eye ointment of love you have to smear your eyes; then you'll be able to see Krsna. Naham prakasaḥ; sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtaḥ; [Bg. 7.25]. Find out this verse. Yoga-maya-samavrtaḥ;. When one's eyes is covered by the yoga-maya he cannot see, see Krsna.

Devotee (3):

naham prakasaḥ; sarvasya
muḍho 'yam nabhijanati
loko mam ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]

Prabhupada: Muḍho 'yam na abhijanati: "Those who are rascals, they cannot see." Muḍho 'yam na abhijanati. So one has to become interested how to see Krsna.

Guest (7) (Indian man): Satya Sai Baba says...

Prabhupada: Satya Sai Baba is not authority.

Guest (7): No, no, I don't accept.

Prabhupada: Then why you quote him? We are not prepared to hear his words.

Guest (7): Kindly clear off my doubt.

Prabhupada: No... That is another thing. That is another thing.

Guest (7): All the miracles only just to increase confidence and...

Prabhupada: Why...? Magic is magic. That is another thing. That is not knowledge.

Guest (7): Suppose if I want to talk here Krsna consciousness among the masses...

Prabhupada: No, we have to push on Krsna consciousness according to the direction of Krsna, not by the ways and means by Sai Baba. That is foolishness.

Guest (7): Can I attain such magical powers?

Prabhupada: So why? What is the use? We are not using any magical powers.

Guest (7): Just to convince the people.

Prabhupada: Why this foolishness? We never... Ask my disciples. I have never shown any magic. Why?

Bhagavata: That is a cheap business.

Prabhupada: That is cheating business. That is not required. It is meant for the foolish men.

Guest (7): ...Suri Bhavantam (?), he was convinced by him just because of his magical powers.

Prabhupada: Who?

Guest (7): Suri Bhavantam (?) is a scientist. He was convinced by him just because of his magical powers. Otherwise he could not influence me. One of my friends who was sitting there, he told me, "Satya Sai Baba, he won't come this side," he said. I said, "I'll make him to come this side."

Prabhupada: No, these are words. He has been challenged also by a group of educated men. So there are some fools, rascals. That is all...

Guest (7): I have got belief in God, and so Narendra, my friend was sitting by my side. "No, if I sit there only, he will go that way. I want to see him this side."

Prabhupada: Do you accept Sai Baba as God?

Guest (7): No, no, not at all.

Prabhupada: Then why do you speak all this? That's...

Guest (7): Not even greater than me. I don't think like that. He is also a human being like me.

Guest (6): In the Bhagavatam it is said that (quotes Sanskrit verse). (indistinct)

Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before (indistinct). If it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad-gita is accepted by the the acaryas, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, Visnu Svami, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the... Acaryopasanam. You take the knowledge through the acaryas. Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Krsna recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam acaryopasanam [Bg. 13.8]. Worship the acarya. Tad vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just read this. What is that?

Devotee (3): Amanitvam adambhitvam...

Prabhupada: This is the process of knowledge. Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam acaryopasanam. Acaryam mam vijaniyat [SB 11.17.27]. If you go to acarya, then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Acaryopasanam. Go to acarya. That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated. You want to see magic; you don't want to see God. God is personally speaking, accepted God, not that by magical... And who can show greater magic than Krsna? Krsna, when He was seven years old, He lifted the Govardhana Hill. Can this rascal do that? Who can be greater magician than Krsna? So we shall go to the greatest magician. Why shall I go to a tiny magician? That is our misfortune. If you want to see magic, see the magic, what Krsna has done. This is our misfortune, that we go to a wrong person and misled. If you want magician, see Krsna, how great magician He is. He married sixteen thousand wives. Is there any instance in the history of the world that one has sixteen thousand wives and maintaining each of them? And he expanded himself in sixteen thousand husbands. Not that one wife is waiting: "When sixteen thousand, after sixteen thousand nights, He would come here?" No. He is present everywhere. That is magic. Narada was surprised that "How Krsna is maintaining sixteen thousand wives?" He saw in each and every home sixteen thousand establishment and Krsna is present everywhere. So this is magic. Why don't you see Krsna's magic? Why you are so much allured by a tiny magician? That is your misfortune. Poor heart, poor magic. See the real magic. If you want to see magic, see the Krsna's magic. Krsna, when He was three months old, the Putana came to kill the child by poisoning but she was killed. So in this way, from the very beginning of Krsna's appearance, He's killing so many demons. So why don't you see this magic? If you want to see magic, see Krsna's magic. Why the poor magic? Krsna says, sarva-loka-mahesvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of all the lokas." And each loka... Suppose this loka, earthly planet. There are hundreds of gold mines. Why you are captivated with the chaṭaka gold? Why don't you be captivated by the person who has millions of gold mines by His wish? So we are poor; therefore we are captivated by poor magician. If we are intelligent, then we should be captivated by Krsna's magic. That is intelligence. But we are poor; we are captivated by poor magic. That's all. Don't be poor. Muḍho nabhijanati mam ebhyaḥ; param avyayam. Don't remain muḍhas. Try to understand Krsna. Then your life will be successful. That is Krsna knowledge. Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ; [Bg. 4.9]. Anyone who understands Krsna's activities, then he becomes liberated. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Why don't you use your valuable time for understand Krsna? Why you are captured by the poor rascal magicians? That means we are unfortunate. If we become captivated by tiny magician, that means we are unfortunate. Be captivated by the magic Krsna has shown. That is the point.

Guest (8) (Indian man): Your Divine Grace, there is Mukunda-mala-stotra by Kulasekhara Maharaja. Are there any translations of that in the English and other languages? (indistinct) ...slokas with you (indistinct) Krsna mantra?

Prabhupada: Yes. I think we have translated Kulasekhara... It is not published, but I have translated.

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, some of these devotees are required to... With your permission, I'd like to have some of the devotees come out for kirtana and...

Prabhupada: So? You can go to the arati, kirtana. Go. You also go. [break]

Devotee: ...the argument that after saying "surrender to Krsna," and becoming free from the miseries of material life we remain still going home, still a devotee who comes through the heat, still a devotee who is dying just like an ordinary man.

Prabhupada: It is an argument like this, that "You have gone to a physician for curing your disease. Why you are not cured?" This is nonsense question. It will take some time to be cured. Do you mean to say as soon as you go to the physician, you become cured? Do you think? Why don't you answer like that? A foolish man will say like that, that "You have taken to Krsna consciousness. Why you are now suffering?" Yes, suffering will be... Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktaḥ; pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. So the assurance is there. You take the treatment. Why do you expect? Immediately you go to the physician. A father gets the daughter married, expecting a child. Does it mean as soon as she's married, immediately child? And if a rascal says, "Oh, she is married, and there is no child?" Because he's a rascal. You must wait. Now she is married, it is sure she'll have child. That's a fact. But if the rascal wants, "Now my daughter is married. There is no child?" What is this nonsense? This question is like that, that "You have come to Krsna consciousness. Why you are suffering?" You cannot answer this?

Devotee: Yes. Also you give the example of the cat catching up the mouse and the cat...

Prabhupada: That is another thing. But first thing is that why do you want immediately effect? That is foolishness. The effect will be there. Therefore it is called dhairya. Utsahad dhairyat. Dhairya means patience. You act God acting with patience. The result will be niscaya. The result will be there. These things are required. Utsahad dhairyat niscayat tat-tat-karma-pravartanat, sato vrtteḥ; sadhu-sange saḍbhir bhaktiḥ; prasidhyati. So why you should have a foolish person—"Now I come to Krsna consciousness. I have become immediately everything. Give up everything?" Why do you think like this? The same example: The girl is married, now it is sure that she'll have child. Wait. Niscaya. When there is husband and wife there will be child. There is no doubt about it, but wait. Why do you expect immediately child on the day of marriage. This is foolishness. So you should answer these rascals like that. "You cannot expect immediately. But we are on the path. We have just entered." One enters into the school. Does it mean in one year or six months he becomes MA? He has to wait. But he has entered the school. There is expectation of his passing MA examination. But one who has not entered school, loitering in the street, he has no... He's hopeless. But this man has hope. Wait. The same example: If one girl is not married, then where is the question of child? Everything has to wait. Therefore it is said, utsahad dhairyat. One should have proper enthusiasm and patience. That is wanted. How one foolishly expects the result immediately? You sow the seed; you water it; it grows; then it becomes big tree; then pick the fruit; then eat. Immediately you cannot expect. Immediately you have got. As soon as you get the seed, you have got the thing, undoubtedly. But you must give time the seed to fructify. That required.

Guest (2): What exists between the planet Gokula and the (indistinct) Krsna?

Prabhupada: There is a planet who is full of cows, Gokula. That's it. Surabhir abhipalayantam. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. Krsna is engaged there in tending cows, surabhi cows. That is Gokula. That planet is full of cows.

Guest (2): What I mean to say is what exists between any two of the planets of Sri Krsna.

Prabhupada: What exists?

Guest (2): In the two abodes of the plenary expansion of Krsna. What exists?

Prabhupada: Plenary? Yes, Krsna is expanding millions and millions forms. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. That is Krsna. Isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. He is expanded, and He's living in your heart, my heart, ant's heart, everyone's heart. These are expansions, Paramatma.

Guest (9) (Indian man): Sir, his point is what exists between the planets?

Guest (2): This intervening medium?

Prabhupada: So you do not know the outer space? Outer space? The space is there. Just this planet, sun planet, there is space between... You do not know this? Eh?

Guest (2): Do you mean to say there is no space between His planets?

Prabhupada: I mean to say. Now you mean to say also. You do not know there is space difference between one planet to another?

Guest (2): Unless it is bounded by space.

Prabhupada: So whatever it may be, there is difference. Just like you are existing. I am existing. There is space. So what is the difficulty?

Guest (2): No, but actually it is beyond space and time.

Guest (9): Spiritual planets, he means to say.

Guest (2): They are beyond space.

Guest (4): They are beyond time and space.

Prabhupada: Yes. So what does he mean? What does he mean?

Guest (10): What is your point?

Prabhupada: The point is that... You can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutaḥ; [Bs. 5.37]. Krsna is in the Goloka planet which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati, tad aham asnami: [Bg. 9.26] "Anyone offering Me in devotion patram puspam phalam toyam, I eat." Now, Krsna is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Krsna says, "Yes, I do." That is Krsna. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of sastra that although He is far, far away, within your heart. Anḍantara-stha-para... He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas, that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Krsna and Krsna's activities you have to learn from Krsna. That is Bhagavad-gita. You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not... Because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it.

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jñanam
jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 4.34]

This is a different phase of knowledge. By your material calculation it will be difficult. The same thing, Krsna says, asnami: "I eat." So Krsna is far, far away. How does He eat?

Guest (2): It is said there that holy planets is the...

Prabhupada: Who says? Who says? Who is the sayer? An imperfect person, that's all.

Guest (2): No, it is in the Bhagavatam. That's what I am saying.

Prabhupada: Oh, what is that?

Guest (2): That holy planets exist between the lotus stem that's sprouting from navel of Krsna. But there are many planets, millions of planets...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That is all explained there. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anḍa-nathaḥ; [Bs. 5.48]. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya. The Maha-Visnu's breathing and with the breathing innumerable planets are coming, brahmanḍas are coming out. Yasya eka nisvasita-kalam atha avalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anḍa-nathaḥ;. Jagad-anḍa means universe, and jagad-anḍa-nathaḥ; means Brahma. Millions of Brahmas living within the breathing period of Maha-Visnu. So we have to accept this Vedic knowledge. You cannot compare with your limited knowledge. That is not...

Guest (4): His argument is that everything is bound by space.

Prabhupada: Yes, space is there.

Guest (4): No, it's in the pits of the...

Prabhupada: Space. Space grows, Brahman. Brhatvad brhannatvat.(?) Brahman means the greatest. The space is considered to be the greatest. So it is not only greatest but it is expanding more and more. It is becoming greater and greater. Just like some children. They made some foam, soap. It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger. It is like that. It comes from the breathing period but as soon as come out it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. That is brhatvad brhannatvat, Brahman, the greatest. A small seed of banyan tree, very small, you cannot... It becomes bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, and so big tree. It is... You see daily how it is coming. Can you make such seed, you scientist? Can you make? Then? Why do you compare your poor knowledge with Krsna's knowledge? That is your poor fund of knowledge. You are thinking that "Krsna may be like me." You can just compare the small banyan tree seed, just like a mustard seed, and it contains such a big tree, not only big tree, millions of seeds also, containing another millions of big trees. Can you make such seed? Hm? You scientists, can you make? You tell me. Can you prepare that seed? Then what you are scientists? See Krsna's science. Don't compare yourself with Krsna's science even.

Guest (2): No, one thing, if you say Goloka is infinite we should be existing within Gokula. How is it that we are without Gokula?

Prabhupada: Yes, we are within Krsna; therefore you are within Gokula.

Guest (2): Krsna is within us.

Prabhupada: Yes. And Krsna is without. That is Krsna, antar bahiḥ;. Antar bahiḥ;. Kunti says in her prayers that "Krsna, You are antar bahiḥ;. Still, people cannot understand. You are... Without, You are existing, and within, You are..." Still, they are so rascal, they cannot understand. Antar bahiḥ;. Krsna is without, Krsna is within, but they cannot see. That is their misfortune. Anḍantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. Krsna is within the paramanu, atom. Can you find out Krsna? He says, isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam hrd... [Bg. 18.61]. He is within your heart. Can you find out? Then where is your science? It is already indicated that He is here. Find out. How you can find out? The dimension of the soul is given, one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. The tip of the hair, you divide into ten thousand parts and that one part is the dimension of the soul. How can you find out? Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca jivo bhagaḥ; sa vijñeyaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Everything is written there. Now you find out the measurement. You cannot find out measurement of the tip of the hair. And you have to divide into ten thousand parts. Then the measurement of the soul will come. So how can you do it? But they are described in the sastra. So go and see arati. (end)