Nitai: What is the process of punishing others? Who are the actual candidates for punishment? Are all karmis engaged in fruitive activities punishable, or only some of them?

Prabhupada:

kathaṁ svid dhriyate daṇḍaḥ;
kiṁ vasya sthanam ipsitam
daṇḍyaḥ; kiṁ kariṇaḥ; sarve
aho svit katicin nrṇam
[SB 6.1.39]

So first question was, bruta dharmasya nas tattvaṁ yac ca adharmasya lakṣaṇam. When there is some vicara, judgment, it must be done very nicely. A criminal is judged before the magistrate. He is taken just to make proper judgment, "Whether this man is punishable? He committed some criminal activities." The circumstances, the condition of the mind—everything should be judged. This is called judgment. So who is punishable? Desa-kala-patra. There is consideration, desa-kala-patra. Desa means situation, and kala, time, and patra, and the subject. Just like a child, he takes one fruit here. So he is not punishable. According to Vedic system, a child, a woman, a brahmaṇa, a cow and a saintly person, they are not punishable. Cow, woman, saintly person, brahmaṇa and child—they are beyond all laws. Even they commit some... They do not do. They have no criminal purpose. Formerly the women were trained up in such a way, very chaste and obedient. So they had no chance to commit any offense. And brahmaṇas, they are also trained up. Samo damaḥ; satyaṁ saucam... (children making noise)

Sudama: Take the children out.

Bahulasva: All the children should go out.

Prabhupada: No, that's all right. (some devotees say "Jaya!" and applaud) So, children are not punishable. (laughter, more applause) Neither the women. (more applause, laughter) Hm. But don't take advantage. (laughter) And here we have got these brahmaṇas, saintly persons, women and children. So who is to be punished? (laughter) Yes. Kathaṁ svid dhriyate daṇḍaḥ;. So the judge must know who is to be punished. That is judgment. Kathaṁ svid dhriyate daṇḍaḥ; sthanam. Desa-kala-patra: according to time, according to circumstances, according to the subject, everything scrutinizingly judged, not whimsically. Nowadays it is the time for emergency. Anyone can be punished without any judgment. But this is not good position.

Then daṇḍyaḥ; kiṁ kariṇaḥ; sarve. Kariṇaḥ; means fruitive actors, those who are working for getting some profit. So sometimes with getting profit we make some undesirable activities which is called black market. So that is punishable. There are system... Of course, I cannot quote from where, but it is the system that a merchant, highest profit he can take for exchanging—not more than twenty-five percent. That is the highest. If one merchant takes more than twenty-five percent profit, then he is punishable. This was the system. So the kariṇaḥ;... So we are all workers. So somebody is working for his personal profit, and somebody is working for the profit of Krṣṇa. It appears almost similar. A ordinary man is selling some newspaper, and our man selling the magazine. It looks the similar thing, but it is not similar; it is different. Therefore, if a newspaper seller creates some disturbance on the street, the police can punish, but when one is selling Back to Godhead, he is not punishable. (laughter) This is the difference. But nowadays these rascals, they do not know whom to punish, whom not to punish. They take, "All right, you are selling Back to Godhead. You must come police custody." So our are not punishable although doing the same thing. This is judgment.

Then the animals, they are also working hard day and night for their necessities of life. But if an animal steals something from your house or takes some eatables, he is not punishable. India you will find in the bazaars. There is crowd, and the cows enter there, and they eat the vegetables to their heart's content. But he is not punishable. Still the cow is not punishable. But if a man takes one potato without the permission, he is punishable. So the animals are not punishable. All the lawbooks are meant for the men, for the human being, not for the animals. Just like in your country the police law is: "Keep to the right your car." But if a animal goes, keep to the left, it is not punishable. So everyone not punishable. Then again, human being, all of them, not punishable. Those who are criminals, those who have violated laws, they are punishable. So therefore this question is "Whether and how they are punishable? What is dharma, and what is adharma? So if you are representative of Yamaraja, then you explain to us first of all whether you are actually representative."

So the Yamaduta, they are also servant of very exalted personality, one of the authority. So they are not lacking in knowledge by the grace of their master. So the first thing they said, veda-praṇihito dharmo hy adharmas tad-viparyayaḥ;. Dharma and adharma, religious principle and not religious principle, nonreligious principle—how to discern. The book is there, Veda. We have to consult the Vedas. There are so many Vedic literatures: four Vedas, then Upaniṣad, 108 Upaniṣad, then philosophy, Vedanta-sutra, all summarized. Then explanation of Vedanta-sutra, or Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhaṣyaṁ brahma-sutraṇam **. Then there is Ramayaṇa, there is Mahabharata, immense literature, full of Vedic literature. So one should try to understand this literature. They are meant for the human being. Veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ;. If one wants to be religious... Religious means that is the beginning of human life. If one is not religious, then he is animal. Dharmeṇa hinaḥ; pasubhiḥ; samanaḥ;. So in order to make a person perfectly religious, there are so many Vedic literatures. So who is taking care of it? Nobody is taking care of. Therefore, at the present moment, kalau sudra-sambhavaḥ;. Sudra means equal to the animal. Tulasi dasa has classified, dhol guṇar sudra pasu nari, ihe sab sasan ke adhikari.(?) So women will be sorry, but he has classified in that way. Anyway... So nobody is taking care of the Vedic literature. Therefore they do not know what is right, what is wrong. Dharma, dharma means right and wrong.

But Bhagavad-gita is the essence of all Vedic literature. Sarva-gavopanisadam.(?) It is the essence of all Vedic literature. Therefore Krṣṇa says... What is the purpose of Vedas? You may be very learned scholar in Vedas, then what you have learned, Vedanta? Vedanta means the last knowledge of Vedas. So Vedanta is, Krṣṇa is explaining in the Bhagavad-gita, vedanta-krd vedanta-vid eva caham.

sarvasya cahaṁ hrdi sanniviṣṭo
mattaḥ; smrtir jñanam apohanaṁ ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham
[Bg. 15.15]

So the summary is there. Krṣṇa is sitting, sarvasya ca aham, hrdi, within the heart, sanniviṣṭaḥ;, "I am seated there." Isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 18.61]. And He is giving intelligence and forgetfulness. Why one is forgetful of Krṣṇa, and why one is conscious of Krṣṇa? That is also due to Krṣṇa. One who has tried to forget Krṣṇa—then Krṣṇa is giving him opportunity to forget Krṣṇa. One who is trying to know Krṣṇa, then Krṣṇa is giving intelligence to know Krṣṇa. This is the process. Krṣṇa is there. If you want to know Krṣṇa, then Krṣṇa will give you intelligence how to know Him. If you want to forget Krṣṇa, then He will give you, mislead you in such a way that you will forever forget Krṣṇa. Sarvasya cahaṁ hrdi sanniviṣṭaḥ; [Bg. 15.15].

That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Tan ahaṁ dviṣataḥ; kruran kṣipamy ajasram andha-yoniṣu [Bg. 16.19]. Those who are asuras, demons, trying to defy the existence of God, Krṣṇa, Krṣṇa is putting him in such circumstances, in such family, in such society, in such community, in such country, that he will have no opportunity to know Krṣṇa. Tan ahaṁ dviṣa... Because he is envious of Krṣṇa, wants to forget Krṣṇa, so Krṣṇa is putting him in such circumstances. And one who is little eager to know Krṣṇa, then Krṣṇa is giving the intelligence.

teṣaṁ satata-yuktanaṁ
bhajataṁ priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ
yena mam upayanti te
[Bg. 10.10]

Everything is said there. Teṣaṁ satata-yuktanam. Anyone who is twenty-four hours engaged in... How he is engaged? Bhajatam, simply for bhajana. Bhajana means worshiping, "How to worship Krṣṇa?" Satata-yuktanam, and twenty-four hours anxious, "How to serve Krṣṇa? How to serve Krṣṇa?" To become mad after Krṣṇa, such person... Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, sunyayitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me: "I see everything vacant being separated from Govinda." This is called love. So, of course, it is not possible to come to that position like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That is maha-bhava, maha-bhava. It is not for any human being to come to that stage. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu has shown how to become mad after Krṣṇa by His life when He was in Jagannatha Puri, Caitanya. At night He would go out and fall down on the sea or somewhere. Nobody knows. The door was closed, and still, He would get out and go, and, "Where is Krṣṇa? Where is Krṣṇa?" Then His assistants, secretaries, would go out and find out Him. So for eighteen years He was in that way in Jagannatha Puri. That is called maha-bhava.

So it is not possible for human being. But at least, not maha-bhava but bhava, that we can... Bhava. Tato bhavaḥ;. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttiḥ; syat tato niṣṭha rucis tataḥ;, athasaktis tato bhavaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. One can increase gradually to the stage of bhava. This bhava stage, that separation... Just like the Gosvamis, when they were in Vrndavana, they were feeling this bhava. He radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno kutaḥ;. And they were simply searching after in the Vrndavana forest. He radhe, "Radharaṇi," vraja-devike, "all the gopis," he radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno: "O the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krṣṇa." Kutaḥ;, "Where you are all?" This is bhava. "Where you are all?" Sri-govardhana-kalpa-padapa-tale kalindi-vane kutaḥ;: "Where you are? Are you near the Govardhana Hill or some forest on the bank of the Yamuna? Please let me know." Ghoṣantav iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair maha-vihvalau. In this way they were searching after Krṣṇa, "Where is Krṣṇa? Where is Krṣṇa?" and crying, ghoṣantav iti maha-vihvalau, just like madmen. This is Krṣṇa consciousness. This is the highest perfection of Krṣṇa consciousness, when one will be mad after Krṣṇa, "Where is Krṣṇa? Where is Krṣṇa? Where is Krṣṇa?" That is... Caitanya Mahaprabhu also showed us that way. The Gosvamis also showed us that way.

Therefore Narottama dasa Ṭhakura says that we must follow the Gosvamis and their servant. Ei chay gosai jaṅr—taṅr mui das: "I am not going to be a servant of anyone. But a person who has taken the six Gosvamis as his master, I become his servant." Ei chay gosai jaṅr—taṅr mui das. "Why I shall become anyone's dasa? But if somebody is the servant of the Gosvamis, then I become his servant." Ei chay gosai jaṅr—taṅr mui das, taṅ-sabara pada-reṇu mora pañca-gras: "Their dust of lotus feet, that is my food." This is... Narottama dasa Ṭhakura says. Ei chay gosai jabe braje koila bas, radha-krṣṇa-nitya-lila korila prakas. What is the business of Gosvamis? From Vrndavana they tried to broadcast the pastimes of Lord Krṣṇa, Krṣṇa and Radha. Ei chay gosai jabe braje koila bas. So we should follow that principle, that we should not be packed up. Sometimes we find in Vrndavana they say, "No, no, I have taken vow. I am not going out of Vrndavana." Of course, the Gosvamis did not get out of Vrndavana, but they preached. Nana-sastra-vicaraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthapakau. They were always engaged in writing books, nana-sastra, various sastra, scripture always studying, and taking essence of the sastra and presenting to the world people. Why? Sad-dharma-saṁsthapakau: just to establish real religious principle, nana-sastra-vicaraṇaika-nipuṇau, with scrutinizing thinking over and giving to the people. This is Gosvamis' business. Nana-sastra-vicaraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthapakau. Why? Lokanaṁ hita-kariṇau: for the benefit of the whole human society. Lokanaṁ hita-kariṇau manyau saraṇyakarau. Therefore one should take shelter of the Gosvamis. That is Gosvami.

So here, veda-praṇihita, the Veda. The Vedic literature, that is dharma, no manufacturing. Nowadays it has become a fashion. So Vedas, that is beginning. Millions, nobody can give any description, since when the Vedas are coming down by the parampara system. But after this Vedic period, so many religious system has come out. Up to five thousand years before, the Vedas were accepted all over the world, Vedic civilization. Then later on, gradually, they, the Christianity has come, the Muhammadanism, Islamism has come, Buddhism come, and now there are so many other, this samaja, that samaja, this religion, this religion, this religion. Because that means people are getting out of the touch of the Vedic civilization. So this Krṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying again to bring them to this Vedic civilization. Here it is stated, veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ;. If you take to the Vedic principles of life, then you become religious. And what is that Vedic principle? Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ; [Bg. 15.15]. Krṣṇa says, "Vedic principle means to know Me, Krṣṇa." Vedais ca sarvaiḥ;. Veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ;. And what is Veda? Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ;. So... "But there is Vedanta?" Yes. Vedanta-krd vedanta-vid aham: "I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I know what is Vedanta." So whatever Krṣṇa says, that is Vedanta. And other so-called Vedantists, they are nonsense. They do not know what is Vedanta. Here is. Krṣṇa says, vedanta-vit: "I know what is Vedanta." "Why You know?" Vedanta-krt: "I have compiled Vedanta." In the incarnation of Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva incarnation, Krṣṇa-dvaipayana Vyasa... Maha-muni-krte. Maha-muni, the great sage, Vyasadeva, is incarnation of Krṣṇa. So he has compiled Vedanta-sutra. Therefore he knows what is Vedanta. And because Vedanta is being misinterpreted by the rascals, therefore Vyasadeva personally has commented on Vedanta-sutra by writing Srimad-Bhagavatam. Therefore he begins Srimad-Bhagavatam with the first aphorism of Vedanta, janmady asya yataḥ; anvayad itaratas ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ; sva-raṭ [SB 1.1.1].

So this Krṣṇa consciousness movement is Vedic movement, authorized. Veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ;. If one becomes Krṣṇa conscious, then he knows what is dharma and what is adharma. He knows who is punishable, who is not punishable. In this way, if you follow the principles of Krṣṇa consciousness... It is in a different way. Not different way; Krṣṇa name is there. When I registered this association, many friends requested me that "Why you are, nomenclature, this 'Krṣṇa'? Make it 'God consciousness.' " And "No." As soon as I give "God consciousness," all the rascals will bring so many false God. Therefore it must be definitely stated, "Krṣṇa consciousness." So try to follow Krṣṇa consciousness movement. Then you will be situated in the Vedic civilization, and you will know everything properly. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñate sarvam idaṁ vijñataṁ bhavati. If you understand Krṣṇa, then you understand everything. This is Krṣṇa consciousness.

Thank you very much. (end)

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