Pusṭa Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, as young children we used to have to put our hand over our heart and say a pledge to the flag, in America. And if one didn't say it, they were thrown out of school. They changed that law now. It's not required. It used to be.

Prabhupada: Mental concoction will be changed. Manorathenasati dhavato bahiḥ; [SB 5.18.12]. Their only business is mental concoction: today it is good, tomorrow it is bad. That is mental concoction. If mind likes it, it is good; if mind does not like it, it is bad. No standard. [break]

Hari-sauri: They have hospitals for animals, if your animal gets sick.

Pusṭa Krsna: Mostly dogs and cats, birds.

Hari-sauri: The animal that was making the noise was the man on the porch. (laughs)

Vipina: Many people have horses in the neighborhood. They have horse shows, Srila Prabhupada. They spend lots of money on fancy horses, and in this way, one becomes greater than another by showing his horses. [break]

Prabhupada: ...slam the door. The door is secure or not? [break] ...trying to find out that happiness from this body, that is mistake. That happiness is there in the spirit soul, not this body. Happiness is our right. Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). By nature, we want happiness. Mistaking, where is the happiness. The living being, he is to enjoy happiness. But they are trying to give happiness to the body, which is dead. Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panḍitaḥ; [Bg. 2.11]. The body is dead from the very beginning, but they are trying to draw happiness from the dead matter.

Hari-sauri: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupada: Yes, and that is not being fulfilled. Therefore planning, sometimes this way, sometimes that way. Manorathenasati dhavato bahiḥ; [SB 5.18.12]. Mental concoction. Real platform they are missing. Sometimes sitting down, sometimes... (laughter) Happiness. When tired up, then come down. Punaḥ; punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30].

Hari-sauri: They come out for a quiet sit-down in the countryside, and they bunch together, hundreds at a time.

Rupanuga: They are coming to watch the fireworks. You see, from here, the fireworks are going to be very high in the sky. They can see it from this point. [break]

Prabhupada: ...celebration, independence from our point of view?

Hari-sauri: From our point of view, it doesn't have any meaning. For a conditioned soul to think that he's independent...

Prabhupada: It is foolishness.

Pusṭa Krsna: They think they're free from being controlled by the British, for example. Free from being controlled.

Prabhupada: There is some meaning. That's all right. But where is your independence? You are fully under the control of the laws of nature. So where is your independence?

Yadubara: There is none.

Prabhupada: Simply dog dancing is independence?

Vrsakapi: Ultimately, they are declaring their independence of God, Krsna. They can do as they like.

Prabhupada: Then where is that independence? You can declare anything. A crazy man can say anything, but where is your independence?

Rupanuga: In fact, they are bound up.

Prabhupada: Yes. Where is the question of independence? Whatever you do not want, it is being forced upon you. So where is your independence? Nobody wants any miseries. So everyone is miserable condition. Struggle for existence means to get out of miserable condition. So where is the independence? Now there is mist. How you can say you are independent? You cannot drive this mist, this fog. Unless sun rises, it cannot be cleared. So where is your independence? There may be so many accidents. Actually, it so happens. But you do not want. But here is an unfortunate. So where is your independence? It is not under your control. If the sun rises, then it can be dissipated. Otherwise, there is no question. Poor thoughts. What is here, this park?

Vrsakapi: That's a private community.

Pusṭa Krsna: Perhaps everyone is hopeful that the sun will rise for them.

Prabhupada: Yes, sun is not your father's servant. He may not. It is not under your control. That is the point. You may think so.

Hari-sauri: They can only be hopeful.

Prabhupada: That's it. Hope against hope. Independence means fully under your control. Whatever you like, you can do. Where is that independence?

prakrteḥ; kriyamanani
gunaiḥ; karmani sarvasaḥ;
ahankara-vimuḍhatma
kartaham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

Foolishly thinking that "I am independent." Has anyone anything to say?

Vrsakapi: I was thinking that they are talking of independence, but they cannot even become independent of old age and disease. Their body, they try to control things, but their own body is out of control.

Prabhupada: So many things.

Pusṭa Krsna: One may say that if there's no independence, then where is the question of initiative in the material world, taking initiative?

Prabhupada: Initiative? What is that question? Initiative I understand, but do you think that by taking initiative of independence you become independent, like this, by dancing and fireworks, you become independent? This is initiative, dancing like dogs, (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." (laughter) Does it have any meaning? Dance like a dog, that's all.

Hari-sauri: It's a big show, that's all.

Yadubara: They will say that they can do so many things.

Prabhupada: What they can do? They cannot do anything. At any moment, you can be kicked out, "Get out."

Yadubara: But they have choice within maya. Isn't that a fact?

Prabhupada: Choice?

Yadubara: Choice what to do in the material world, many different fields. They will say that they can do this or that.

Prabhupada: Many fields, that is also conditioned. That is conditioned, that is not independence.

Hari-sauri: One has choice to become a dog or a cat, or...

Prabhupada: Everything is conditioned. Therefore it is called conditioned life. There is no question of independence. That is foolishness. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that they are not independent, completely under the control of laws of material nature, and still they are thinking independent.

Rupanuga: It is like a prisoner in the prison house thinking he has some freedom.

Prabhupada: That freedom is danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhau.(?) Drowning the man in the water and, "Now you have independence, so breathe." (laughter) So he breathes in, "Ah! Ah!" "All right, you are now a little relieved, all right, again. Again become drown." "Oh! Save me, save me, save me, save me." "All right," take out, "now breathe, independently." This is independence. Danda jane raj jana nadi secu bhai.(?) The rascal does not know "I am breathing independent, but at any moment I can be drowned again." Very correct example, danda jane raja jana nadi secu bhai.(?) No independence. Independence is only there when you fully surrender to Krsna. You surrender your all independence to Krsna. Then there is. "Krsna, I have foolishly acted as independent, so many lives. Now I surrender all my independence at Your lotus feet. If You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can...," that is independence. Otherwise, there is no independence. All foolishness. Ahankara-vimuḍhatma. By false egotism, he's thinking that "I am independent."

Rupanuga: Misusing.

Prabhupada: Misusing the energy. Yesterday, some two and half million the government has spent, and we also, combined together, we have spent ten million by power, gas, going there and coming. So many cars. Another ten million. So all these twelve million, three, thirteen million dollars spent for nothing. Dancing like dogs, independence, maya. [break] (out of car) Ask him this question.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada was saying in the car that yesterday the American people were declaring their independence. So he's asking what is the value to it.

Svarupa Damodara: What is the value of it? They are enjoying their senses.

Prabhupada: Now dog dancing. What is that song? Dog dancing? I sang that song?

Hari-sauri: (sings) "We are independent, we are independent."

Svarupa Damodara: (laughs) That is the spirit of patriotism.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, you can say any name, any style or any trademark. Where is the independence? That is the question.

Svarupa Damodara: But Srila Prabhupada blessed yesterday around the Capitol. There were so many people, and they seemed like they liked...

Prabhupada: So many people, there are so many earthworms also. Ants also, gathered together. Does it mean they are independent? Hare Krsna. You know the earthworms? They heap up earth and disappear. So you are, if you take it in that way, that big, big buildings, just like earthworms gathering up earth and then disappears. Actually that is the... Like the worms, we gather together and become a nation and apply all our energy, heaps of buildings, then finished. We go somewhere, you go somewhere. And who knows what he's going to be next life? Everything is going like that, family, community, national. Like the same earthworm, they gather so much huge dipi..., what is called dipi (?)in English?

Svarupa Damodara: Some sort of manure.

Prabhupada: We are dipi. (?)We are dipi. We dipi. You have seen?

Devotee: Teepee?

Svarupa Damodara: No, big heaps, mountains, hills?

Prabhupada: Not hills. Anyway, small or big, they gather together and then goes away, finished by the laws of nature. Washington, he gave you independence, but where he is? What he is doing? Where is that person who gave you independence?

Vipina: Would you like to walk this way today, Prabhupada?

Svarupa Damodara: There is a basic difference between the earthworm and the man.

Prabhupada: No difference. It is also living entity, you are also living entity.

Svarupa Damodara: But difference in the sense that the earthworm is, actually, it is not trying to violate the laws of nature. Just follows.

Prabhupada: No, apart from that, the process of life is the same, biological. These rascals say that there is no soul of the animal, but is it correct biologically?

Svarupa Damodara: That is biologically wrong.

Prabhupada: Yes, you see the way physical and atomical constitution of the animal and the man, the same. If you say man has soul, then the animal has also soul. If you deny that man has no soul, then you can also deny. But so far physiological... They, in the biological laboratory, they dissect the frogs to see the similar arrangement. So how you can you say the frog has no soul? Hare Krsna.

Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada, on Saturday Svarupa Damodara was talking about the scientific proof of the Absolute Truth from the Krsna conscious point of view. When one realizes Krsna, the Absolute Truth, does one also see like how the physical world is manifesting itself? Do we understand all physical laws, how chemicals are combining, or...? What do we actually understand when we understand the Absolute Truth?

Prabhupada: Absolute Truth, there is direction. Scientific explanation is... You were showing the picture that everything is being performed under some direction, not whimsically. Therefore there is somebody dictating.

Sadaputa: You see the cause of everything?

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna.

Vipina: These are the natural falls here, Prabhupada, not manmade.

Prabhupada: Ah, where?

Vipina: Not manmade. [break] It is not necessary to take millions of years for life to develop, because within five days an egg is there and life is being manifest. But scientists are saying it took millions of years to come to that stage where in five days it would only take life to become manifest.

Prabhupada: Then why you are waiting millions of years? Accept that millions of years passed, now let us have it in five days. Why you are again asking to wait for millions of years? If it has passed? Rascal. From the sky, Atlantic, wherefrom... Big, big chunks like mountains constantly coming, cut-cut-cut-cut-cut-cut. In Canada, big, big chunks.

Pusṭa Krsna: Ice?

Prabhupada: Ice, flood, every second.

Hari-sauri: Down the fall?

Prabhupada: Yes. Not from Canada, somewhere else, the Atlantic. And it is falling in the Atlantic Ocean. That broke the Titanic.

Pusṭa Krsna: Yes, iceberg.

Prabhupada: Yes, iceberg. Throughout the whole year, every second coming. [break] ...trees have fallen are grown like that?

Vrsakapi: Old trees, Srila Prabhupada, dead ones.

Prabhupada: So the fall goes that side?

Rupanuga: Yes. There's another place—I'm not exactly sure; I think it's down much further—where there's much bigger falls. This is just a small place. It's not the main falls. We can go there on another walk, I think, if you want to see the big falls.

Prabhupada: Chicken is giving life to the egg within five days, and you are scientist, you have to wait for millions of years. So chicken is better than you. (laughter) Why, rascal, you claim as scientist? Better, a chicken is better than you. Chicken is giving just after sitting on the egg. In five days, there is living entity. You rascal, you have to wait. So why you talk? Better don't talk. It is better not to talk than to talk foolish. Where is the scientist?

Svarupa Damodara: If they don't talk, then don't get jobs.

Prabhupada: That's it. Then they'll say plainly that "I'm hungry; give some food. Then I'll not talk nonsense. Give me some food." That's all. Take it. Tell the truth.

Svarupa Damodara: If they talk these things, they can get money from the government, millions of dollars.

Prabhupada: That's all right. So instead of talking all nonsense, tell freely that "I am hungry, give me some food."

Svarupa Damodara: Actually, that's what happens in principle.

Prabhupada: They have finished all their talks. So far as I know, these so-called scientists, they have finished their business. Now they have no other means than to bluff. To get their salary.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, actually the research is also getting more and more difficult.

Prabhupada: Yes, what they'll research? Everything finished.

Pusṭa Krsna: Their imagination is running out.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, the ideas are running out. That's why now they are doing on the biological sciences mainly.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. There is another nonsense. Why they are checking the flow?

Vipina: The water is too rough for the boats to travel, so they made this artificial canal so boats could travel without getting wrecked, and they could transport their items of sense gratification in that way. They used to have mules that pulled the boats with ropes alongside here, these pathways, pulled them through the canal.

Prabhupada: It will grow mosquitoes, mosquito plant.

Svarupa Damodara: Mosquitoes. When the devotees came back from India, many got malaria, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: So I think we got to do something next year.

Prabhupada: Get a mosquito curtain. That's all. Get a mosquito curtain. In India everywhere there is mosquito. I think in your country also.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes, many mosquitoes. They are also in Florida, many mosquitoes, when it rains.

Prabhupada: Tropical climate, there is mosquitoes. [break] That is falls?

Hari-sauri: No, it's just a ravine.

Sadaputa: One of the members of the temple here, Prabhupada, is a doctor, and he was doing some research into malaria, saying that many of the chemicals that they were using to kill these mosquitoes in India are becoming ineffectual. And now the mosquitoes are bigger and they aren't able to control it, so malaria is going to be a problem during the breeding season this year, much worse problem they've created for themselves.

Prabhupada: There is a place in India, Jabalpura, there is a fall passing, Narmada, and these stones are all marble, first class. Very nice place. I went there.

Hari-sauri: You mentioned in Hawaii how there are planets where instead of having grains of sand on the beach, they have jewels.

Prabhupada: Yes. Jewels.

Sadaputa: Some scientists find it hard to understand the description of different planets wherein there are oceans of milk, because we know that there's oceans of water here, and that water has to be there to create rain...

Prabhupada: So why the rascal carry this idea there? Has he seen everything?

Sadaputa: No, but he cannot understand how an ocean...

Prabhupada: So how he can understand? He's a fool. How he can understand? [break] ...into the moon planet, what does he understand about water there? There are so many millions and trillions of planets. How he can understand what is there?

Devotee (1): Where did the astronauts go?

Prabhupada: They'll go to hell (laughter). To pick up some sand, as if sand is not there.

Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada, is maya especially empowering the scientists to come up with nonsense?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Sadaputa: It is all coming from Krsna, though, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because you want to be fool, Krsna makes you a better fool.

Sadaputa: He's also the greatest cheat.

Prabhupada: [break] ...to become devotee. And if you want to become rogue, He'll give you all facility to become rogue. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. He's so kind.

Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada, we're doing all these studies about science from a Krsna conscious point of view, and yet the gopis didn't care anything for this; they just simply wanted to love Krsna.

Prabhupada: They did not care for anything except Krsna. Therefore they are all perfect. Harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21].

Sadaputa: Do we accept the way bacteria's reproduce, by fission, splitting in half? I know Kapiladeva instructs there are four different methods—the egg, the lump of flesh, etc. The scientists are saying that bacteria split in half and produce two daughter cells.

Prabhupada: Bacteria is produced from fermentation. Sveda-ja. Just like nasty bedding, from your perspiration, if you don't clean, then bugs will come. Sveda-ja. In India, the Europeans they eat meat, and automatically bugs and germs come within their coat and shirt due to bad perspiration.

Hari-sauri: When you say that they're born from perspiration like cockroaches, does that mean that the eggs are laid by the female and then the atmosphere of perspiration enables the eggs to be hatched? Like that?

Prabhupada: No, from the perspiration automatically it comes.

Sadaputa: Prabhupada, we say that everything is situated on desire, and as a person surrenders to Krsna, ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11], He rewards accordingly. But people don't understand. Just like if there's a mother and father, and the child is not doing well, they try to mold that child's desire properly, the way that they see as proper.

Prabhupada: Yes, He's coming, Krsna, personally, "Rascal, give up all these ideas. Surrender to Me." But who is accepting it? He's coming for this purpose; He's leaving His instruction, Bhagavad-gita; He's sending His devotee; but who is caring to accept that? He's very much anxious to do good to you. If you don't accept, what can be done?

Vipina: In the case of a devotee...

Prabhupada: Devotees, they accept. Therefore they are happy. And they'll be happy. They'll go back to home happy. One who accepts, he becomes happy.

Vipina: Well, in the case where a devotee is definitely sincerely following your instructions and applying himself to all these principles that Krsna has outlined, then when there's difficulty for him, how is he to understand that?

Prabhupada: He cannot understand immediately. He must be patient. Utsahan dhairyat. Dhairya means patience. He cannot, if you have sown some seed, you cannot expect immediately tree and fruits. You must wait. You must nourish the plant, water it. Sravana-kirtana-jale karaye secana [Cc. Madhya 19.152].

Vipina: But if there is some difficulty that causes so much trouble in your service...

Prabhupada: That is impatience. That is impatience. Either he does not do properly his duty, or he is impatient.

Hari-sauri: Impatience means fruitive. Fruitive. He's looking for some results.

Prabhupada: Immediate result, immediately.

Vipina: But isn't there a point, Prabhupada, at which, you know, you can expect that you've been doing the right things, so there should be some relief?

Prabhupada: Everything takes time. Suppose a girl is married. So she wants a child. It does not mean today she's married and next day child. It is not possible. Wait. You'll have child.

Devotee (1): That is faith, Prabhupada? If the woman has faith in the husband...?

Prabhupada: Faith or no faith, if they live husband and wife, there will be child. That's all. [break]

Vipina: That's why they had to build this canal, because it was too rocky for boats. [break]

Prabhupada: ...potency of hari-nama-kirtana, everyone will join. We have to be sincerely working, then everything... Krsna will. Natural, even child, drunkard, sane man, everyone was.

Vipina: Yes, they were all dancing.

Prabhupada: The proof was there.

Vipina: You said last night that actually they all want to dance, but they're artificially checking. [break]

Prabhupada: Birth, death. (laughter)

Svarupa Damodara: I saw Niagara Falls, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: I have seen.

Svarupa Damodara: You have seen? How do you like it?

Prabhupada: Oh, very nice. The water is very clean. Isana took me there when I was (at) Buffalo.

Svarupa Damodara: It's the biggest fall in the world.

Prabhupada: Biggest fall?

Devotees: No.

Svarupa Damodara: No?

Prabhupada: No, I have seen in Jabalpura, that is also very big fall.

Hari-sauri: There is one in Africa as well.

Pusṭa Krsna: Victoria Falls. I've seen that. It's a mile wide.

Prabhupada: Vancouver.

Pusṭa Krsna: In Victoria, Rhodesia.

Hari-sauri: In Africa there's a very big fall.

Pusṭa Krsna: That's not the biggest one either though. The biggest fall is in Venezuela.

Vipina: Might be some on some other planets we don't know about.

Pusṭa Krsna: Has there ever been debates on the authenticity of modern science, or is this the first time modern science has been challenged in the world?

Prabhupada: India, Vedic civilization never cared for anything which is searched out by imperfect human beings. They never cared for it. Because he knows the man who is searching after, he's imperfect. Whatever he'll do, that is imperfect. Therefore neglect it. That is Vedic civilization. Sruti-pramana: whether it is evident from the srutis, from the Vedas. Otherwise, they reject it.

Vipina: Prabhupada, if spiritual life and Krsna are stronger than maya, then how is it that religion was ever overcome to the extent it is now? In Kali-yuga it's so much neglected, whereas in past ages we learn that it wasn't neglected. How is it that maya got such a stronghold?

Prabhupada: There is a time, just like young man and old man. Old man is dwindling, young man is growing. It is a question of time. Kali-yuga is bad time. Therefore maya has got chance to flourish.

Hari-sauri: Eight minutes to seven, Srila Prabhupada. If those people in India who are aware of the actual science, though, if they had come out and spoken against material scientists...

Prabhupada: I am speaking.

Vrsakapi: You're the only one though, Prabhupada.

Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada, one problem we face with students and scientists, when we present Krsna conscious philosophy, they say...

Prabhupada: No, no. We don't condemn the scientists. We say that "Take credit as much as you can. But why do you defy the existence of God?" That is our protest.

Sadaputa: They want to be God.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness.

Devotee (1): Is Kali-yuga the age when desires become manifest like this?

Prabhupada: Answer him.

Pusṭa Krsna: In other words, the question is that do people who have such types of low-grade desires take birth in the Kali-yuga. So the question is that, naturally, yes, everyone is taking birth according to their karma. But we can change our destiny by becoming Krsna conscious. Just like if a sick man is offered medicine, so if he takes medicine, then he can become cured from his disease. Similarly, Kali-yuga means very high temperature, and the medicine is there in the form of the holy name, harer nama [Adi 17.21]. So we have to take advantage. Otherwise everyone in Kali-yuga is condemned.

Prabhupada: Have we not published that "You have created 747. All right, take credit. But you cannot make a mosquito with pilot. Can you?" "No." "So why..., how can you defy the supreme creator?" We are taking it, there is supreme creator.

Svarupa Damodara: That basic point they find it hard to understand.

Prabhupada: No. Because they are blind. It is common sense, that you have created the 747. So somebody must have created this, a small insect. This is common sense. You cannot see Him: that is your bad fortune. But somebody has done it.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that's our logic.

Vrsakapi: To be able to be so fooled, that is the greatest wonder, how it's so obvious that there's a creator, but yet one can say there is no creator.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That we are protesting, that "You rascal, you stop this nonsense talking." There is son and there is mother; there must be father. This is conclusion. And "I do not see father. I do not see that." But without father, how there can be son? This is intelligence.

Devotee (2): Prabhupada, one the one hand you say the scientists are rascals, and on the other you say not to condemn them.

Prabhupada: No, the rascal means when they say there is no God. Then they are rascals. Here is a scientist—he does not say that there is no God. Anyone who says there is no God, he's a rascal. He may be scientist, philosopher, or anyone. (break—back in car)

Hari-sauri: I'm a bit puzzled about this, these entities that are born from perspiration, like that. It seems that there's no father and mother, yet like we were just using the argument that there must be a father and mother.

Prabhupada: No, there is father and mother. The supreme father is Krsna, and mother is nature, ultimately. So perspiration is also another form of nature. Yes. There's always father and mother.

Yadubara: There's no material father, though? In that case?

Prabhupada: Material father is not material. Real father is Krsna. He may come in so many ways.

Pusṭa Krsna: The thing is that the scientists may isolate some cockroaches in a box, and they will watch the cockroaches secrete eggs and this or that or whatever—I don't know exactly how the cockroaches...

Prabhupada: Not, give up cockroach. There are many other living entities, they come from perspiration. Take for..., bugs. Bugs, they come from perspiration. Many, many come by fermentation.

Hari-sauri: Yes, but it seems that form of the bug must come from the form of another bug.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: So it's very difficult to understand how it comes from perspiration.

Prabhupada: The form is coming directly. Why from another? The form is, the birth is coming directly.

Hari-sauri: From the perspiration.

Prabhupada: And those who are coming, they will take that form, buglike form, and drink blood. That is all destined.

Hari-sauri: So just like a spirit soul, say, in a human form.

Prabhupada: Spirit soul, according to his desires, he's gotten that body. But that body is coming from perspiration. That is the way.

Hari-sauri: So like in our case, the spirit soul takes shelter in the semen.

Prabhupada: Yes, according to his desire he's given shelter to such and such place, and he comes out with body.

Hari-sauri: And in that case he take shelter in the perspiration.

Prabhupada: Yes. Daiva-netrena. That is by superior administration, he has to take shelter and take out the body, come and act. It requires little brain. The dull meat-eaters cannot understand, the drunkards and meat-eaters.

Rupanuga: They do not even know about that kind of birth.

Hari-sauri: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: No, even in their meat there will be so many germs. What they know?

Rupanuga: The common people think that by cooking the meat they kill so many worms and germs in their meat.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Rupanuga: But studies have shown that certain worms and germs are not killed, and they are ingested into the body and cause diseases.

Prabhupada: You take the yogurt, even by microscope, you see so many germs.

Hari-sauri: Yogurt is made by...

Pusṭa Krsna: Even a drop of water there is...

Prabhupada: Bacteria. Lactic acid. Bacteria.

Rupanuga: I've seen that these cattle that are raised for eating, they are not like dairy cows. Dairy cows are much cleaner. Beef cattle are very dirty animals. They have no clean habits. They are almost like pigs.

Pusṭa Krsna: Still, they should be protected, though. They should be used for plowing.

Prabhupada: No, if they are not cows, there is no need of protection. When gives milk, that is cow.

Rupanuga: These animals are created by man actually. History...

Pusṭa Krsna: But it would have been a bull.

Prabhupada: Bull also required, because cows alone cannot give milk unless united with bull.

Pusṭa Krsna: The philosophy now with the farmers is that if there's a bull born, generally they kill it.

Prabhupada: That is the law in England. You cannot keep a bull.

Hari-sauri: The only reason they keep a male animal is just for meat. Bullocks, one year old, and then they send them to the slaughterhouse.

Prabhupada: Everywhere, in India, they require bulls and... Generally, they are not inclined to kill. So they are engaged in...

Pusṭa Krsna: But otherwise, when Krsna says go-raksya, He means the female, the cow, giving milk.

Rupanuga: Actually, in these beef animals, if...

Prabhupada: Go means species, means both bull and cow, but generally go means cow.

Hari-sauri: Of the two, the cow is the more important because it gives milk.

Rupanuga: One thing is these beef cows, the female, they only produce enough milk for a little offspring. They have made it like that. You cannot get enough milk from them. They have little bags, only just for their own offspring. They have made it like that.

Prabhupada: Manmade.

Rupanuga: Yes, a manmade idea.

Hari-sauri: How does that fit in with the species of life, Srila Prabhupada, when they combine two different species, artificial?

Prabhupada: You can make, by arrangement, artificial, cross-breeding.

Hari-sauri: But that cannot be counted as one of the 8,400,000 forms. I was thinking last night when we were coming down this road that it's very nice and smooth, but then I thought you were saying the other morning that in the heavenly planets they are made from coral and so many different things. Here we're using tarmac.

Prabhupada: The more you go higher planetary system, the standard of living is many, many thousand times better than this. Many, many thousand times.

Rupanuga: We can't even imagine it now.

Hari-sauri: What to speak of the spiritual world.

Prabhupada: Just suppose here are stones, there are pearls. You cannot imagine.

Hari-sauri: Lying on the roadside. [break]

Prabhupada: ...Western scientists, philosophers, they are all Dr. Frogs. They simply calculating three feet water, that's all. As soon as you speak to them about Atlantic Ocean, they say, "Oh, it is impossible." Froggish brain. [break] ...word has come, kupa-manḍukya-nyaya, the frog in the well.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada, is that example also given in the Bhagavatam? Frog in the well? Sometimes you use all these different examples, and they are all there in the Bhagavatam. I was just wondering if this frog in the well was also there.

Prabhupada: No.

Hari-sauri: You use very graphic examples; they're very perfect.

Prabhupada: No, my Guru Maharaja used to use to place so many examples, (laughs) I do not know all of them. No, there is a book, Nyaya-sastra, logic. You'll find all these things.

Pusṭa Krsna: Is that the Niti-sastra?

Prabhupada: Niti-sastra is different. This is Nyaya-sastra.

Pusṭa Krsna: Logic. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a student.

Prabhupada: Yes, logician. (end)