Pusṭa Krsna (in car): People have to be great fools not to take to Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Grateful?

Pusṭa Krsna: Fool.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes, muḍha. Therefore we say, muḍha. That is the state, symptom. Na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante naradhamaḥ; [Bg. 7.15]. As soon as you see that one is not Krsna conscious, then he is muḍha. Judgment is already there. [break] ...this lump, (laughter) lump of matter. It is our mental concoction that "This lump is bad; this lump is good." The whole thing is lump. There is no such discrimination, "this lump" or "that lump." [break] ...being a lover of God, nobody can smile, that's a fact.

Pusṭa Krsna: Without being a lover of God.

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. That is stated in Bhagavad-gita. Who can become a... Smiling means he is satisfied in every respect.

Pusṭa Krsna: Krsna is always smiling, isn't He?

Prabhupada: Yes. Smeran bhangi-traya-paricitam. Krsna is always smiling and standing in curved position. That is jubilant. Why so near?

Harikesa: Because the car makes so much noise that if I don't they'll never hear.

Prabhupada: Smeran bhangi-traya-paricitam saci-drstir na drstim. [break] ...shows that people are prosperous. They are not cheap buildings like America. [break] ...termite, always attacked by termite. They have no taste for good building. [break] And fuming? Fuming process?

Pusṭa Krsna: Fumigation.

Prabhupada: Ah, fumigation.

Pusṭa Krsna: When the termites get into the wood they eat up the wood and they hide in nests underneath the house. So the way that they try to kill the termites is by gassing them. They cover their house with a tent, and then they gas, and it goes into the nests and kills all the termites. They are perfecting this art of killing. You said that in Calcutta in a very expensive cloth shop... Your father's brother used to have cloth shop?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Pusṭa Krsna: That when there was rats and they would eat the cloth that he would simply put some prasadam in the room.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusṭa Krsna: And the rats would come and take. They wouldn't eat the cloth.

Prabhupada: No. Just like a man also. If he gets food, shelter, then he doesn't commit any criminal act. Man is also dangerous. Even if you give him food, shelter, he will do mischievous activities. That is man. But an animal will not do it. You can tame even a tiger by giving him food. He will never... If he sees that you are giving him food he'll never attack, the tiger also, feeling obliged.

Pusṭa Krsna: That's duracara? Duracara?

Prabhupada: Ferocious, but still, when he is given food by somebody, he feels obliged.

Pusṭa Krsna: On one lecture tape you said that man is duracara, very difficult to... When he's misbehaved?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] (out of car) ...by chanting mantra and herb. But a crooked man cannot be controlled any way. Therefore he is more dangerous than the snake. Sarpat krurataraḥ; khalaḥ;.

Pusṭa Krsna: Why is it that the man cannot be tamed and the unintelligent animal can be tamed?

Prabhupada: Because man is more intelligent. He can misuse his independence and intelligence, whereas animal cannot do that. He is not so intelligent. He has... That is the defect of the modern civilization. They have been described as duskrtina. Duskrtina means he has got brain more intelligent than the animal, but the brain is being utilized for mischievous activities. Therefore they are called duskrtina. Brain should be utilized for some benevolent work for the good of the living entities. But this brain, modern educated brain, is being misused for discovering something which is very dangerous to the human society. Therefore duskrtina. And he is getting Nobel Prize because he has discovered this atomic weapon which is so dangerous, and he is glorified, "Oh, you have done so nice scientific discovery." What is that discovery? "That you can kill... Instead of one man with gun, you can kill one thousand men. Therefore you must be offered Nobel Prize." This is man's appreciation.

Pusṭa Krsna: Better to walk this way, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are called muḍhas, all rascals. Na ma duskrtino muḍhaḥ;. How you can understand that this man is mischievously meritorious? How you can understand? Duskrtina means mischievously meritorious. This man is meritorious, but he is using his merit for mischievous activities. That is called duskrtina. So how you can understand this man is mischievously meritorious? You can say, "How is that? A man is meritorious and at the same time he is mischievous?" There're so many organization, especially in Western country, big, big rogues' organization simply for cheating, simply for smuggling. They have got merit. Otherwise how they have organized such big, big organization? But what for? All mischievous activities, harassing government, harassing people. The merit is being used. There are many organizations in the Western country. Is it not?

Pusṭa Krsna: Yes, it's true.

Prabhupada: Yes. Many, many. All these realty business. Realty business, you know?

Pusṭa Krsna: Realty.

Prabhupada: Seventy-five percent of them are mischievous. I have got experience. Seventy-five percent, they are simply mischievously planning—you have got five thousand or ten thousand dollar—to take it away, showing you that you are getting 200,000 worth of property. In this way they make implication, take your ten thousand dollar, and then finished. Many cases. Their only business is this. Big, big lawyer implicated. Therefore they are duskrtina. Go to a lawyer; immediately you are implicated. You see, this man is condemned, Nixon, and he is to pay the lawyer's bill by working hard, by writing a book and selling the good will to some company. He has to pay the lawyer's bill. He has no money. The lawyers, doctors, as soon as they get some opportunity, immediately captures you and finish-bas. How to take away all your money. Because artificially they have enhanced the standard of living, they want money. So unless they do mischievous activity, by honest means they cannot get money.

Pusṭa Krsna: That's described in the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusṭa Krsna: Bhagavad-gita, that they earn money by illegal methods.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yes.

Pusṭa Krsna: Why is it that in the modern day good people, they don't come into public office? Good people. In previous ages there were rajarsis, great kings, very pious kings. Why is it that only rogues are aspiring today?

Prabhupada: Because the democracy. You will not get vote. As soon as you become honest man in the public office, nobody will be obedient to you, and it will be impossible for him to execute any... You see? The bank manager in Delhi—he was my friend—that "I am afraid of this union. If I press them to do something, they will immediately topsy-turvy the whole management." Bank manager said. "So I am afraid of the workers' union," he told me. So therefore good men, they do not go to this political post because they know they will not be able to do anything good. He will be surrounded by all rogues. Nobody will execute his order.

Pusṭa Krsna: So the future in Kali-yuga looks very bleak.

Prabhupada: Very, very black. Achinna-dara-dravin gacchanti giri-kananam. People, general people, will be so much disgusted that they will be obliged to give up family and home and go to the forest, being disappointed: "Now I cannot manage. Let me go away."

Harikesa: That's predestined.

Prabhupada: Yes, predestined.

Harikesa: But that can all change in a minute.

Prabhupada: Yes, that can be changed only by... Therefore we are... "Go giri-kananam, but take shelter of Krsna." Vanam gato yad harim asrayet. "Go, leave your, this so-called family, home, and go to the forest and take shelter of Krsna." That is advised by Prahlada Maharaja. "That is the best thing in life. If you want to be free from anxiety, give up this so-called family life. Go to the forest and take shelter of Lord Krsna." That is Prahlada Maharaja's advice. Don't try to adjust it. It will not be possible.

Pusṭa Krsna: Especially in Kali-yuga.

Prabhupada: Especially in Kali-yuga. So we are offering them shelter that "In this age you are not accustomed to go to the forest. It will be more inconvenient. Come to our center and be Krsna conscious and chant Hare Krsna. Your problems will be solved." This is our mission. Everyone is faced with problem. Otherwise why there is majority of suicide? Everyone is faced with problem.

Pusṭa Krsna: It's best to go this way.

Harikesa: Oh, somebody hitting.

Prabhupada: Shilling?

Harikesa: No, they are playing golf.

Prabhupada: Oh. How persistent life is this. His main body is cut into pieces; still, he's struggling to exist. He has got some attachment—"I shall live here, stand here for ten thousand years." This is maya. Daivi hy esa gunamayi [Bg. 7.14]. [break]

Pusṭa Krsna: How can a man's intelligence be rectified? If intelligence is the...

Prabhupada: This hari-kirtana, chant. Somehow or other, induce them to chant Hare Krsna. Everything all right. By flattering, by soliciting, by giving him prasada, by elevating him, that "You are the best man in the world"—in this way inducing him, "Please chant Hare Krsna," then he will be rectified. This is Hare Krsna movement. There is no other way. He is ruined, and the more the Kali-yuga advances, he becomes more and more ruined. All other attempts will failure. Don't you see in your country the LSD-addicted hippies? Government spends so much money to rectify them-failure. But as soon as they come to our camp, immediately success. How it is possible?

Pusṭa Krsna: By this chanting...

Prabhupada: That is the amazement. That is the amazement of Professor Judah and all others, that "How it is happening? There is something in the Hare Krsna movement."

Pusṭa Krsna: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it?

Prabhupada: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."

Pusṭa Krsna: Only from your Godbrothers. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Pusṭa Krsna: You don't like the sunshine so much.

Prabhupada: Only at the time of massage. [break]

Pusṭa Krsna: ...Vedic statement or is it just preference?

Prabhupada: No, that is my personal. During winter it is pleasing, of course, sunshine.

Pusṭa Krsna: ...walk this way. There's a ravine here. [break] Srila Prabhupada, it always seems that there is some kind of inspiration for spiritual life there. Is that simply mental concoction, or is it actually a fact, the land itself?

Prabhupada: Land. It is the influence of the land. Just like Vrndavana. Whatever you may be, you stay here, you become spiritualized. Simply you stay there. [break]

Pusṭa Krsna: Is it possible to reform a person against their will?

Prabhupada: No, not possible. [break]

Pusṭa Krsna: ...sign, Srila Prabhupada, that someone is actually having change in heart?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusṭa Krsna: What is the sign that someone is actually having change in heart?

Prabhupada: By his action. [break] ...kasipu tried to make Prahlada atheist. He failed. And Prahlada tried to make his father theist. He failed. Don't you see?

Pusṭa Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: So unless one agrees you cannot turn him. It is not possible. Five-years'-old boy, staunch devotee, and the powerful Hiranyakasipu, father, who is threatening with his life and so many ways he tried that "You become atheist, godless. Otherwise I shall kill you." He did not agree. And similarly, the son also solicited the father that "You have got so much power by the grace of God. Why you are becoming atheist?" Both of them could not turn to their side. Prahlada remained Prahlada, and Hiranyakasipu remained Hiranyakasipu. [break] ...can expect that without agreeing, conceding, one can be reformed. No, that is not possible. Impossible.

Pusṭa Krsna: Not simply by rubber stamp.

Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Sisyas te 'ha sadhi ma prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. [break]

Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore."

Prabhupada: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. The first term is "surrender," pranipata. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end)