Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi
Bombay
24 Apr

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Karttikeya... He's your son? No.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, he's my nephew.

Prabhupada: Nephew. Good boy.

Mr. Dwivedi: And he's his brother-in-law. I came with one request and also a suggestion, if that is appealable to Your Holiness. When I had been there in the night at home I has pondered a little, and I thought I am on very good terms with Mr. Jetthi, easily approachable for me. Even in spite of the ministerial crisis on the 22nd, he met me. On the 2lst evening I went to Vrndavana. So I saw the, our Mr. President, Aksaya Maharaja. He wanted me to stay. I said, "No, I am going away. I'm going with Mr. Jetthi for tomorrow." And I think if he is just a little free from government engagements, he would like to preside or inaugurate this function, and I would call it the inauguration of the Krishna Consciousness Society branch in the state of Madhya Pradesh and at this place. And therefore, as soon as I'll get permission from Your Holiness, I shall try to contact him tonight on telephone.

Prabhupada: It is... I think it is a good proposal. If President comes, it must be very successful. It is very good chance.

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I have your permission, I'll do this.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I... For mine, that... You told that "You gain your weight, increase your weight." That induced me.

Mr. Dwivedi: The very fact that Your Holiness will be going there, that has manifold increased our... We are not worried about that.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Then accept. Then accept.

Mr. Dwivedi: As the saying goes in Ramayana, sevaka sadhana svami avagamanu, mangalun amangala harlun(?).

Prabhupada: And you are inviting Mr. Jetthi. So it is good opportunity. Let us...

Mr. Dwivedi: Failing that... If, somehow or other, he's not free... Because time is short, and if Jetthi says yes, then I have to go to the Chief Minister, because on previous occasion I told him I wanted him on a particular function. He said, "You do this. Then get this straight. Otherwise the president of our league(?) becomes expensive, so the expenditure will go over the head of the state." He showed me the way. So then immediately after, he said, "Yes." Then I, right from Delhi itself, I made a telephone call to the Chief Minister, and I said, "Such and such appealing, Mr. Jetthi is going, and I want to be present in the matter, and I request you also that you please participate."

Prabhupada: Now the Chief Minister...

Mr. Dwivedi: Is Mr. Sukla there. Because then they'll have to make other arrangements.

Prabhupada: Sukla?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Camartan(?) Sukla.

Prabhupada: Oh. He was a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupada: He's a Kanpur man?

Mr. Dwivedi: No. Originally they might be coming from Kanpur, but now from Raipur. He's younger brother of this Vidya Charan, who was Broadcasting Minister. And in fact, even I'll... If I get... One of our workers is already there. I got a letter yesterday. So the principal of the college is going to Bhopal, and if I can contact him somewhere if he is available...

Prabhupada: Bhopal is the capital.

Mr. Dwivedi: Bhopal is the capital.

Tamala Krsna: We had a big function in Bhopal, my party, for about ten days a few years ago.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then I also desire, as Your Holiness is going, that press should be briefed right from Bombay. Why should I wait from Gwalior... Because I expect some people a few hundred miles off from Gwalior will also be traveling up to meet Your Holiness. So if they know beforehand in papers of Bombay it is better. Therefore I have requested my friend, Mr. Goswami, to give me two or three blocks. If it comes out that way, for our purposes also, he'll need it, and here also I shall try to make correspondence to one or two papers there, that they should ready to send their representatives over there, that way.

Tamala Krsna: Supposing that Mr. Jetthi is not available, do you have some second choice?

Mr. Dwivedi: Then my second choice will be on Mr. Nanda. Mr. Nanda also knows me.

Prabhupada: Nanda knows me very well. Nanda...

Mr. Dwivedi: He also knows me, and he wanted to start a yogasrama over there but for himself, and he had a mind.

Prabhupada: I don't think... If Jetthi does not come, then don't attend from any other.

Mr. Dwivedi: And Jetthi will be best, definitely.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Jetthi will be the best.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada's idea is that unless...

Mr. Dwivedi: So Nanda I'll drop. Only if Mr. Jetthi comes, all right.

Prabhupada: That's all, yes. Otherwise, let us go...

Mr. Dwivedi: And for your stay for the night I'm giving a call today to the Birla brothers at Gwalior, and if their guesthouse is free, then I will try to accommodate you there for the night. Of course, all this means little more spending of the petrol, but that is inevitable. We'll have to spend it. There is no go...

Prabhupada: That doesn't matter.

Tamala Krsna: No.

Mr. Dwivedi: There is no go out of it.

Karttikeya: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if we are going to Mr. Jetthi, though there is plane service, but plane reaches in two days. Therefore I will not take up the plane. If he says yes, I'll have to take a car, see him, come back, return in about twelve hours' time, five hours to go to Delhi, five hours to come back, and another two hours just to meet him, straightaway only meeting him. Even if he says yes, then also, before I leave my place, I will once again confirm him on telephone that "I am stopping on such and such time, and you give me another two hours' margin if something goes wrong with the car."

Tamala Krsna: How he will go there?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Car.

Tamala Krsna: Mr. Jetthi will go to Gwalior by car?

Karttikeya: No, they leave from...

Mr. Dwivedi: Gwalior... Gwalior I may be going by train, but it is just possible that I am asking this young man, my cousin, if he kindly accompanies me, to share part of my work, in order to get things done, if he can take his car. I don't know whether he can. So I am requesting him. If he can spare about a week's time, he'll be a great help because...

Tamala Krsna: Yes, he will do the...

Mr. Dwivedi: ...the installation will...

Prabhupada: He's young man. He can work.

Mr. Dwivedi: If tomorrow I'm meeting... Mr. Mondalia(?) is coming tomorrow, and if I can only meet him, then I'm asking him... I think he'll give us a thousand meters of electric wire, another two-three hundred bulbs. So I'll not have to spend anything. Only I have to take it and put things over there.

Prabhupada: Mondalia knows our movement.

Tamala Krsna: Which Mondalia are you meeting?

Mr. Dwivedi: D.P. Mondalia, I mean.

Tamala Krsna: D.P...

Mr. Dwivedi: D.P. Mondalia.

Tamala Krsna: He's our good member and everything.

Mr. Dwivedi: Very good man.

Prabhupada: The son or the father?

Tamala Krsna: All three, the father and S.P., Shanti Praja... He's our member also.

Mr. Dwivedi: S.P. is father.

Tamala Krsna: D.P. is also our member and S.P., and Ashok, their grandson, is also a member. All three men are...

Mr. Dwivedi: So I know D.P. more than S.P., though I know father and son both, and including their wives. They have been participating in our functions.

Prabhupada: No, they are very nice.

Tamala Krsna: Very nice.

Prabhupada: Very nice.

Mr. Dwivedi: Even here we had a dramatic performance in aid of Rural India in which one of the ministers, Mr. Yajni, provided, and Patel also was there, and Mr. D.P. Mondalia was one of the chief guests over there. And otherwise also, I get lot of help from D.P. So I expect him tomorrow, and if I meet him... Normally what happens is he sees me the next day of his coming. But I'll try to press upon him, if I meet him tomorrow, then also most of my...

Prabhupada: (aside:) You want to talk?

Mr. Dwivedi: ...the difficulty will be solved.

Prabhupada: You want to talk with me?

Bhakti-caru: Yeah, I was wondering... (Bengali)

Prabhupada: (Bengali)

Tamala Krsna: So, as I told you yesterday, as far as you are able, you make arrangements.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Tamala Krsna: Whatever else you cannot afford, that much we will pay. You don't have to worry like that. You make a nice arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Don't, you know...

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I understand.

Prabhupada: And you, you get seat in Punjab Mail.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, tomorrow morning we're going.

Prabhupada: Punjab Mail is best. Punjab Mail.

Indian man (1): Most suitable train.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Most suitable train is Punjab Mail. You leave here about four o'clock, quarter past four, and you are at Gwalior round about two o'clock.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Indian man: About quarter to two.

Karttikeya: Less than twenty-four hours.

Mr. Dwivedi: Less than twenty-four hours. Twenty-two hours.

Tamala Krsna: Are there any other trains?

Mr. Dwivedi: That... You have got the night train, leaving nine o'clock. That is taking you Gwalior at eleven o'clock in the night.

Tamala Krsna: No, no, no...

Mr. Dwivedi: That is inconvenient.

Tamala Krsna: Punjab must be the best.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is only the best train. Punjab Mail is the best train.

Tamala Krsna: I already told someone to book everything. I've given them all information. Tomorrow morning I'm giving them the money for purchasing the tickets.

Karttikeya: Mr. Jetthi's coming here in Bombay lst of May or 2nd of May to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

Prabhupada: Who?

Karttikeya: Dayanand(?) Jetthi.

Mr. Dwivedi: But I... I'll have a phone call with him today, and I'll ask him where he may stay. Of course, I would like to meet him.

Prabhupada: You can also inform him that we are going to organize the village organization according to Gandhi's program.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is our proposal.

Mr. Dwivedi: He will help me.

Prabhupada: With spiritual idea.

Mr. Dwivedi: Mr. Jetthi, he will also help me with this program.

Prabhupada: Gandhi's program plus spiritual. Gandhi's program...

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...plus spiritual idea. Gandhi had no spiritual program. Therefore it was a failure. But here that simple living plus spiritual program, that will affect.

Mr. Dwivedi: Just to rephrase, I have written this...

Tamala Krsna: I can go over that. That's advertising. I can do this with him outside, Srila Prabhupada.

Mr. Dwivedi: I have written this letter for you so that...

Prabhupada: You read it.

Tamala Krsna: "To Shree Tamala Krsna Goswami, Hare Krishna Land, Juhu. Dear friend, I am extremely grateful to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Guru Maharaja for giving me his precious few minutes yesterday and your good self for arranging the interview. I request that His Divine Grace be graciously pleased to fix a date for His Divine Grace's visit to Pauri to inaugurate International Krishna Society branch of Madhya Pradesh at Pauri and to revitalize and modernize the rural uplift activities of the Adarsh Seva Sanga. With profound regards, yours fraternally, H. S. Dwivedi."

Prabhupada: So?

Mr. Dwivedi: So if I get the letter from you... In fact, I drafted this letter for you also. You can make necessary changes in it, so if I get it, even a tentative day, that will be convenient for me. I'll be able to approach the press people over here, and they will just spread out the news.

Tamala Krsna: "As per your request and as per interview you had with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on 23/4/77, His Divine Grace with his entourage will..." [break] ...is a Thursday. Fifth: the program was to be from 5th to 8th, meant Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Now whether these days will be easier for people to attend? Just like your idea is that some people from Gwalior will come and others. My feeling is that they'll have an easier time to come on a Sunday or on a Saturday evening.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: But if we arrive on 7th, which is Sunday night, and the program begins on Monday night, then I think it will be all weekdays, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, which is...

Prabhupada: There is... In the village there is no such consideration.

Tamala Krsna: But his idea was also to invite some of the respectable gentlemen from the neighboring areas, Srila Prabhupada, and they may...

Prabhupada: That is...

Mr. Dwivedi: It could be... When you... If the program should really start on Saturday, er, Sunday...

Karttikeya: Thursday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Sunday.

Karttikeya: Saturday. May also on Sunday, but starting on Friday, Saturday.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, you may reach there on Saturday, but program should be start on Sunday. Saturday-Sunday.

Prabhupada: We are starting on Friday, hm?

Tamala Krsna: That's... No, we were going to start on Wednesday and reach Thursday, and program was to start Friday. Friday evening, Saturday evening, Sunday evening, and Monday evening. Now he's proposing, Mr. Dwivedi's proposing, that we leave here Friday and arrive Saturday evening and that the program begins Sunday evening, Monday evening, Tuesday evening and Wednesday evening. Do you think the extra time is required?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, time will be little... Even whatever little time that we... The time is already very short.

Prabhupada: No, I have no objection.

Mr. Dwivedi: But nothing could be... We must have this, this little time.

Tamala Krsna: All right.

Mr. Dwivedi: Because if Mr. Jetthi comes, then even it will be difficult for the state government to manage so quickly.

Tamala Krsna: The next question is this: When will you know when Mr. Jetthi will be coming?

Mr. Dwivedi: Myself?

Tamala Krsna: When will you get it confirmed?

Mr. Dwivedi: I think... Today, 29th... 24th, 25th, 26th... On 30th.

Tamala Krsna: So how can we book our tickets? Supposing Mr. Jetthi says that "I'll come on the 12th..." We don't know. He's the President of India. Supposing his calendar is only available that he can come by the 12th?

Prabhupada: No, you can conveniently book. We shall wait.

Karttikeya: No, it is easily bookable, this... For this purpose you go to the Mr...., Central Manager. I know the man.

Tamala Krsna: So my only point is, should we book any specific date until it from, here from Mr....?

Prabhupada: No, you... Suppose tentatively we accept that we shall start a program on Sunday. In that way you book. So if Jetthi cannot come, then we shall wait. What is that?

Tamala Krsna: To me it's nothing, but they have to agree at the railway to change the booking.

Prabhupada: No, no. There is no need of changing booking. We go there.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, oh, we go, and we wait there.

Prabhupada: Hm hm.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, that's all right. I have no... I mean... My point is that the longer we have to book, the better. Not that we change ten days...

Prabhupada: No. Booking should be accepted any day is available.

Karttikeya: We'll wait there only.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's the best.

Karttikeya: So if that is good, so when we can stay there?

Mr. Dwivedi: You reach there on the 6th. So that 7th morning will be... So Saturday you are at Gwalior, and then Sunday you'll be there. Evening program will start.

Prabhupada: You book whichever date is just convenient. That's all.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, may I ask you a question?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Tamala Krsna: If you're going to be traveling a full day, from Friday to Saturday...

Prabhupada: Friday-Saturday?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, you're going to be traveling Friday afternoon and evening and Saturday during the day. Then you're going to get into Gwalior. Probably we'll arrive at the house by five or six at night, evening.

Karttikeya: Three o'clock.

Tamala Krsna: No. The train arrives three. You won't reach the house till 4:30 or five, by the time we get out of the train and get to the house. I'm trying to make this following point.

Prabhupada: No, no... From the station how far it is, the house?

Mr. Dwivedi: My place for staying?

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: Not more than two miles.

Prabhupada: The point I'm trying to make is simply this, that you're going to be traveling for a full day. The next day, you're going to be traveling for three hours. Whether you're going to feel strong enough to do the program the same evening or whether we should arrive...? The program may begin Sunday night, but my point is that we should arrive and you should have enough time to rest before you start preaching that same night. 'Cause I think it's going to be exhausting that you travel all day, then again you travel that morning, and then the same evening you have to give a program for two hours. That's exhausting. Why not let us arrive one day earlier, but the program can begin Sunday, as Mr. Dwivedi's suggesting? But let us arrive a day earlier, so you can you have a little rest there.

Prabhupada: So earlier means when?

Tamala Krsna: That we arrive... My proposal is that instead of arriving on 7th, we will arrive on 6th. Prabhupada will arrive 6th.

Prabhupada: Then you'll have to...

Mr. Dwivedi: 6th is what...?

Tamala Krsna: 6th is Friday. We will arrive 6th.

Mr. Dwivedi: 6th is Friday.

Tamala Krsna: But the program may be...

Prabhupada: Then you have to, we have to start on Thursday.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Tamala Krsna: No good.

Prabhupada: No, no. Thursday I cannot.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, right.

Prabhupada: Thursday end is not good. Then you have to start on Wednesday.

Tamala Krsna: Somehow you should not become exhausted. That's not the purpose of going there, to become worn out. I mean, you know, we have to think practically about how you're feeling also.

Prabhupada: No, if you start on Friday, we are reaching on Saturday.

Tamala Krsna: Right.

Prabhupada: Then...

Tamala Krsna: Afternoon, Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Tamala Krsna: Saturday afternoon.

Prabhupada: Then we get rest the whole night.

Tamala Krsna: Well, we get rest for, say, twelve hours' rest. But then you have to travel again to go to Pauri district, which may be exhausting.

Karttikeya: Seventy-five miles.

Tamala Krsna: I can't say what... I mean, we don't know. It's a winding road. It may get you tired for traveling.

Prabhupada: Winding?

Mr. Dwivedi: Not very winding. There are two roads. There are two roads. There is is one road which is little winding. There is another road, but we have to travel eighteen miles more. Not winding, Agra-Bombay road. So there is a straight Agra-Bombay road also. But we have to take an extra eighteen miles more drive.

Karttikeya: Eighty?

Mr. Dwivedi: Eighteen. One-eight.

Prabhupada: So that is not...

Mr. Dwivedi: So we can take either. And even this is not so very zig-zaggy and we are... No, not much. Not much.

Prabhupada: But anyway, we are going to hold session on Sunday.

Tamala Krsna: Right.

Prabhupada: Then? What is the problem?

Tamala Krsna: Well, my point is that you're going to have to travel Sunday morning to get there, and then hold a function Sunday evening, so whether that's going to be tiring? That's all I'm bringing out.

Prabhupada: The morning, how many hours?

Tamala Krsna: Travel...

Mr. Dwivedi: Three hours.

Tamala Krsna: Three hours.

Prabhupada: And that's all right.

Tamala Krsna: All right. I've seen it, that three hours' traveling can be very tiring.

Prabhupada: What do you want to make?

Tamala Krsna: My proposal is that you should be able to rest before the program begins, sufficient rest.

Karttikeya: You have to go on Wednesday then.

Prabhupada: Then you arrange for Wednesday.

Mr. Dwivedi: Supposing, say, about what time in the morning you start? If you start about five o'clock, by about eight o'clock you'll get Pauri. And Maharaja will be having about ten hours' rest.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, it sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamala Krsna: It sounds all right.

Mr. Dwivedi: About ten hours' rest.

Tamala Krsna: To you or me, at least.

Mr. Dwivedi: And the function could be minimized according to our convenience. That also...

Tamala Krsna: All right, so let's keep it at that. I mean, I'm not trying to go against everybody. I'm only trying to think for your well-being.

Prabhupada: No, no, my attendance there... Actually kirtana and other things will be done by you.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So I'll sit down. That is all.

Tamala Krsna: Okay.

Prabhupada: So the most important thing is, if the President is coming, it will be very good starting.

Mr. Dwivedi: I can say I'm not conversant with your physical condition. That's my misfortune. Personally, though, I am very young before you, though I am running sixty-eight. I don't find any difficulty. I go anyway, standing, sitting, and I...

Prabhupada: No, you are quite healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: I'm quite healthy, by God's grace. Quite healthy by God's grace. And I enjoy better sleep in the train than at home. I sleep in the train at will. And usually I make good the deficiency of my sleep in the train.

Prabhupada: No, sleeping in the train, there is no difficulty.

Karttikeya: No, some people do not get. Because of the movement, some people do not get sometimes.

Tamala Krsna: You've slept pretty well whenever we take train.

Karttikeya: (aside:) Does he like air-conditioned coach?

Tamala Krsna: (aside:) No, he likes the open. He likes open air.

Prabhupada: So do that.

Tamala Krsna: Okay.

Prabhupada: And if I actually feel little healthy, I shall stay there for some time to improve my health.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. That's one thing I could say.

Prabhupada: That is healthy.

Mr. Dwivedi: Climate is healthy. Water is healthy.

Prabhupada: Then let us go there.

Karttikeya: What is the height of the place, from the sea level?

Mr. Dwivedi: Sea level, we are 1700 feet.

Prabhupada: That's all...

Mr. Dwivedi: And then all round about is forest.

Karttikeya: Forest is there.

Mr. Dwivedi: Oh, yes.

Karttikeya: That's good thing.

Mr. Dwivedi: Hardly we can't walk even for, say, half a mile. Then forest comes up.

Karttikeya: That is very good thing, not only the height.

Prabhupada: Forest breeze is very healthy. So let us arrange.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is literally correct. If from the boundary of our school I take a gofen(?) and throw a stone, it will go to the forest next side.

Prabhupada: So make arrangement.

Mr. Dwivedi: And very near about there are beautiful places. Maharaja will be able to enjoy them only from below, but we have a Kedara Sakti, a beautiful cave temple.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And round about the whole year from the mountain water flows back, water drizzles over a banyan tree and then inside into the mountain...

Prabhupada: It is waterfall.

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall. The waterfall is different. This water drizzles from the mountain. Waterfall is five miles away, so I do not count it. They say 150 feet or so, waterfall.

Prabhupada: How far it is, waterfall?

Mr. Dwivedi: Waterfall is about four or five miles away from our buildings.

Prabhupada: Oh, that's nothing.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this is...

Prabhupada: Very good atmosphere.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is just a mile or even less than a mile from our colony itself. River there... First of all there is river. Your Holiness may not be... Your Holiness will be able to see it from the riverside. But other people, my friend Gosvami, will be able to go up over the mountain. It's not a very...

Prabhupada: And river, river, how far it is, river?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon? River, there are two rivers. One river is a small nada, but it flows throughout the year, where we have a scheme for starting dairy. So that is actually shaving our school boundary. Then there is another river, where I am talking of the Kedaresvara temple. This is about a mile or about three-fourth of a mile...

Prabhupada: Good river.

Mr. Dwivedi: ...from our colony. And a fairly big...

Prabhupada: Canakya Panḍita says, or somebody, some authority says, that "In a place whether, where there is no friend, no temple and no river, don't go there."

Mr. Dwivedi: Ah, yes, yes, Maharaja. That is in Sukravetti. That is in Sukravetti. (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) "Nadi, friend and temple."

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) ...that is also shaving our colony, beautiful temple inside the waters.

Prabhupada: Our Indian touring means...

Karttikeya: River and temple.

Prabhupada: River and temple. That's all. All our holy places are on the bank of the Ganges, Yamuna, temple.

Karttikeya: Except Bombay. Bombay has no river.

Prabhupada: Bombay is big river, this... (laughter)

Mr. Dwivedi: Has got father of rivers.

Prabhupada: And the temple is there, Uma devi.

Karttikeya: Father of river is Himalaya.

Mr. Dwivedi: Give any name you like. As friend you may call.

Karttikeya: Father it is not, sagara.

Mr. Dwivedi: So there is this Kedara Sak..., Tenkara(?) temple. So many sadhus come there just to take various kinds of herbs and (indistinct) and they go away. They stay for the night. Ten, fifteen days' halt they make. And there is this beautiful cave-cut temple where throughout the year there is the siva-linga and on it throughout the year water flows.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And inside the temple itself there is little pond, so deep, and we may take any quantity out of it. The water, only that much quantity is there.

Prabhupada: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: So this is a mile's, hardly, less than a mile's distance from our colony. And the river it is perennial river. We have to just cross it, and it gives good passage, particularly during this season. All seasons practically we go and go over the mountain and the temple. Then, on the roadside itself near our colony, there is a water temple. We call it Jagamandir(?). That is also a beautiful temple. It's like the (indistinct) type. And one story of that temple is always in the water. Even in the summer, when Your Holiness will go there, Your Holiness will find. And that is Krsna's temple.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: And some of the photographs which were shown to me yesterday, I find the ditto in that temple, Radha-Krsna's temple.

Prabhupada: Good place.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the... I think I got a view of that temple.

Prabhupada: Good engagement. So Karttika, you are coming?

Karttikeya: If you're not going to Kashmir, I'll come with you.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karttikeya: If you are not going to Kashmir for the month of May...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Karttikeya: ...then I will come.

Mr. Dwivedi: This is the view of that temple, Maharaja.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Dwivedi: This Jagamandir.

Prabhupada: Very good temple. Radha-Krsna?

Mr. Dwivedi: Radha-Krsna temple. This is near our colony.

Karttikeya: (Hindi) So there is the water all around.

Mr. Dwivedi: All around. And one story is in the water itself. That is not shown here also. But here one story is throughout in the water.

Karttikeya: Is it an old temple or a new temple?

Mr. Dwivedi: Old temple.

Karttikeya: Place is old, but the temple is new.

Mr. Dwivedi: No, not new. Temple is also about two hundred years old. And it has a beautiful story behind it. This was the (Hindi), this Pauri. So the cashier, he spent the whole treasury in building up this temple. And when the news went to the yajñirdatta(?)... Then they did not meet very so frequently as they started meeting now in our life. Every six months they tries to come over there. So he took a diamond, and the cashier, then he died. Yajñirdatta was very sorry. He gave, he granted a yajñir(?) for that family of the temple, about six thousand rupees every..., a yearly yajñir for this much amount, some land and yajñir and all that. So this is a public temple that way.

Prabhupada: There is another story like that, Rama Mandir. Rama Mandir. In South India. What is that state?

Mr. Dwivedi: And at Gwalior also we have got a beautiful temple of Lord Krsna. We call it Sanatana Dharma Mandir.

Prabhupada: So we shall see that temple.

Mr. Dwivedi: But that is with the only Krsna with cakra-sudarsana in His hand.

Prabhupada: Vasudeva Krsna.

Mr. Dwivedi: Ha, Vasudeva.

Prabhupada: That Rama Mandir, there is story that the treasurer, he spent money. (laughs)

Karttikeya: Spent money.

Prabhupada: Yes. And the nawab was informed that "He is spending money from your treasury." Then he: "How is that, you are spending without permission?" So he did not reply. "Yes, I have done." "Then you pay." So he was arrested, that "You misspent, misappropriated this money." Then at night two young men, that "You take the money from us and release him." So he said, "If I get money, I will release them." So when he woke up from dream, he saw the money and took up. But the boys were not there. Then he understood that he's a rama-bhakta, rama-darsana. So he immediately called him that "You are released, and you also take this money, and do your service to Ramacandra, as you like." Amernaka. Amernaka(?) (Hindi).

Karttikeya: Amadara?

Prabhupada: Formerly India was very advanced in devotion.

Mr. Dwivedi: And just near there is moving door, shutting door. It has got nine pillars. If you just push one pillar, the entire structure shifts. And the pity is the archaeological department of government of India has taken no care about this. We had some good statue of Buddha and Mahavira and... Two, three were stolen away. We collected at our own institution. Then ultimately I wrote to government. I said, "Already some statue have been stolen away. You kindly left it wherever you like. We can't protect them from thieves." Just three months back. Then they took away another three statue, one of Visnu, one of Buddha, another of Mahavira.

Prabhupada: Stone?

Mr. Dwivedi: One big, one were stolen. Three... I asked government. I asked them three times. Government has not yet taken them away from there. Otherwise we had collected it at our own headquarters and institute.

Tamala Krsna: Deity of Krsna?

Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?

Prabhupada: No, Buddha.

Mr. Dwivedi: Buddha. And Visnu.

Tamala Krsna: Visnu?

Mr. Dwivedi: You'll find in India, most of the statues, ancient ones, are of Visnu because, perhaps, Visnu is a more ancient Vedic God than Krsna.

Prabhupada: Krsna is the origin...

Mr. Dwivedi: I do not know much about it, but that's what I hear. And therefore you find more statues of Visnu than Krsna. But nobody might be stealing statues of Krsna, and He might be still there with His cakra-sudarsana.

Prabhupada: Tad visnoḥ; paramam padam. Ṛg Veda. Visnu... Om tad visnoḥ; paramam padam sada pasyanti surayaḥ;. Visnu is the Vedic Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Mr. Dwivedi: Round about Gwalior, there is a good sage, almost, Maharaja, of your age. And he's a tantrika-sastri and jyotisa. He's the founder of Pitambar Pith. That is a Sanskrit school, but otherwise practicing...

Prabhupada: Jatiya is near Gwalior?

Mr. Dwivedi: No, forty miles away from Gwalior.

Prabhupada: One lady lives in Vrndavana...

Mr. Dwivedi: He has written books also on tantra-sastra. And I understand most of these ministers, they were going to seek his blessings. I did not know to whom he gave his blessings, but what I know is that most of these people were going to him. I only... One day I asked him. He's very kind towards me, so I go to him and dine with him. So I told him one day, I said, "Maharaja, you speak to mahatlal (?) people to give some money to our institution." He said, "Mr. Dwivedi, I do not ask any friends or anybody to do anything for me or to anybody." So then I said, "Maharaja, then I put one question to you if you permit me." He said, "All right, I permit you." So I asked, "Vivekananda has said that 'Service of God... Service of humanity is service of God.' Do you think it is correct or it is incorrect?" He said, "This is correct." Then I said, "We are running educational institution. Whatever good or bad, leave that aside. But in our own little small way we are rendering little service to humanity. And..."

Prabhupada: But I may interfere. The... In the Bhagavad-gita is there such statement, that "Service to humanity is service to God"? Is there any statement?

Mr. Dwivedi: Daridranam bhara kaunteya... (?) I think there is somewhere...

Prabhupada: There is no.

Mr. Dwivedi: But this particular I remember, daridranam bhara kaunteya...

Prabhupada: This is... This is wrong theory. Don't maintain this. This is a very wrong theory. Just like "Service to the leaves is service to the root." Is it not wrong? What do you think? Like a tree, so where the service should be given, to the root or to the leaf?

Mr. Dwivedi: The root.

Prabhupada: Then why do you say like that? And Krsna says openly, mam ekam saranam vraja. He doesn't even recommend to worship demigods. Kamais tais tair hrta-jñanaḥ; yajanty anya-devataḥ; [Bg. 7.20]. So these are imagination, concoction. They are not authorized. Vivekananda advocated daridra-narayana-seva hundred years ago. So India is full of daridras. What Mothilal can do? What Vivekananda can do? This is all simply concoction. You cannot do anything.

prakrteḥ; kriyamanani
gunaiḥ; karmani sarvasaḥ;
ahankara-vimuḍhatma
kartaham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

The nature's law will go on. You cannot make a poor man a rich man, unhappy man an happy man. That is not possible. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. Can you make a hog eat halava instead of stool? Can you make? By nature's way it is going on. Ahankara-vimuḍhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These are foolish person who concoct ideas. It is not possible. If you can do anything to the human society, induce him to become a Krsna devotee.

ya idam paramam guhyam
mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati
[Bg 18.68]

na ca tasman manusyesu
kascin me priya-krttamaḥ;
[Bg. 18.69]

Krsna says. So Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam... [Bg. 18.66]. Teach people that "You take it." That is real benefit. Otherwise you cannot do anything. What you can do?

Indian man: The persons are the root.

Prabhupada: Yes! Root should be given water.

Tamala Krsna: He says, "Persons are the root."

Karttikeya: Person is the root.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Tamala Krsna: He says, "Persons are the root."

Prabhupada: No, Krsna is the root.

Karttikeya: Krsna is the root.

Prabhupada: Janmady asya yataḥ; [SB 1.1.1]. This is the Vedanta. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2], Krsna says. So devanam, Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara, He is the origin of Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. The root is Krsna. Karanam... Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1].

isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ;
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ;
anadir adir govindaḥ;
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]

Root is Krsna.

Indian man: Origin.

Prabhupada: Origin, yes. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mat... [Bg. 10.8]. That is the difficulty. You do not read Bhagavad-gita. You quote Vivekananda. You quote another, another. But Krsna is God. That is the cause of misfortune of India. You don't accept Krsna as the authority. Everyone accepts, all the great sages formerly, Asita, Devala, Vyasa. Svayam caiva bravisi me. And at the present era, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Caitanya—all accept, krsnas tu bhagavan [SB 1.3.28]. You don't follow the acaryas, the authorities, Krsna. You bring something.

Karttikeya: Concoction.

Prabhupada: That is the misfortune. They have left the authority, real authority. They have accepted some foolish man as authority. And that is the misfortune. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is, the supreme authority. Mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Why don't you take this? Distortion of our sastra, distortion of authority, and bringing something foolish, and you are following. Not... You cannot follow. That is not possible. It is not possible. But you are making some authorities. You trying to follow. Even if you follow... That, the same example, just like Vivekananda was advocating daridra-narayana. First of all this is a concocted word. How Narayana can be daridra? People have accepted. Narayana is daridra?

Mr. Dwivedi: No.

Prabhupada: Then how he manufactured this nonsense word? It is insulting. If I say, "Foolish Jetthi, President, rascal," so is it not insult? Similarly, if you say, daridra-narayana, it is insult to Narayana. But people are accepting daridra-narayana. Just see how they are misled.

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge, sir.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: They have not even proper knowledge.

Prabhupada: No knowledge. All rascals.

Karttikeya: Not even proper. No knowledge.

Prabhupada: :That is he difficulty. Rascals have become leaders.

Karttikeya: And we follow them.

Indian man: And we have to, actually. It is...

Karttikeya: Not we have to. Here is a leader. Why don't you follow him?

Indian man: But when we get the... Fortunately then we can do so.

Karttikeya: No, fortune is given.

Indian man: Yes.

Karttikeya: He has been doing it for so long.

Indian man: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: That is the misfortune of human society. The other thing...

Mr. Dwivedi: This also happens by good luck. As Ramayana says, vina hari-krpa na mile sat-sanga. (Hindi)

Karttikeya: No, that's not... You should not worry about a poor people then. You should worry about Krsna only. You should serve Him. You should become His devotee.

Prabhupada: There are... Poor people, so far concerned, that... Are we not taking care of the poor people? That is automatically taken. Who is poor? A man who is poor in knowledge, he is poor.

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, correct. Yes.

Prabhupada: Otherwise nobody's poor.

Tamala Krsna: Americans are very rich from...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: ...material point of view.

Prabhupada: Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise even a small ants, it is not poor. It is eating. You are not giving food. In this room you'll find some hole. Hundreds and thousands of ants will come out. Are you giving him food? And you go to the jungle. Thousands of elephants are there. Are you giving them food? Why you are concerned about the poor? Who is poor? Poor means who has no knowledge. He is rascal. He is poor. Poor means poor in knowledge. Otherwise nobody is poor. Everyone is getting his food according to his karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. These are wrong theories. Wrong means because they are rascals, they are putting something rascal, idea. Muḍhaḥ; nabhijanati mam ebhyaḥ; param avyayam, avyayam. Nityo nityanam ceta... This is Vedic version. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman (Kaṭha Upanisad 2.2.13). (Hindi) We want to stop all this nonsense. That is our mission. Our Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is that "You become guru," as I was telling, "and teach, deliver persons where you are." If you say, "How can I become guru?" there is no difficulty. Simply repeat the words of Bhagavad-gita. That's all. You become guru. So our mission is to create real guru, not these jugglers. And real guru is he who speaks on behalf of Krsna. And that is wan... It is very simple. Do you accept or not? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...manufacturing word, narayana daridra. Laksmi-pati is daridra. Kitna gadha. (Hindi) ...without checking. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) We want to reestablish this. This is our mission. Everything is there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upade... "You simply make your life successful by understanding Bhagavad-gita and preach this. You become guru." So where is the difficulty? Why don't you do that? Boliye. (Hindi) You quoted from Vivekananda, not from the Bhagavad-gita.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

yat karosi yad asnasi
yaj juhosi dadasi yat
yat tapasyasi kaunteya
tat kurusva mad-arpanam
[Bg. 9.27]

Prabhupada: This should be the... Take... Take Bhagavad-gita as the authority. Everything will be all right. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) ...founder. The first day I couldn't understand then... (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Everyone is isvara. (Hindi)

Karttikeya: He is jagad-guru.

Prabhupada: He is... Isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ; sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ; [Bs. 5.1], anadir adir... Anadi. (Hindi) You have got so exalted knowledge in India. You have kept it packed. And you are going to beg from others? Take this knowledge of Bhagavad-gita and assimilate it, make your life successful, and distribute it throughout the whole world. That I want. (Hindi) Knowledge, real knowledge, is in India. (Hindi) Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said,

bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

Indians, they are fortunate. They have got their birth in Bharatavarsa. The knowledge is here. So assimilate this knowledge. Make your life successful and distribute it to persons outside India. That is paropakara. That is real paropakara. That is real seva. But seva, no. It is daya. The seva cannot be used. Seva means offered to the superior. And to the inferior, if you want to do something, that is daya. There are words. Seva is only capable to accept, Krsna. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ; [Brs. 1.2.234]. These are... (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Seva-bhagavan accept, can accept.

ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya
yare yaiche nacaya se taiche kare nrtya
[Cc. Adi 5.142]

So master can accept service. So whenever there is devotional service, it is called bhagavata-seva. And jivera daya. (Hindi) If you have got something, then you can be merciful to others. If you have no knowledge, what you can do? The basic principle... (Hindi) In India, Bharatavarsa, exalted knowledge, and if it is presented properly, people will accept. They are accepting now, one man's effort. If many men are prepared to do this service, the whole world will be followers of Bhagavad-gita. (Hindi) [break] ... come to give here India's knowledge. In big meeting I told him that "I have not come here to beg. I have come here to give." Everyone goes from... Even the Prime Minister goes-beg. All beggars. And it is known as "beggars' nation." But you can be the giver nation. You have got so much potency. But we are not training people in that way. They are learning dog dancing. That's all. If we simply understand this one word, beginning of the Bhagavad-gita... There are so many students of Bhagavad-gita, but nobody understands Bhagavad-gita. The beginning is,

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]

Is not there in the beginning?

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: So if there is dehantara-prapti, then where is your so-called nationalism, socialism? They do not understand. Suppose if you are Indian today and dehantara-prapti, you become something else, then where is your nationalism? Boliye. For twenty years or, say, fifty years nationalism... When you become young man, thirty-forty years, then you begin. Suppose you live for hundred years. So fifty years' nationalism. Then if by chance you become a dog? (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) ...vasudeva-kuá¹­umbakam...

Prabhupada: Vasudeva-kuá¹­umbakam all right because Krsna says,

sarva-yonisu kaunteya
murtayaḥ; sambhavanti yaḥ;
tasam brahma mahad-yonir
aham bija-pradaḥ; pita
[Bg. 14.4]

If you understand Krsna, then kuṭumbakam. If you don't understand your father, where is kuṭumbaka? (Hindi) Kitna (Hindi) ...foolish idea. You do not recognize the father, and crying for brother. If you understand Krsna, then vasudeva-kuṭumbakam. If you do not understand, it is foolishness. Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. If you can understand your position as part and parcel of Krsna, Param Brahma... Krsna... Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Everything in the Bhagavad-gita... If you understand that "I am part and parcel of Param Brahma. Aham brahmasmi. I am also Brahman," that is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Prasannatma na socati..., samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu. Then you can claim this vasudeva... If you do not understand Krsna, it is all nonsense, simply slogan. Where is kuṭumbaka? Then where is nationalism? I have gone to preach in the foreign countries—really on kuṭumbakam, not that "I am Indian. He is American. He is Englishman." Then there is no question of kuṭumbakam. And people are fighting on this plane. This vasudeva-kuṭumbakam... Then why you asked the Englishmen to go away, quit India? What do you say?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mr. Dwivedi: Narrow nationalism.

Prabhupada: If you... If you think kuṭumbakam. Suppose some kuṭumba has come to your house. You ask him, "Go out"? This is our system. Grhe satrum api praptam. This is Indian culture. When you receive somebody at your home, even if he's your enemy-grhe satrum api praptam—you should treat with him in such a way that he'll forget that he's your enemy. Visvastam akutobhayam. That was India's culture. Bhima went to Jarasandha to fight. Whole day it was fight. It was ksatriya's fight. Unless one is dead, the fight will continue. So Bhima and Jarasandha were equally powerful, so no decision. But still, he was guest at Jarasandha's house. At night they were eating together, talking together. This is India's culture. They forgot. Arjuna went to see in the battlefield to Duryodhana. And Duryodhana immediately said, "Come here, my brother. You have come. What do you want? How can I help you? You want your kingdom without fight? I can give you." He said, "No, no, that is not my business." This is ksatriya. He... He thought that "He has come to beg." "No, no, that already... That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is ksatriya. But when he's at my place, I offer, "All right, if you want without fight, you can take." This is... They... This is India's culture. Ei sab mahabharata hai, "History of Greater India." (Hindi) Apkara Gandhiji (Hindi) fiction hai.

Mr. Dwivedi: Gandhi thought that the Mahabharata is within.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: "The Ramayana is within." That's what he says.

Prabhupada: And therefore... Therefore...

Mr. Dwivedi: He said, "Rama, nobody accepts..."

Prabhupada: ...Krsna... Krsna gave him within—bullet. Yes. "Your nonviolence is within. You take it within. Take this bullet." Such wrong theory. These are wrong theories. "You want to establish nonviolence, and the violence is within. Take it." So don't theorize. Yaḥ; sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karataḥ;, na siddhim sa avapnoti [Bg. 16.23]. This is Gita's word. If you do not follow the sastra—you manufacture ideas—you'll never get success, na siddhim sa avapnoti na sukham, no happiness, and what to speak of param gatim? (Hindi) Tasmat sastra-vidhanoktam karyakarya... What is that verse? Real guidance, sastra, and Krsna is speaking. Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is very easy. But we have given up all these things. (Hindi) So you have to give up this. Otherwise there is no hope. [break] And to become Krsna conscious, it is not at all difficult. Very simple thing. Otherwise how they have become? Ten years before, they did not know who is Krsna. So how they have become Krsna conscious? And our position is that even a person like Gandhi, he could not become Krsna conscious in hundred years. Because the wrong way. And they have become within ten years fully Krsna conscious. Now ask him that "Go back to your Christian." Will they go? They have been kidnapped. They have been forced. In so many ways they have been harassed. No. In America it was going on. Their fathers... From parents' side they have been kidnapped, detoured by force that "You eat it, the mamsa. You eat." What is that girl who was kidnapped and she came to temple and married?

Tamala Krsna: That girl in Los Angeles?

Prabhupada: No, in New York.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, Murti-vandya. Murti-vandya.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Now, how they have become Krsna conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that, because we are pushing Krsna ... We are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. This is Krsna consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Krsna consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gita? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave's asrama. And there is no Krsna, and he is writing Bhagavad-gita pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi's asrama, Wardha(?), the Gandhi's lantern is being worshiped. And where is Krsna? So the Bhagavad-gita's instruction is mam ekam saranam vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi's lantern. You had been with me?

Tamala Krsna: No, but I've seen it.

Prabhupada: You know, that so...

Tamala Krsna: Neither many people come there.

Karttikeya: Sevagram.

Prabhupada: Nobody.

Tamala Krsna: Krsna temples are still full.

Prabhupada: And it is very nice place. How it could be developed as a Krsna conscious center... But they have given up this idea. From externally... Now Vinoba Bhave is preaching Bhagavad-gita pravacana how many years?

Mr. Dwivedi: Nearly forty-fifty years.

Prabhupada: Fifty years. So what he has done? And within ten years what I have done?

Mr. Dwivedi: He has also put Gita with politics.

Prabhupada: Can I not say like that?

Mr. Dwivedi: You are... What you preach is unadulterated Gita. He mixes it with politics.

Prabhupada: That is my point.

Mr. Dwivedi: You put one principle,

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam evaisyasi kaunteya...
[Bg. 18.65]

Prabhupada: So what is beneficial, to preach Bhagavad-gita as it is or adulterate it? Which is good? That is my point. Why should you talk of Bhagavad-gita, adulterate? What is the benefit? And Krsna says, nasṭaḥ;. (aside:) Bring Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, sa kaleneha mahata yogo nasṭaḥ; parantapa. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo... [Bg. 4.2]. You know that. Find out.

Tamala Krsna: Fourth Chapter.

Prabhupada: How to understand Bhagavad-gita? By the parampara. Sa kaleneha yogo nasṭaḥ; parantapa. (Hindi) The parampara-sutra says that... (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: Third Chapter...

Tamala Krsna: Fourth Chapter.

evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduḥ;
sa kaleneha mahata
yogo nasṭaḥ; parantapa
[Bg. 4.2]

Prabhupada: (Hindi) So what you will gain from nasá¹­a, bhrasá¹­a? (Hindi) We shall give pure. Then you see how your country becomes happy. That is real daya. (Hindi) Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. (Hindi)

bhaktim udasya te vibhoḥ; klisyanti
hi kevala-bodha-labdhaye
tesam klesala eva avasisyate
nanyat yatha sthulam tusavaghaá¹­á¹­ainam

Bhagavad-gita is for bhakti. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam hy etad uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "I am speaking to you..." When Krsna spoke to Arjuna Bhagavad-gita to understand, he was not a vedanti. He was not even a brahmana. He was not a sannyasi. So why he was selected? Bhakto 'si. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Without becoming krsna-bhakta, what one will understand Bhagavad-gita? A politician cannot understand. His motive is different. He cannot understand. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji... Bhakta... How to become bhakta? Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Krsna says, "By bhakti one can understand." He never said, "By jñana, karma, yoga..." No. Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata... [Bg. 6.47]. Eh? What is that? Antar-atmana, sraddhavan bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo... So if you want to organize on that line, then it will be successful. Otherwise it is waste of time. That is real cooperation, that we must accept Bhagavad-gita as it is and preach as it is. Then people will be happy. Otherwise waste of time. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8].

vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ; prayojitaḥ;
janayaty asu vairagyam
jñanam ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]

Now, that is wanted. (Hindi) Those who lead the seva-sanga, they must learn how to do benefit to the people. They must practically assimilate, apply in their practical life, and teach others. Then it will be successful. There is no doubt. And the proof is here. In our foreign countries, they are foreigners. They are practicing different religious systems. Now, why they are taking to Krsna con...? Millions of copies, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, we are selling. Krsna book, how many?

Tamala Krsna: Now about three and a half million copies, thirty-five lakhs copies.

Prabhupada: In Christmas festival they are performing Christmas festival and purchasing our book, Krsna book. Now they have accepted this Hare Krsna movement is three thousand years old or some thousands of...

Karttikeya: Five thousand.

Prabhupada: No, thousands of years.

Karttikeya: No, thousands of years.

Prabhupada: So do something—the people will be benefited, actual. And the whole instruction is there. Then it will be success. Otherwise... Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jñana vicetasaḥ; [Bg. 9.12]. Find out this verse. Moghasaḥ;. (Hindi)

Tamala Krsna: Moghasa jñanam.

Prabhupada: Hm. (Hindi)

Tamala Krsna:

moghasa mogha-karmano
mogha-jñana vicetasaḥ;
raksasim asurim caiva
prakrtim mohinim sritaḥ;
[Bg. 9.12]

Prabhupada: That's all. Raksasa. (Hindi) Learn the art, how to kill Krsna and read Bhagavad-gita. (Hindi) Moghasaḥ;, finished. (Hindi) Mogha-karmanaḥ;. (Hindi) Mogha-jñanaḥ;. Vicetasaḥ;. Why? Raksasa. (Hindi) Whether you are prepared to cooperate with me on this line? Are you ready?

Mr. Dwivedi: We also believe in unadulterated Gita, (laughs) unadulterated Gita.

Prabhupada: This is the line of action. (Hindi) Mam evaisyasi asamsayaḥ; [Bg. 18.65]. Asamsaya. (Hindi) Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6].

mam upetya punar janma
duḥ;khalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanaḥ;
samsiddhim paramam gataḥ;
[Bg. 8.15]

This is samsiddhi. If you want so—that is another thing—that, your samsiddhi, then you have to accept Bhagavad-gita as it is. Samyak siddhi, sampurna siddhi, samyak, samsiddhi. Find out this verse.

mam upetya punar janma
duḥ;khalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanaḥ;
samsiddhim paramam gataḥ;
[Bg. 8.15]

(Hindi) So we have to give up this showbottle, that "I am a scholar of Bhagavad-gita. I am so..."

Tamala Krsna:

mam upetya punar janma
duḥ;khalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanaḥ;
samsiddhim paramam gataḥ;
[Bg. 8.15]

Prabhupada: (Hindi) This is the definition of mahatma, not that I create mahatma. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritaḥ;, bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ; [Bg. 9.13]. (Hindi) This is mahatma.

bahunam janmanam ante
jñanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti
sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ;
[Bg. 7.19]

That is mahatma. Sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ;. Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. The Mahatma Gandhi... (Hindi) Sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ;. (Hindi) If you read Bhagavad-gita, you must read properly, act properly. Then you'll get the benefit. If you manufacture your ideas-useless waste of time. (Hindi) Whether they'll tolerate? Boliye.

Mr. Dwivedi: Hm?

Prabhupada: Whether they'll be able to digest?

Tamala Krsna: Bitter. Bitter medicine.

Prabhupada: Bitter pill.

Mr. Dwivedi: I think there is greater room for digestion of unadulterated Gita than for adulterated.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Mr. Dwivedi: And automatically, I do not know why, but I think they will believe it.

Prabhupada: No, they will not take it.

Mr. Dwivedi: They are... Already they are in a mood of...

Prabhupada: No, that...

Mr. Dwivedi: ...without much effort on anybody's part. I do not know why, whether it...

Prabhupada: No, that is everywhere. That is everywhere. Everywhere every Indian is Krsna conscious. By force we are making them otherwise. That is going on.

Mr. Dwivedi: So whatever... Atomic forces or whatever forces of saints like you, but they take it... There will be that air, that something is automatically coming up.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) If you agree to cooperate with me, you'll see immediately. Because I want to deliver the real thing, therefore in my feeble health I am prepared to go. If one man can understand, that I want to see. I am traveling all over the world to see that at least one man may understand. They have spoiled the whole situation by misinterpreting, by malinterpreting, and by bringing some rascal and pose as leader. The whole world is spoiled. If you want to preach some rascal philosophy, you do. Why you take Bhagavad-gita? That is cheating.

Mr. Dwivedi: If we can preach something genuine... This life is so small. What...? Why...? Why should we be after something which is adulterated? Why not preach genuine, if at all we preach?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: And for what purpose? Life itself is too short. For what purpose?

Prabhupada: (Hindi) "I preach something nonsense, and I take Bhagavad-gita." Why? Why you take Bhagavad-gita? You... There are so many rascal philosophers. You also preach your own philosophy. Why do you take Bhagavad-gita? And where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gita?

Indian man: This, I think, they will be very active to know, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes. Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gita, in politics?

Karttikeya: Nowhere.

Prabhupada: No. Even that incidence I told you, the, Duryodhana said, "You have come to, for kingdom? Yes, you can take." So he said, "No, no, no. That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is ksatriya. "Oh, Duryodhana, you are so gentleman. Let us settle up. No, no, no." "No! That will be settled in the battlefield." This is Bhagavad-gita. (Hindi) "No, we have come to the battlefield. We must decide by fighting." This is ksatriya. Catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. (Hindi) This is teaching of Bhagavad-gita. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. Then where this is nonviolence come in the Bhagavad-gita? Apalayanam. (Hindi) "Come on. Fight. You have no weapon? Take from me." This is ksatriya. What is the definition?

Tamala Krsna: Ksatriya?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna:

sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.43]

Prabhupada: Hm? Sauryam...?

Tamala Krsna: "Sauryam-heroism; tejaḥ;-power; dhrtiḥ;-determination; daksyam-resourcefulness; yuddhe capy apalayanam—that he does not flee in the battlefield; danam-generosity; isvara-leadership." Those are the qualities.

Mr. Dwivedi: Somewhere Mahabharata or somewhere, Arjuna said, pratyaiva na denam napy apalayanam(?).

Prabhupada: (aside:) Get light on that. (Hindi) There was how many applications for five hundred posts?

Karttikeya: These fifty application... Fifty posts and five thousand applications, twenty-five thousand applications.

Prabhupada: No, no. There were some thousands applications. In education. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Then sudra-karma. Paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. (Hindi) So strictly if you follow Bhagavad-gita as it is, oh, then there will be heaven, everything. (Hindi) Kitna time waste... (Hindi) Jñanam vijñanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. (Hindi) ...simple life... (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) This I've seen that in our day it has been found first-class antiseptic. (Hindi) Particularly when we have got typhus and that sort of sicknesses in the home, it is the ground gobar that the house is cleaned and...

Prabhupada: (Hindi) This is very dangerous civilization. If you want to save them from this dangerous civilization, you must push on Krsna consciousness. Otherwise there is no other way. (Hindi) Dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhira. (Hindi) Yato mata tato patha. (Hindi) Secular state. (Hindi) [break] (Hindi) Prayascitta-vimarsanam. (Hindi) Do you think they'll do?

Mr. Dwivedi: No, I don't.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) But

kecit kevalaya bhaktya
vasudeva-parayanaḥ;
agham dhunvanti karstnyena
niharam iva bhaskaraḥ;
[SB 6.1.15]

Niharam iva bhaskaraḥ;. Nihara... (Hindi) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) That is this Krsna consciousness.

mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi... [Bg. 18.55], tato mam tattvato jñatva visate tad-anantaram. (Hindi) So if you want, you can come also.

Karttikeya: No, I'll talk to Tamala Krsna. When are you going?

Tamala Krsna: Well, we're going to go tomorrow to book the tickets. We'll be going...

Karttikeya: After 6th.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, on the... We'll be leaving on the 6th.

Prabhupada: Wait next day.

Tamala Krsna: No, well, we want to leave, I guess...

Prabhupada: Ah, Friday.

Tamala Krsna: Friday.

Karttikeya: You can take my ticket.

Tamala Krsna: We should get a ticket for you? Okay. Fine.

Karttikeya: It's a good opportunity for me to cure also.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, yeah?

Karttikeya: We are going to this Ananda(?) near Ahmedabad for five days near Srila Prabhupada. That was a very good reception there. So we can have the same type of... And we can see also with that, they have a good land and everything.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Nature hai; you cannot change it. (Hindi) Prakrteḥ; kriyamanani gunaiḥ; karmani [Bg. 3.27]. You cannot stop it. Yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. (Hindi)

urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
madhye tisṭhanti rajasaḥ;
jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
adho gacchanti tamasaḥ;
[Bg. 14.18]

(Hindi) You cannot check the activities of material nature. That is not possible. (Hindi) They do not know what the, how nature's law is working. And we are completely under the nature's law.

daivi hy esa gunamayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]

(Hindi) We have got Hindi also. (Hindi) You are all young men. Do you think what I am speaking is right or wrong?

Mr. Dwivedi: Right.

Indian man (2): Right.

Prabhupada: Right? Thank you.

Mr. Dwivedi: When you told him yesterday, so he was interested to come today.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Mr. Dwivedi: In Gita he was interested.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Indian man (2): In Gita I am...

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sva-viḍ-varaha-usṭra-kharaiḥ; samstutaḥ; purusaḥ; pasuḥ;. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. (Hindi)

Mr. Dwivedi: But now everybody has become a sudra.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) (more Hindi conversation) So give him photograph, my photograph. Bring some photograph.

Mr. Dwivedi: All right. (Hindi) There are tentative date... (Hindi) So that can be fixed, that Your Holiness will be reaching there about the 6th.

Prabhupada: Yes. That letter...

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) In that letter, whatever changes you want to make, make changes. Kindly put the date 6th, that His Grace should be reaching Gwalior on the 6th.

Prabhupada: Do... Otherwise call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: Or Pauri otherwise, Pauri on the 7th.

Prabhupada: Call him.

Mr. Dwivedi: Pauri on the 7th, morning.

Prabhupada: That's all right. (Hindi) So that letter...

Tamala Krsna: Is it required to give letter like that, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: I mean...

Prabhupada: And...

Tamala Krsna: That letter is... It's required to give him a letter like that?

Prabhupada: If he wants, give him a tentative date.

Mr. Dwivedi: You kindly give me one or two photographs.

Tamala Krsna: I don't have any photographs like that.

Mr. Dwivedi: You don't have.

Tamala Krsna: But you can get them. I can tell you the person to see who may have them, Amogha-lila. I can give you his name.

Prabhupada: So ask him, Amogha-lila. Why he shall go?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I... We have no photos.

Prabhupada: No, no, you have no; Amogha-lila has got.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

Prabhupada: So bring some. Give him.

Mr. Dwivedi: And then you arrange for that date, that His Grace will be reaching Pauri on the 7th.

Prabhupada: Tentative date.

Tamala Krsna: So when do you want the letter? Immediately? You want the letter immediately?

Mr. Dwivedi: Yes. Yes, you see, because I am leaving tomorrow. Before I go, I meet some press people. I will show them this letter. I say...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: ...on that basis, they'll begin to spread that news.

Prabhupada: (chants japa) If actually government follows Bhagavad-gita, then they should stop this cow slaughter immediately. Go-raksya. If you want to eat meat, there are so many other animals. But don't touch cow. What is this? Ten thousand cows are being killed every day. And you are preaching nonviolence. (chants japa)

Mr. Dwivedi: Then I may take that letter from Your Holi...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: No, you are welcome always.

Mr. Dwivedi: (Hindi) ...you have got to do.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) (chants japa) Jaya. Pranair arthair dhiya vaca. Gopinatha?

Upendra: Yes, Prabhupada. (end)