Prabhupada: No, no. Curtain.

Radhavallabha: Curtain, oh. Close?

Hari-sauri: Shut it now. Shade, the shade.

Ramesvara: I showed Richard the "Hare Krsna People" movie that Yadubara made, and Yamuna mataji made some prasadam for him to taste. So he's gotten some introduction already.

Richard: OK. You came here not too many years ago. Did you ever expect that it would grow into what it has over the years?

Prabhupada: We came in 1965.

Richard: Eleven years ago. And in a relatively short period of time you've managed to gather around you a great number of people. Has it surprised you or...

Prabhupada: Yes, I did not expect. When I came here I did not expect, because we have got so many strictures, so I did not expect that here the people will accept my proposal.

Richard: Your proposal?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because our proposal is "No sinful life." No more illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxicants. So I did not expect that anyone will accept this proposal. (laughs)

Richard: Are those three sort of proscriptions...

Devotee: Four.

Richard: Four, sorry. Are they prerequisites to accepting your knowledge?

Prabhupada: The real thing is.... You can easily understand that "I am not this body; there is a living force within the body." Is it very difficult to understand? This body is not sufficient. The real body means the living force within the body. Is it not? You are talking; what is the difference, you're not talking? Now, if the body is dead, you cannot talk anymore, finished. So what is that force within you that is causing you to talk? Do you know anything about that?

Richard: Have I thought about it, me, personally?

Prabhupada: No. Have you ever thought about it?

Richard: Yes.

Prabhupada: So what is that?

Richard: What did I think about it?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Richard: Um, that I, I've always viewed myself as my self.

Prabhupada: Myself, that's what..., you are not this body. You are not.... Body is not yourself. Did you ever think of it?

Richard: Well, when I say "myself," I should perhaps define it. Myself being all that I can recall being before, as well as my present, ah...

Prabhupada: How do you distinguish between a dead man or living man?

Richard: Um, well...

Prabhupada: The living man is important, but the dead man is not important.

Richard: Not his physical body, no.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then within the physical body, there is something which is making him living man. Is it not?

Richard: Um...

Prabhupada: What is the dead man? Something is missing; therefore it is dead. Otherwise the body is there.

Richard: Right. Okay. His ability to, to...

Prabhupada: Yes. Body is.... The same hands, legs, mouth, eyes, ears, hair, everything is there, but now they're crying, "Oh, Mr. such and such gone, oh, finished." What is that finished?

Richard: Well, his ability to share...

Prabhupada: What is that ability? That is my question. Why this important man is now useless although the same hands, legs, mouth, everything is there, but it is useless?

Richard: Well, he's no longer...

Prabhupada: What was the important thing?

Richard: The important thing was his ability to share physically and intellectually.

Prabhupada: Yes, that means that important thing was within the body; now it is missing. That is distinction between dead man and living man.

Richard: As far as I'm concerned that's it.

Prabhupada: That is very important thing. This nice body can work on account of presence of that important thing. Otherwise, useless.

Richard: Right.

Prabhupada: So we are preaching about that important thing.

Richard: Isn't that the object of all philosophies, both personal and...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the real philosophy. You must take care of the living force within the body.

Richard: Right, and aren't there many ways that you can do that, aren't there many approaches...?

Prabhupada: First of all, let us understand the importance of that living force. Then we shall find out means how to keep it fit. People are not aware of this living force. They accept this dead body as important. That is material civilization. They are taking care of the body but not the living force which is making this body important.

Richard: And you think that is a problem with...?

Prabhupada: That is wanted. Education means to understand that, what is the important thing within this body. Otherwise, cats and dogs, they are also working with the bodily concept of life. The dog is jumping, barking. He's thinking, "I'm dog, I'm this body."

Richard: Okay, as far as nurturing the body through knowledge, is the goal of what you teach to eliminate obstacles in...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: That is the goal?

Prabhupada: Everything is aimed at to eliminate obstacles. Now, so far the body is concerned, there are so many obstacles. Everyone is struggling hard, that is for struggle for existence, to get out of the obstacles. Whole struggle for existence is to save ourselves from the obstacles.

Richard: Right. How do you determine what's an obstacle?

Prabhupada: Obstacles, the ultimate obstacle is that you don't like to die, but you can die any moment. This is greatest obstacle. Why don't you think of it? You are sitting here, you are young man. So you may die immediately.

Richard: Uh huh.

Prabhupada: That is the greatest obstacle. You have got so many plans to do in your life, but you can die any moment. Is it not obstacle?

Richard: The presence of death or the possibility of death?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Um, to me, I don't think really it is, for me.

Prabhupada: Why? Why not? You don't like to die.

Richard: I don't think.... That doesn't bother me.

Prabhupada: It bothers. Suppose you have got some plan you have to do—everyone has got some plan, ideas, some improvement—but what is the guarantee that you'll be able to execute that plan? Because you can die at any moment.

Richard: Right, there is none.

Prabhupada: So it is not obstacle?

Richard: No.

Prabhupada: How is that, is not obstacle? You are planning something, that "I shall do this..." You may not be very important man, but there are many important men. The leaders of the society, they are planning that "I shall make my nation like this way, my family like this way." Everyone is planning. But where is the guarantee that he'll be able to fulfill the plan? Death may take place any moment. So is it not obstacle?

Richard: Hm. I really don't view it as an obstacle, the fact that my plans may be altered.

Prabhupada: You may not. You may not, but we have got personal experience that people do not want to die until he fulfills some, his brainwork plan. I have seen. One, my friend, he was dying, he was at that time fifty-four years old only, and he was begging the doctor, "My dear doctor, medical man, can you not give me four years time only, I can fulfill my plan?" He was very big businessman, so he was planning something to do, but doctor said that "You cannot survive." So he was begging the mercy of the doctor, "Doctor, can you not give me at least four years time?" As if the doctor can give him life. He was feeling this is obstacle: "I'm going to die without fulfilling my plan." I think that psychology is everywhere.

Richard: But, but generally, how can...?

Prabhupada: You may not be afraid of, but generally.

Richard: Generally, how can you determine an obstacle...

Prabhupada: I've seen it, I've seen it, that he was begging the doctor, "Please give me four years life. Give me some medicine so that I'll live at least for four years, I'll finish my plan." I've seen it. You are the first man that you are not afraid of death (devotees laugh), but I see everyone is afraid of death.

Richard: I...

Prabhupada: You see. As soon as there is immediately siren, I've seen it, also...

Richard: Are you afraid of death?

Prabhupada: No. My position is different, because I know I'm not going to die. My position is different. Because we are confident, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. We are not going to die. Death is no question for us.

Richard: Umhm. Okay.

Prabhupada: Therefore we are not afraid of death. That is another thing. But generally, people, they are actually. Are you not afraid of disease?

Richard: I would not wish to be in great pain or agony, no.

Prabhupada: But there is pain, as soon as you are in disease, there is great pain.

Richard: Uh, yes, but there are quick deaths and there are slow deaths.

Prabhupada: No. Everyone is afraid of this. Are you not afraid of old age and invalidity?

Richard: Not particularly. I mean, it's a part of life.

Prabhupada: You are liberated. (devotees laugh)

Ramesvara: Prabhupada said you are liberated.

Richard: I'm what?

Ramesvara: Liberated.

Richard: Oh. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Naturally, everyone, that is the problem of life. Otherwise, why there are so many medical colleges, drug shops and medicines, just to avoid disease? Otherwise, there was no need of arrangement. Everyone is afraid of disease, not to suffer from disease. That's a fact. If you say that you are not afraid of disease, that is something new. But unless we are afraid of disease, why there is this Memorial Hospital, this drug shop, this pharmacy? Why these things are required? We don't want it.

Richard: Do you...? You have a doctor, though, you said, right?

Prabhupada: No, I am not a doctor.

Richard: You have no doctor.

Prabhupada: My point is that these are the problems—birth, death, old age and disease. This is our point.

Richard: That these are the basic problems of most men?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Death, fears of death and disease.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone.

Richard: You too?

Prabhupada: Everyone, I am everyone also. I am also, I have taken up my translation work, Bhagavatam. So I am trying to live at least up to the time I finish my translation. That is also.... I do not wish to die before I finish. That is also.... Everyone is like that.

Richard: But what happens if you do die before you finish?

Prabhupada: Well, you are talking something extraordinary. Everyone has got some ambition, and he wants to do it, and death, disease, old age, these are impediments. That is the point. No one wants to die premature death. Family man, a family man wants to see that his sons are properly educated or they are well-placed, so on, so on, so many things. And if all of a sudden death comes, he becomes sorry, that "I could not finish my business." Therefore death is impediment.

Richard: You were widely respected in India before you came to the United States?

Prabhupada: Why bring that question? First of all, let us finish this question.

Richard: No, no, I'm getting to it. Ah, if you had died before you had come to the United States, would that have been a tragedy?

Ramesvara: Yes, that would have been a big tragedy for all of us. That is premature. That's the example Prabhupada is giving. If a man wants to educate his sons, but he dies before they can be educated, then, to him, that is a premature death. So therefore he does not want that. In fact he's afraid: "Please, I don't want to die before I see my sons educated." So that is a fear of death.

Prabhupada: Therefore death is an obstacle. That is the point.

Ramesvara: An obstacle to the goals of his life.

Prabhupada: One who has no responsibility, that is another thing. But a responsible man wants to finish the responsibility, and if death comes before that, that's an obstacle.

Richard: Um hm. Okay. Ah, how about smaller obstacles in life, though, than death? I mean this...

Prabhupada: This is the major obstacles, and subordinate to these obstacles there are hundreds and millions of obstacles.

Richard: There are millions of obstacles.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is the main obstacle.

Richard: Right, right, okay. But I mean, okay, you say most people are, almost everyone, except me perhaps, is concerned about death. Ah, but how about the smaller obstacles which nevertheless can make people very depressed, neurotic? How do you recognize and live with them or eliminate them?

Prabhupada: Our point is there are hundreds and millions of obstacles. If they are, I mean to say, summarized, they become birth, death, old age and disease. This is my point. There are hundred and thousands of obstacles, but if you take all of them and make a summary, then it comes four—birth, death, old age and disease.

Ramesvara: He wants to know, Srila Prabhupada, if these are the obstacles, how do we Krsna conscious people deal with these obstacles or eliminate these obstacles?

Prabhupada: Yes, that we are doing by Krsna consciousness movement.

Richard: How?

Prabhupada: Because if we try to understand Krsna, simply by understanding Him, I am going to get a life which will be free of all obstacles.

Richard: And how do you do that?

Prabhupada: That you see what we are doing.

Richard: By living this type of life?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Well, what about the people who don't live here at the asrama, people who live, if you want to call it, the outside world, ah...

Prabhupada: They are not getting the opportunity. We are giving the opportunity. You come here and live here.

Richard: This is the only way?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Living in an asrama.

Prabhupada: Not living..., to take the philosophy. Follow the policy or process; then your life is successful.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Just like our householders, they have their apartments, but they're always associated with Krsna's service.

Richard: Right.

Prabhupada: Just like we are writing so many books to give them enlightenment. This is the process. It is an educational movement, how to overcome these obstacles. That is the sum and substance.

Richard: Do you think there are any other ways which are equally effective?

Prabhupada: No.

Richard: Isn't the spiritual benefit that people in the asrama here get...

Prabhupada: First of all, you must know what is spirit. They do not know even what is spirit.

Richard: Well, okay, there are many contented people in the world, there are many people who are at peace with themselves...

Prabhupada: Contented-ass is contented. He has no problem. The best-contented living being is an ass. He has no complaint. So that is not civilization.

Richard: That is not what?

Prabhupada: That is not civilization, or life.

Richard: Okay, but being able to live with your limitations and be therefore content, ah, within those limitations...

Prabhupada: That I already said, that animal lives very content within his limitation. He doesn't like to improve. But that is not human life.

Richard: Well, okay, ah, but I know many people who are relatively contented and still growing.

Prabhupada: What is the contentment? If you have got the problems unsolved, that is ass's contentment. Ass does not know how to check death. He does not think of it. But a human being's intelligence says whether the disease can be checked, whether the death can be checked. That is human being. The ass cannot think. If we remain contented like an ass, so that is animal life.

Richard: Right, but still people carry on, people...

Prabhupada: Let them carry on. Ass is also carrying on. That is another thing. But distinction between ass's life and human life, the ass cannot estimate the impediments or the obstacles of life. A human being can see, and it is his duty how to overcome it.

Richard: Pardon me while I get that down. Um, yeah, okay, I guess what I'm saying then is that I know many people who do not live in asramas, who will...

Prabhupada: I am not advising that you live in asrama, but.... Just like here is an.... You see, McGill University. So they are giving permanent order of our books. So the university authorities, they are not coming to our asrama, but they'll get the benefit by reading our books.

Richard: Right. Okay. But I know people who have not had the benefit of reading your books, and yet, as far as I know, and I've gotten to know them very well, they seem to be living lives which, for them, work. The obstacles they can cope with, and I guess what I'm saying, or advancing, is that perhaps the...

Prabhupada: There are many men who do not go to the university and live peacefully. But that does not mean university is useless. Similarly, many men may not come to us, that does not mean this institution is useless. It has its importance for the serious men, not for the asses.

Richard: Right, but do you think...

Prabhupada: Just like this university, they are serious for education, and they are ordering our books. Others may not order; they are not reading. That means they are not serious.

Richard: Only the people who are...

Prabhupada: Yes. Knowledge is for the intelligent class of men.

Richard: But there are many types of knowledge, and there are many ranges, depths of knowledge.

Prabhupada: So many types, this is also one type of knowledge.

Richard: Right, it is not the only type, that's what I'm...

Prabhupada: No, there are different aims also. If you are interested to become an expert medical man, then the knowledge is different. If you want to become an engineer, the knowledge is different. Similarly, if he wants to overcome all the obstacles, then this is the education.

Richard: Um hm.

Prabhupada: This is the final.

Richard: What about other religions?

Prabhupada: Other..., you become interested in medical, you become a medical man, you become an engineer, you become other.... You take that education. But one who is interested to stop all obstacles of life, this is the only education.

Richard: This is the only one.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Have you studied other religions?

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore I'm saying. Without studying, how can I say? I am challenging, not saying. We are challenging. We are not saying only.

Richard: Um hm.

Prabhupada: If you want to overcome all obstacles of life, this is the only education. That's all. Or if you have different aims of life, there are different departments of knowledge. But if you want this knowledge, then this is the education.

Richard: According to you, this is the only spiritual knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: What you write about and have studied.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: What would you classify, ah, other works, say, the Koran or the Bible or any other religious...

Prabhupada: Well they are also aiming to this aim of life.

Richard: They are in the same aim.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Richard: But do you think they are successful?

Prabhupada: They are successful if they follow the education. Just like Christ, he's speaking of kingdom of God. So if you follow Christ, there is hope that you go to kingdom of God. But if you don't follow, you simply rubberstamp, "I am Christian," then it is useless.

Richard: But there are other...?

Prabhupada: Yes, they are of the same type.

Richard: Yes, but do they have any value as far as you are concerned?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, they have value.

Richard: Okay, that's what I was trying to get at.

Prabhupada: There is value.

Ramesvara: Prabhupada meant that the other branches of knowledge outside of our...

Richard: Oh, yes, right, I wasn't talking about that.

Ramesvara: That was mis...

Richard: Right, I wasn't talking about a technical or secular knowledge at all. I was talking about other spiritual philosophies.

Prabhupada: No. Any science, any knowledge who is trying to give enlightenment about God, there is the same line as we are doing.

Richard: Right, but those people who study say, okay, to use an example, the Pope. Now there is a man who has dedicated his whole life, publicly, personally, spiritually, however you define it, to Christianity, specifically to the Catholic Church. Now apparently, and for all intents and purposes, his life seems to work for him.

Prabhupada: The thing is, the Catholic Church is the original Church, I think.

Richard: The original Christian Church, yes.

Prabhupada: Then why there are so many varieties?

Richard: Well, because...

Prabhupada: Now hundreds and thousands of churches are there.

Richard: Right. Other people find that...

Prabhupada: That means they don't like Catholic Church. They don't like. So they are missing the point.

Richard: Of the Catholic Church.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: True, I agree. But is the point of the Catholic Church the only point that's to be made?

Prabhupada: And if you accept Christianity, then the Catholic process, I think—I do not know—that is only way.

Richard: But is the point that the Catholic Church makes the only point to be made?

Prabhupada: Not Catholic. I mean to say, any church original, authoritatively, that is genuine. If you deviate from that, then you cannot claim to that school.

Ramesvara: It's an example that if the Catholic Church is presenting the teachings of Jesus as it is, and then later on other churches deviate a little, then to deviate from the teachings of Jesus is bad, and to stick strictly to the teachings of Jesus is the only way, in Christianity. That's the idea.

Richard: Yes, but the goal is similar in Christianity.

Prabhupada: The goal cannot be similar. If you deviate, the goal is different.

Richard: No, no.... The.... Okay, the goal generally is the same.

Prabhupada: There is no question. Goal is one, so if you deviate, then you go away from the goal.

Richard: Right, but the goal seems to me, as I have studied Christianity...

Prabhupada: What is the goal?

Richard: The goal of Christianity is to make a better life here on earth for the followers of Christ and after death.

Prabhupada: That's nice. That is our preaching also.

Richard: That's your goal also. Okay...

Prabhupada: Just like a student is being trained up in medical college, and when he becomes practitioner, the same thing. There is no change. There is no change.

Richard: Yes, I think you are talking about specific...

Prabhupada: No, no, this is.... Take Christian religion. So going to the church, it is practicing how to establish relationship with Christ and God. So after death, if he's perfect, he goes back to home, back to Godhead.

Richard: Um hm, right.

Prabhupada: So this is practice. If one is interested in going back to home, back to Godhead, then this is the only way.

Richard: Okay, let me just say something, and then, you know, like, you can take it however you want. It seems to me that there all through life, men, all through history, men have been more or less striving for this same general goal-happiness here and here...

Prabhupada: No, no, same general goal.... You must speak.... If you say same general goal, everyone says, "This is also general goal, this is also general goal." You must specifically mention what is that.

Richard: Okay, that goal is happiness here on earth, and however you define happiness, security, well-being, food on the table, however you want to, and...

Prabhupada: But if somebody says that "I don't require to go to church for happiness. I find happiness by drinking. Let me go to the brothel and drink," that is also happiness. You cannot say. How can you say, "I don't care to go to the church. I am getting happiness here."

Richard: I'm thinking of it in a larger sense than that.

Prabhupada: Happiness must be happiness. It doesn't mean that because larger accepts something happiness, that is happiness. No. Happiness must be real happiness.

Richard: Okay, what do you define as real happiness?

Prabhupada: One may like it or not like it, that is not the question. Happiness is real happiness.

Richard: Right. Okay, that's what I'm talking about, spiritual happiness.

Prabhupada: So if you simply say happiness, if you do not explain what is real happiness, then somebody will say, "I'm feeling happiness by drinking here. Why you are asking me to go to the church? You go, I don't go." That's all. Then you have to explain what is real happiness. Whether that real happiness is obtainable by going to the church or going to the brothel, liquor house?

Richard: Well, I don't think that any...

Prabhupada: You don't think, but he thinks that "Here is happiness." You cannot induce him. He thinks. Just like few minutes ago you said that there is no obstacle, but we think there is obstacle. There is different thoughts. They don't care what is God, what is.... "I don't want to know what is God. I'm getting happiness," finished.

Richard: Okay, but continuing, you know, continuing, people are, okay.... People I think are basically the same in many respects as far as...

Prabhupada: No, no, that is wrong. That is wrong.

Richard: That is wrong. Okay, why?

Prabhupada: You see. I have already explained. One is getting happiness by drinking, and one is getting happiness by going to the church. You cannot say that they are the same.

Richard: Well I think they're the same in intent.

Prabhupada: Now what do you mean by that? First of all, describe what is happiness, whether drinking is happiness or going to the church is happiness. Therefore you have to define what is happiness. Then we have to select whether this happiness is obtainable in the liquor shop or in the church. You must have clear idea of happiness. And if you speak generally, then he will say, "I am getting happiness; why you are insisting me go to the church? I am getting happiness." Therefore you have to define what is happiness.

Richard: Okay, I would say happiness is the pursuit of, to you, what makes your life work, worthwhile.

Prabhupada: We are not working, we are not interested in working.

Richard: Well, when I say work, I mean what gives you an inner respect for yourself, um, yeah, I think it all boils down to self-respect, an appreciation of...

Prabhupada: What is this self-respect?

Richard: Self-respect? Self-respect would be an appreciation and cognizance of your spiritual and physical being.

Prabhupada: What is my actual being? Physical being or spiritual being?

Richard: Both. I mean they are part of, to me, they are one manifestation.

Prabhupada: And after death what happens?

Richard: Do I feel personally?

Prabhupada: No, everyone.

Richard: I think everyone has different ideas. There are many different ideas about what happens after death.

Prabhupada: Therefore we have to know what is reality.

Richard: What is reality.

Prabhupada: Therefore we have to know what is reality. Simply ideas will not do.

Richard: Okay, reality I would say is...

Prabhupada: If you do not know, how you will say? You say that you do not know, but how you will say, if you do not know what is reality?

Richard: Oh, I know what reality is.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Richard: Reality is a series of moments or a moment perceived by the senses.

Prabhupada: That I have already explained. The drunkard is feeling by drinking his senses are very satisfied, that is reality.

Richard: Sure, it's his reality.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then why should you canvass him, "Please come to the church and accept Christianity"?

Richard: Frankly, I don't know. I don't really know why he should be asked to go to church.

Prabhupada: Therefore.... Then there is no need of church. Everyone can do whatever he thinks reality. That is no standard reality.

Richard: No, reality is not in itself a goal. It just is.

Prabhupada: Then what is the goal?

Richard: I would say, you know, we discussed this earlier, it's a, it's trying to find what makes one's life worthwhile.

Prabhupada: Trying to find, that means you do not know.

Richard: No, I think life is a pursuit, I don't think it...

Prabhupada: What is that pursuit if you have no aim or objective? You are going to school, the object is you become a graduate. If you do not know what is the ultimate goal, what is this pursuit?

Richard: Why pursue something?

Prabhupada: You are going to school, college, suppose you are going to be graduate, but if you do not know what is the ultimate end of pursuit, then what is this pursuit? Simply blind?

Richard: No, it's, it's just trying to make your life work.

Prabhupada: There must be some goal, ultimate goal. That we must know. That is called pursuit. If you do not know what is the ultimate goal of life, then there is no meaning of pursuit.

Richard: Um.

Ramesvara: Prabhupada is talking about an absolute reality, not a relative reality.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: What is your definition of an absolute reality?

Prabhupada: That is final.

Richard: A goal.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Okay, and what is the absolute reality?

Prabhupada: Relative means it is understood in two ways. Absolute means there are no two ways, final. Final. So what is the final aim of our life? That we must know.

Richard: Do you know?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, we know, everyone, all of our students.

Richard: What is that absolute reality that is the absolute goal?

Ramesvara: The absolute goal is to understand that within this body there is a living force which is spiritual, and that spiritual force is a servant of God. It has a relationship with God. Apart from how you perceive the world through your senses, beyond that there is a soul which has a relationship with God. That is the absolute reality. You may perceive the world in so many ways through your senses, but beyond that, within your body there is a soul which is yearning for a relationship, a loving relationship with God. And if you neglect that relationship due to your senses...

Prabhupada: Ignorance.

Ramesvara: ...or ignorance, then you're missing the reality of life and you're living in an illusion. Due to your senses you're living, you could live, be living in illusion. The senses are not perfect instruments for understanding reality. There is another process for understanding reality. The senses are not perfect. Therefore one should not depend upon the senses to understand reality. There is a greater process.

Richard: And how is that found?

Prabhupada: You find out this verse: sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriyam grahyam.

Ramesvara: What's the second word, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Sukham atyantikam.

Ramesvara:

sukham atyantikam yat tad
buddhi-grahyam atindriyam
vetti yatra na caivayam
sthitas calati tattvataḥ;
[Bg. 6.21]

Prabhupada: Translation?

Ramesvara: It's combined with some other verse. "The stage of perfection is called trance, or samadhi, when one's mind is completely restrained from material mental activities by practice of yoga. This is characterized by one's ability to see the self by the pure mind and to relish and rejoice in the self. In that joyous state one is situated in boundless transcendental happiness and enjoys himself through transcendental senses. Established thus, one never departs from the truth, and upon gaining this he thinks that there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position one is never shaken even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This indeed is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact."

Prabhupada: That is translation?

Ramesvara: That is the translation.

Prabhupada: Purport.

Ramesvara: Purport. "By practice of yoga one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle, and after this one becomes situated in trance, or samadhi, which means that the yogi realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. Yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation. But they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga. There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the nondualist, but in this verse transcendental pleasure realized through transcendental senses is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declares in his Yoga-sutras: purusartha-sunyanam gunanam pratiprasavaḥ; kaivalyam svarupa-pratisṭha va citi-saktir iti. This cit-sakti, or internal potency, is transcendental. Purusartha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This oneness with the Supreme is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This clearance is actually liberation, or bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. The theory of nirvana—also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhagavatam this is called svarupena vyavasthitiḥ; [SB 2.10.6]. The Bhagavad-gita also confirms this situation in this verse. After nirvana, or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Krsna consciousness. In the words of the Bhagavatam, svarupena vyavasthitiḥ;: this is the real life of the living entity. maya, or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original, eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyam svarupa-pratisṭha va citi-saktir iti. This citi-sakti, or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedanta-sutras as anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). This natural, transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita." Should I keep reading Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Should I continue?

Prabhupada: There is still there?

Ramesvara: There is another page.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: "In the yoga system, as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samadhi, called samprajñata-samadhi and asamprajñata-samadhi. When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñata-samadhi. In the asamprajñata-samadhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogi is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogi is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful. Today's so-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogi indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogis who are attracted by the siddhis, or perfections, in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogis are attracted by the by-products of yoga, then they cannot attain the stage of perfection as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way. The best practice of yoga in this age is Krsna consciousness, which is not baffling. A Krsna conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha-yoga, dhyana-yoga, and jñana-yoga, but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga. As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti-yoga, or in Krsna consciousness, does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Krsna consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences—such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative—but he is always alert to execute his duties in Krsna consciousness or bhakti-yoga. Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, agamapayino nityas tams titiksasva bharata. He endures all such incidental occurrences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice."

Richard: Did you write..., you wrote the purport? Okay, um, when you said the person who is involved with Krsna consciousness makes the best use of a bad bargain, were you referring to life?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: This physical life?

Ramesvara: Physical.

Richard: Okay.

Prabhupada: The physical life is struggle for existence.

Richard: Is a struggle for existence. Why is...? Why, if a man who is an alcoholic, if that's the best that he can make of life, why is that bad?

Prabhupada: That is not.... He's wrongly, he's going in the wrong path.

Richard: Well, if that's the best that he can do.

Prabhupada: He can think.

Richard: He can change?

Prabhupada: Yes, he can change. Change is possible, but if he sticks, that is his selection.

Richard: Ah, but suppose drinking to him is better than what he has to put up with...

Prabhupada: That is not actual fact. Drinking, nobody can be happy by drinking. That is not possible.

Richard: Okay, okay. You said in the purport that tragedies of life—I'm paraphrasing—tragedies of life such as death of even a close relative are mere incidental occurrences. Is...? But you said earlier that death to you was anything but a mere incidental occurrence, that it was the...

Prabhupada: No, we are not irresponsible to the death. Death, although we have to meet death, we are making provision that after death we become happy. Happy, of course, for us, even in living condition or dead condition, there is happiness, but it will take time to understand. But taking superficially, death is not very pleasing, so after death, that is mentioned in the Bha.... Tyaktva deham punar janma [Bg. 4.9], we do not get again a material body. This is final. The material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you don't get the material body, if you remain in your spiritual body, that is real enjoyment.

Richard: But then why do you fear this death of the physical body?

Prabhupada: No, I do not fear.

Richard: Oh, you don't?

Prabhupada: No.

Richard: Oh, okay.

Ramesvara: The ordinary man.

Prabhupada: Because...

Richard: Well, I don't either, and I'm not in Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is another thing, because you do not know that you are risking your life without Krsna consciousness. That is the.... You do not, that I have already said, that an innocent person doesn't know what is going to happen, but things are going to happen. That you do not know.

Ramesvara: After death.

Prabhupada: So you must be aware what is going to happen after death. Then if you become fearless, that is secure. But without knowing, if you are not afraid, that is risk.

Richard: Okay, are you familiar with the writings of Descartes?

Prabhupada: We don't read anyone's books except Bhagavad-gita.

Richard: Oh, I thought you said you studied other philosophies.

Prabhupada: Study, there are so many books we study.

Richard: Right, okay, well anyway, there was a French philosopher in the 1700's named Rene Descartes, and his...

Prabhupada: I think we have discussed this philosopher.

Richard: You have discussed him? All right, one of the things he said was that.... Oh, I'm sorry, it's Pascal. Anyway, same thing practically. Ah, he said that as far as an afterlife goes, as far as proving it, it's impossible to prove it.

Prabhupada: Why impossible? He does not know.

Richard: Okay.

Prabhupada: We can prove immediately.

Richard: Okay, but it's just a wager, it's a moot argument, the proofs are of a spiritual kind rather than a...

Prabhupada: It requires little brain; otherwise, it can be proved immediately.

Richard: Pardon me, I didn't catch the last part.

Prabhupada: This, that the spirit soul is there, that can be proved immediately provided one has brain to understand.

Richard: How do you prove that a spirit is dead?

Prabhupada: That is very easy. Just like you are a young man...

Ramesvara: Prabhupada said "spirit is there."

Richard: Oh, oh, I misunderstood.

Ramesvara: Not that" spirit is dead." Spirit is there.

Richard: Oh, oh. I misunderstood.

Prabhupada: Just try to, try to...

Ramesvara: Just like when you have a very..., when you were first born, you had a very small body. Now you are older. So where is that small body? It is no longer existing. Now you are in a young man's body. So similarly, when you are sixty years old, the body that you have now will no longer exist, but you still exist. Even though your body has changed, your life goes on. In other words, life is not dependent on the body. The body changes.

Richard: Yes, but you still have a body at sixty.

Ramesvara: Death is another change of body. Life will go on. The example of life going on even though you are changing your body, you are experiencing within this one life. You've already experienced that your life goes on even though you have changed your body so many times. So death is simply another change of body. You have already experienced that you can exist even though you have quit one body and gotten a new body.

Prabhupada: Now the point is that you are going to get another body. That's a fact.

Richard: How do you know that?

Prabhupada: Now what kind of...? This is a fact, just like you have got already another body. Where is that child's body, where is that boy's body? That is finished. This is the proof.

Richard: But I'm still alive.

Prabhupada: Alive, you are always alive.

Richard: Physically alive.

Prabhupada: No, physically not. Spiritually, you are always alive. This point is to be understood. The death taking place only of the physical body. That you have to understand.

Richard: Right, but I have never been aware of any proof...

Prabhupada: That is education. You are not aware because you are not educated.

Richard: Perhaps, but I have never read of anyone else actually proving that there is a spiritual afterlife.

Prabhupada: Here is the proof, he is giving proof. Therefore I said it requires little brain. He's giving proof.

Richard: I think it requires more than education; it requires faith.

Ramesvara: The first question Prabhupada asked is what is the difference between a dead man and a living man. The body is the same, but something is missing in the dead man, in the dead body. So that is the proof that the body is not living at any time, but there is a living energy, and when that living energy is inside the body, it makes the body seem alive, and if that living energy is taken out of the body, then the body is seen as it really is, a lump of matter. The body is never alive; it is the presence of the soul within the body that animates the body.

Richard: Right, animate, that's the etymology of animation, anima, soul.

Ramesvara: So your body...

Richard: I agree with all that.

Ramesvara: And that living energy is eternal, and when this body becomes an old man's body, or rather when you get an old man's body, the body you have now will be finished, but you will still be alive because you are that eternal living energy.

Richard: Okay, and what I am saying is that I have, there has never been any empirical proof of that.

Ramesvara: But I have already explained that these senses are not the perfect instruments for experiencing reality. Just like sometimes there may be a cloud, and therefore you cannot see the sun with your senses, but that does not mean the sun is not there. It simply means your senses are not powerful enough to see. The senses are imperfect instruments for perceiving reality. The sun is always there, but sometimes you can see it and sometimes you can't.

Prabhupada: Just like night, this is night, you don't see the sun. That does not mean there is no sun.

Ramesvara: Don't rely on empirical sense perception.

Richard: Okay, right, you're introducing here though, the essence of all religion, and that is faith. Faith...

Prabhupada: It's not faith, it is fact. If I say that there is sun and you cannot see, if you deny, "No I don't see. There is no sun," so which is fact?

Richard: Well there is no sun now. There's no sun present.

Prabhupada: Sun is there. You cannot see.

Richard: Right now, the sun, in my life, is not present.

Prabhupada: It is present, that is ignorance. You just phone immediately to Bombay, "Is there sun?" He'll say, "Yes."

Richard: Is the sun out in Bombay?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: I have faith that it is.

Prabhupada: No faith, it is fact.

Richard: It is a fact, not to me though.

Prabhupada: No, then you are not very intelligent. You phone your friend that "Where is the sun?" He'll say "It is above my head."

Richard: Right now, the sun is not above my head.

Prabhupada: Not your head, but you phone to your friend in Bombay, he'll say "Yes, here is sun." But that does not mean you believe in the sun existing. That's not fact.

Richard: No, that's not what I'm talking about. You asked me whether the sun was above my head now, and I said no it is not, but that does not mean...

Prabhupada: Head or not head, sun is there, but you cannot see. That is the point.

Hari-sauri: Prabhupada is explaining the existence of the sun is not dependent upon your perceiving it through your senses. The sun is always there, but sometimes you perceive it and sometimes you don't.

Prabhupada: You don't perceive. That is your position.

Richard: Right. That is because I am physically limited by my body.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the point. That is the point.

Richard: But I still don't see that as an affirmation nor as a denial.

Prabhupada: Therefore this verse is explained to you, sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriyam grahyam [Bg. 6.21]. So we have to understand through supersenses, not this blunt senses.

Richard: Right, and I think...

Prabhupada: These are imperfect.

Richard: And I think that in the Western world, I don't know about the Eastern world, in the Western world, that understanding is called faith.

Ramesvara: No, what Prabhupada is explaining is.... Just like now you are seeing me through your blunt senses. By the process of Krsna consciousness, you awaken a different type of senses, called transcendental senses, and it is just as real as the blunt sense perception, except it is perfect sense perception, whereas your physical senses are conditioned, limited. There are transcendental senses.

Richard: Yes, but all the input goes into the mind, right?

Ramesvara: No, these are actual sense perceptions. "The soul is sentient, thou has proved."

Richard: Okay.

Ramesvara: Just like your body has senses, the soul also has senses, and the process of Krsna consciousness, chanting Hare Krsna and taking the spiritual prasadam, seeing the Deity in the temple and hearing this Vedic knowledge, that awakens the soul, and thus you can experience the sense perception of the soul, the knowledge of God through the soul, sense perception. You can see God, when you're very pure. And that's a fact, not faith.

Prabhupada: There are five stages of ascending to come to the right conclusion. This, this is.... Just like pratyaksa, directly, you do not see the sun on the sky, but the same example, if you phone your friend, "Where is the sun?" then he'll say, "Yes, here is the sun." So this is called paroksa, mean you get the knowledge by other sources. Your direct sources, you cannot see, but you get from other sources, you understand, "Yes, sun is there in the sky."

Richard: And I have faith that it is.

Prabhupada: You must have faith.

Richard: I trust that it is.

Prabhupada: You have to trust.

Richard: Okay, I was listening to him and, you know, I'm hearing a lot, okay, the brain...

Prabhupada: I mean to say, there are five stages, pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja and aprakrta. So our process should be to go to the aprakrta, transcendental knowledge. This is the stages. Just like.... This is explained. We can directly understand that by directly, I'm seeing there is no sun, but when I ask my friend, he says there is sun. So this is also knowledge. This is called paroksa knowledge, from other sources. Similarly, there are stages. So when the perfect stage is, that is aprakrta, no more material, all spiritual.

Richard: Okay. The brain, the mind, interprets the senses...

Prabhupada: Well, the brain, mind, they are instruments.

Richard: Okay, they interpret the senses. Right. Okay.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are instruments.

Richard: Now if the...

Prabhupada: Suppose if you see with your eyes, and then you see with microscope, then you see with telescope, different processes. Yes. But you see with your spiritual eyes, that is perfect.

Richard: Now suppose the brain dies, as in the case...

Prabhupada: Brain dies.... Brain is part of the body.

Richard: Right, it's a part of the body. It can fail just as the heart or the lungs or anything else. Now suppose the brain dies, the soul...

Prabhupada: You get another brain.

Richard: Pardon me?

Prabhupada: You get another brain. Suppose, just like you are working with the glass, spectacle, it breaks, you get another spectacle. That's all.

Richard: In the same body?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Richard: Okay, now Karen Ann Quinlan, you know her?

Prabhupada: We don't know anyone.

Richard: Okay, this is a, let me explain very briefly. Here is a girl in New Jersey, near New York, whose brain has died through a traffic accident. Her body is still alive. Her body is still alive, but her brain is dead, she cannot get up, speak, move.

Prabhupada: This is already explained, the brain is an instrument. The instrument is not working, but that is not death.

Richard: Right, her soul is still alive, is that correct?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Richard: Her soul is still alive, and she is still functioning spiritually, even though her brain is dead. Is that what...?

Prabhupada: That is possible because soul is there.

Ramesvara: The soul is always alive, but the fact that she's being maintained means the soul's still in that body, has not left the body yet.

Richard: Okay, now what...

Ramesvara: The soul is always living.

Richard: Okay, now what is.... Is the soul in a...

Prabhupada: That is another proof. That instead of, in spite of the brain is not working, the soul is there.

Richard: Okay, but just let me finish this, and then we'll leave it. The.... Okay, how am I going to say this? Is her spiritual, is her spirit in a less active state from when her brain was alive?

Prabhupada: Spirit is always active.

Richard: It's always active at the same level?

Prabhupada: Not same level, because you are understanding the spirit through the body. So body is changing. Just like the soul, when he's in the boy's body, it is talking so many nonsense things. But you don't take it seriously. But when you are grown up, if you talk such nonsense things, then you'll be taken as a nonsense, because the body has changed.

Richard: Okay, what I was leading up to was, her brain is dead, she has no...

Prabhupada: Not dead, it is not working.

Richard: It's not working, okay. It's not working. She's getting no sensory input. She's not aware of the physical surroundings, and yet you maintain that her soul is still alive and still very active. Now would her state, her physical state, enhance the soul's activity or detract from...?

Prabhupada: It has nothing to do with it.

Richard: It has nothing to do with it. Okay, would it matter to you whether they did turn off her life supporting apparatus? Would that make any difference?

Ramesvara: No, it wouldn't.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: There are machines that are maintaining her life.

Ramesvara: Just like a person in a car, the car engine may fail and the person may get out of the car or he may linger in the car. The car is just a machine. So the soul is lingering in her body. Even though it is...

Richard: But it's still very active.

Ramesvara: Yes, just like if my car breaks down, that does not mean I have broken down. I'm the passenger.

Richard: Can't she be in touch with her soul in a coma?

Hari-sauri: She is soul.

Devotee: She is soul.

Hari-sauri: That personality, that is the soul.

Ramesvara: No, when the machine, when the conscious, when the body is broken like that, she cannot become self-realized.

Radhavallabha: She's active on the mental platform.

Prabhupada: She's covered with the body, but she's different from the body. Just like you are covered by your dress, but you are different from the dress.

Richard: Okay.

Ramesvara: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Richard: Thank you.

Prabhupada: Jaya. You are very intelligent boy. (laughs)

Richard: I don't know what good that does me.

Prabhupada: They are very good questions.

Ramesvara: You are very merciful, Srila Prabhupada.

Richard: You are very patient, I'll tell you. (laughs)

Ramesvara: Thank you, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Richard: Thank you.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: [break] ...even they don't associate temple this and that.

Hari-sauri: That boy has some intelligence, it's just a, (laughs) he has to be guided a little bit.

Prabhupada: Guidance required. Tad vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. (end)