Pusṭa Krsna: ...cutting trees.

Prabhupada: Because they are also living beings, so you cannot take their life unnecessarily. You are responsible. You can cut trees when they are dried like this; otherwise not. [break] ...cutting trees indiscriminately for manufacturing paper, some bundles of papers nobody reads. Every day...

Pusṭa Krsna: They throw away.

Prabhupada: They are publishing hundreds of thousands of copies for wasting, and for that paper, it requires so many lives.

Pusṭa Krsna: No one has ever considered such things before.

Prahupada: No..., where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One with knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Sva-viḍ-varahosṭra-kharaiḥ; samstutaḥ; purusaḥ; pasuḥ; [SB 2.3.19]. The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all. The test is whether he understands the spirit soul different from the body. If he does not understand he is animal, that's all. Maybe big animal, that is a different thing. Big or small, animal is animal.

Pusṭa Krsna: So anyone who is not aware of the spirit soul...

Prabhupada: He is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ;. That is the verdict of the sastra. Yasyatma buddhiḥ; kunape tri-dhatuke: [SB 10.84.13] "Anyone who considers this body made of three elements—kapha, pitta, vayu—as self," yasyatm-buddhi kunape tri-dhatuke svadhiḥ; kalatradisu, "and the accidental combination of family members, they are own kinsmen," sva-dhiḥ; kala..., bhauma idyadhiḥ;, "and the land in which they are born, that is worshipable..." That is nationalism, so-called nationalism. Bhauma idyadhiḥ; yat-tirtha-buddhiḥ; salile: "And going to the pilgrimage, taking the water as very important," yat tirtha buddhiḥ; na karhicij janesv abhijanesu, "and they do not care for the learned, experienced saintly person," sa eva gokharaḥ;, "such person is nothing but cows and asses." That's all. If one does not know that he is not this body, he is different from body, so that sort of knowledge is there amongst the dogs. So why he should be distinguished from the dog? The basic knowledge is the same.

Pusṭa Krsna: One who has such knowledge... What is the position of one who has such theoretical knowledge but doesn't apply it?

Prabhupada: Not theoretical. Practical.

Pusṭa Krsna: What happens if someone doesn't apply it practically? What is their position? Are they higher than the person in ignorance?

Prabhupada: No, what do you mean by theoretical knowledge?

Pusṭa Krsna: Just like so many... In Indian philosophy everyone knows that there is atma, but still, people continue to act on the gross bodily platform for sense enjoyment.

Prabhupada: Then, if he seriously understood, then he will act on atma. And otherwise, simply understanding, that is impersonal understanding, Brahman only understanding. But what is after that, Brahman knowledge, that they do not know. So they are almost as good as the animals. Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. Therefore they are not happy. Simply theoretical knowledge that "I am Brahman," that's all.

Indian man (1): They know the knowledge but they don't act according to that.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are not happy. Otherwise one who knows "I am Brahman," brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma—he will be happy always. That has become fashion. "Table chair brahma-jñana," sitting on the table-chair, smoking and talking of Brahman. "Armchair brahma-jñana." Although Krsna is giving information, brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma na socati na kanksati, samaḥ; sarvesu... mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54], so they do not make further progress, mad-bhaktim labhate param, to achieve that platform of bhakti. Therefore it is as good as no knowledge. These will be the symptoms of brahma-jñana, na socati na kan..., samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu. If they have got brahma-jñana, then why they should distinguish? Just like in our country, Mahatma Gandhi, so he is designated as mahatma, but why he was against the Englishmen, to drive them away? That is not brahma-jñana. Samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu. They are as good. As these white people, they do not give any chance to the other people, so similarly, Mahatma Gandhi also, he wanted that "These white people should go away." So what is the distinction? The same knowledge. "You want me ... to drive me away; I want to drive you away." So what is the distinction between you and me? The one dog is barking at another dog; another dog is barking, another dog. That's all. Where is knowledge?

Pusṭa Krsna: That's a very interesting view.

Prabhupada: Yes. Where is the change of understanding? It is natural. If you treat me as enemy, I treat you as enemy. That is natural. But brahma-jñana means samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu, that no distinction, "Everyone is Brahman." That is brahma-jñana. What was the movement here of Mahatma Gandhi?

Indian man (1): There was a movement.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that movement?

Indian man (1): They used to call it...

Indian man (2): Satyagraha movement.

Indian man (1): Nonviolence.

Indian man (2): Fighting for the truth.

Prabhupada: What was the truth?

Indian man (1): There was discriminatory laws against the Indians, trying to let them carry certain documents to identify that they are foreigners and all that type of things, not allowed to go in certain places where other people were allowed to go, and all those kind of laws, discriminatory laws, especially for the Indians. So he fought against them for the truth that everybody is equal in the eyes of God.

Prabhupada: So? But it was not successful.

Indian man (1): Partly it was, because then they had to listen to him, what actually the grievances were. First they were not prepared to talk to him. They didn't want him to know anything. Then they compromised, and from then onwards.... Still it has been carried on up to now. The laws are there for the Indians.

Prabhupada: Still the Indians have no equal right.

Pusṭa Krsna: They are not allowed to vote here even, or have any representatives in Parliament.

Indian man (1): No, nothing whatsoever. They are grouped up. Especially now within these couple of years. Before there was living in town and all that, but now they are grouped up in their own areas, not supposed to live in town anymore.

Prabhupada: The Indians are driven away.

Indian man (1): But there is a change at the moment. We are getting indirect representation in Parliament, and most probably in a matter of twenty, thirty years... (laughter) Promises.

Devotee (4): Sounds like the scientists.

Indian man (1): Live on a promise.

Pusṭa Krsna: If you're still alive then.

Indian man (1): Is that also effected through karma maybe, Swamiji?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Indian man (1): Is that also effected through karma maybe?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...the whole, you are getting sufficient food to eat.

Indian man (1): Yes, that we are.

Prabhupada: But Indians are not getting that. You are better than the Indians in India.

Indian man (1): That's what everybody says who comes from...

Prabhupada: Oh, I see. Here I see you are prosperous than in India. You go to the ration shop; you simply find all rejected food grains.

Indian man (1): Rejected food grains.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are not eatable. No country uses them as food grain, and India, they are selling, a good price.

Indian man (1): The people are lazy too, Swamiji.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Indian man (1): Don't you think the people are lazy also?

Prabhupada: Well, you are the same Indian. Why you are not lazy here? It is the government's policy or government's management. You see? To become lazy is the recommendation of the sastra. To become lazy... It is a bad word, "lazy," but actually life means not to work very hard. That is real life. And to work hard for eating, that is animal life, that is not human life. Human life should be very peaceful, without any hard work, and cultivating spiritual knowledge. That is human life, not that, to work hard like hogs and dogs throughout the whole day for find out some stool, where it is. That is not human life. So people are being educated to work very hard. That is not human life. Therefore those who have got money, they build nice bungalow in a secluded place to live peacefully, to become lazy. Is it not?

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Perfection of life means ultimately you become lazy; you haven't got to work. That is perfection, they say. Otherwise why they get a cottage in a secluded place and live? All these Americans, they go weekend. They leave aside all working, they become tired, hard working, and they go. That is the intention, that you should live peaceful life, not working very hard. That is human life. Huh? Otherwise why they go outside the city at the weekend? Why do they go? Hm?

Indian man (1): They want rest, I suppose. They want rest.

Prabhupada: So that means lazy.

Indian man (1): No.

Prabhupada: Yes. Rest means lazy; you don't work.

Indian man (1): If one works five days a week, you rest for two...

Prabhupada: That is another thing. You have to work to become lazy. (laughter) That is another thing. But the goal is to become lazy. You work five days very hard just to become lazy for two days. That's all. So if you have got means to become seven days lazy, you'll prefer it.

Pusṭa Krsna: But I think people would... Most people would go crazy if they didn't have any work.

Prabhupada: No, that means their life is not properly conducted. And therefore the word laziness has come. Laziness is not actually the word. Laziness means minimizing the bodily labor and engaged in spiritual work. If you ask people, "Please come to our temple," who is coming? Because he says, "I have no time." But we are not working hard. So real aim of life is to... In German, I think, or somewhere there is classification: "Lazy intelligent, busy intelligent, lazy fool, and busy fool." So at the present moment (laughs) the whole world is full of busy fools. But the first-class man, he is lazy intelligent. Lazy and intelligent, that is first-class man. And second-class man, busy intelligent. And third class means lazy fool and fourth class means busy fool. When the fools are busy... Just like nowadays they are busy but they are fools. Like monkey, he is very busy. You see? And they prefer to be generation of monkey, busy fool. That's all. Fools, when he is busy, he is simply creating havoc. That's all. Better... Lazy fool is better than him because he will not create so much harm, but this busy fool will simply create harm. And first class-man is lazy intelligent. He knows the value of life, and soberly he is thinking. Just like all our great saintly persons. They were living in the forest, meditation, tapasya, and writing books. All, you will find, lazy intelligent. They are first-class men.

Indian man (1): Not like the monkey jumping from one ...

Prabhupada: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool. That's all.

Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent?

Prabhupada: The second class.

Indian man (1): How does he behave?

Prabhupada: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brahmana, and busy intelligent means ksatriya. So the catur-varnyam maya srsṭam [Bg. 4.13]. The society should be divided into four classes. The sudras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all. In the Bhagavad-gita you will find that for brahmana, samo damaḥ; satyam saucam titiksa arjavam, jñanam vijñanam astikyam brahma-karma sva... [Bg. 18.42]. There is no recommendation that "You work hard day and night." The brahminical qualification is controlling the senses, controlling the mind, truthful, clean, knows everything nicely, practical application of the knowledge, full faith in sastra and Bhagavan. Jñanam vijñanam astikyam. These things are recommended, not that a brahmana should become very busy whole day and night for getting food. So sastra says, "There is no use of becoming busy for your food. Food is there already." Food is already there. He'll get his food. That is arrangement by God. But they are busy fool. They do not understand the God's arrangement. Only for food they are busy whole day and night like cats and dogs. Now this land is there. You can... Everyone can grow food if he works for two months. Everyone can grow his whole year's foodstuff. There is so much land. But no, they'll not grow food. They will grow hammer, manufacturing it. You see? Tire tube, then atom bomb, then this and that. They are busy. They are busy fool. Actually they are fools, and they are very busy. Everyone is busy. There are so many parts in the motorcar, three thousand part, and they are busy in manufacturing three thousand parts of motor parts. So everyone is busy in producing things unwanted. But they have created a society in such a way that they have to do that.

Indian man (1): Otherwise they think that they not economically progressing.

Prabhupada: Huh? What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, annad bhavanti bhutani: [Bg. 3.14] You grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tire and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Krsna never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." Why don't you do that? That means fools. After all, you have to eat. So you are not busy in growing your food, but you are busy in producing tire tubes, motor cars, stools and instruments. Then how you will get your food? Where is your economic? First economic is, first necessity, you must eat.

Pusṭa Krsna: But with the tire tubes and nuts and bolts they can make a tractor. And the tractor can help produce food, they think, much faster.

Prabhupada: No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor.

Devotee (4): It will work.

Prabhupada: But you want to eat them, so you must find out...

Indian man (1): Some other means.

Prabhupada: Replacement. That's it.

Devotee (4): But man has to progress.

Prabhupada: What is that nonsense progress? To become busy fool? That is progress? Do you think it is progress to become busy fool? This is not progress. The progress means lazy intelligent, that he will not have to work but he will get all the comforts automatically. That is wanted. That is progress. Actually nobody wants to work but he is obliged to work because his necessities are not sufficiently met. Therefore he has to work. He has created such society that he has to work hard.

Indian man (1): Some of them wants to sit in the office and order the directors, "Do this, do this." They want to be on the head. They want to have peace there, but while they are sitting on the chair, they haven't got any peace.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Krsna has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra." And then the brahmanas should give nice advice, teacher. The ksatriyas should govern, and the vaisyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And sudras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the ksatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaisya, and the Africans, they are as sudras. But where is brahmana? There is no brahmana; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; second-class men-busy intelligent; and third-class men-lazy fool; and fourth-class men-busy fool.

Pusṭa Krsna: But we find sudras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position.

Prabhupada: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad-gita never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.

Indian man (1): Is this still possible, Swamiji? Is there still possibility that that can happen?

Prabhupada: At any moment, provided you agree. But you do not agree. Nobody is prepared to become a brahmana. Everyone wants to become a sudra. This is the modern civilization.

Indian man (1): But can a person become a brahmana?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Why not?

Indian man (1): Doesn't it depend...

Prabhupada: It is training. How they are become brahmana? According to sastra, they are coming from mleccha, yavana. How they have become brahmana? More than brahmana. But they are abiding by the rules. You see? They are accustomed to eat meat from the very birth. They have given up. And if we request Indians, they will not give up, although their forefathers never ate meat.

Indian man (1): Does it say somewhere in the Bhagavad-gita that we shouldn't eat meat?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes. Ahara-suddhi. There are three kinds, four kinds of ahara: sattvika, rajasika, tamasika. Everything is there. The classification of ahara. Meat is tamasikahara, fourth class. It is not first class.

Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems?

Prabhupada: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: catur-varnyam maya srsṭam [Bg. 4.13]. And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brahmana, you must act as a brahmana, not that you act as a sudra, bangi, and also you are brahmana. No. That will not be allowed by the government.

Indian man (1): The purity must be there.

Prabhupada: [break] Yes. In the whole world you won't find qualified brahmanas. And they are required for guiding the human society. So therefore the human society is in chaotic condition. There is no guidance. The sudras, they make things by vote. And what they'll vote? They're all rascals. What is the value of their votes? So that is going on all over the world. Fools and rascals they vote, and another rascal is selected. And after some time—"Oh, he is not suitable. Get him down," Nixon, and replace another fool, rascal. That's all.

Indian man (1): That is continuously going on.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Going on. The democracy means the selector, the elector, they are all fools and rascals. So how he will select a person who is not rascal?

Indian man (1): Is it possible that every man's life is directed by God, and you're born to do certain things, and you come to be prime minister or something?

Prabhupada: Yes, there is something like that. But I am talking of, if you depend on God, then why do you keep elections? You are opportunist. Sometimes you take shelter of God and sometimes of your election power. If you are so firm believer in God, then why election? Let God elect. Why you take part in election? Huh? Let God elect the prime minister. Why you are busy in giving vote? [break] God elected Maharaja Yudhisṭhira. Hm? His plan was that Maharaja Yudhisṭhira should be king, not Duryodhana. So He killed all the Duryodhana's party and selected Yudhisṭhira: "Sit down here." That is God's election. So why you elect? Depend on God.

Indian man (1): And that comes through lack of spiritual knowledge, Swamiji?

Prabhupada: Yes, no knowledge. No spiritual knowledge means he is animal. That's all. Sa eva gokharaḥ;. This is the final verdict. One who has no spiritual knowledge, he is no better than these cows and dogs. That's all. Therefore guidance of the brahmana required. Why the brahmanas are selected to guide? Because they have got full vijñana, jñanam vijñanam astikyam, therefore.

Indian man (1): It is very necessary for the brahmanas. We must have brahmanas in the society.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. You are very intelligent. Therefore we are creating some brahmanas. We are not creating the busy fools. No.

Devotee (5): Does that mean that the more one gets control over his senses, he becomes more lazy intelligent?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. One who is servant of his senses, what is intelligence? That is dog's intelligence. As soon as he sees one lady dog, and ten dogs come here and begin to smell vagina. Is that intelligence? So the human society is like that. They're smelling the vagina of the girls, that's all. Everyone is doing that.

Pusṭa Krsna: So the activities of the lazy intelligent are jñana-vijñana?

Prabhupada: Jñana-vijñanam, yes.

Pusṭa Krsna: Not sleep. Not sleep.

Prabhupada: No. This is the term used, "lazy," but real term is dhira. The Sanskrit word is dhira. And everything... Just like high-court judge, he is dhira. He is... Before giving judgment, he thinks three days, silently. That is your... That is not laziness. His brain is working how to give nice judgment. That is required. But because we do not understand what is dhira, we think that "This man is sitting idly and drawing four thousand rupees." Because we know, "Unless one is active like dog, running there, running there, he is not a busy man." And he cannot appreciate the work of the author, the work of the high-court judge. They think they are lazy. Therefore he's using the lazy, but lazy and intelligent. Otherwise he is not lazy; he is dhira. The word is dhira. Dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Unless one is dhira, one cannot understand that there is soul within the body. [break] Krsna uses this word, dhiras tatra na muhyati. One has to become dhira, sober, silent. Then he can understand. Not these busy dogs.

Pusṭa Krsna: But Arjuna is fighting for Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was different. Now you jump over to another. Why?

Pusṭa Krsna: Hare Krsna.

Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad-gita. Everything is there.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhira, not for the adhira. There are two classes men, dhira and adhira. So adhira

means busy fool, and dhira means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhira and adhira. Adhira. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhira or adhira. It is so nice movement. Dhiradhira. Krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi dhiradhira priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhiras and adhiras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasada." So both the dhiras and adhiras, they will be attracted. Dhiradhira priya. [break] You cannot make everyone dhira; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhira also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhira.

Indian man (1): Adhira should be guided by the dhira.

Prabhupada: Yes. Adhira should be guided by the dhira. Then it will be all right. [break] Unnecessarily.

Indian man (1): The whole week they are very, very busy. Now today, Sunday, at least they think by playing golf, they can relax.

Prabhupada: That is also another business. So this Sunday should have been utilized for understanding God. But they have no knowledge. Because they are fools, so again busy in pushing on a ball. That's all.

Harikesa: We should go quickly. They're not going to stop.

Indian man (1): They won't stop.

Pusṭa Krsna: They've already both hit the ball. Now walk three hundred yards and hit it again.

Prabhupada: Busy fools, creating foolishness, and this is aristocracy; a rich man's engagement.

Indian man (1): Yes. He can afford all this.

Indian man (3): So how long this thing will continue now, Swamiji, the materialistic progress, the way they are carrying on today?

Prabhupada: If you don't take advice from Krsna, it will continue. You take advice of Krsna; it will be all right. The disease is there; the treatment is there. If you take treatment, the disease will disappear. If you don't take, the disease will continue and you will die. That's all.

Indian man (1): So eventually destruction can come to this earth?

Prabhupada: It is already come, but because you are not intelligent, you do not see it. It is already come. Who is happy? (end)