Room Conversation
Bombay
8 Jan

Prabhupada: There is chance of being accepted all over the world. There is now opposition, and some of the politicians, they're of opinion that "This culture, Hare Krsna movement, is spreading like epidemic, and if we do not check, in ten years time they'll take the government."

Guest (1) (Indian man): Of America.

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) That there is possibility because these young men, they are taking. So everywhere revolution takes place by young men. So if it is actually spreading like epidemic, and young men, they are taking part, so within ten years it is not impossible.

Guest (1): It's a very good idea, then, to follow it. I'm quite serious.

Prabhupada: And they are democratic. It can pull down even a President like Nixon. So if they like, if the majority becomes Krsna conscious, they can make Krsna conscious government. There is no, I mean to say, wonder in it. So anyway, because these youngsters in the Western countries, both in Europe and America, are taking... And the recent telegram we have received... Just see how many books we have sold. (aside:) Make it little less.

Guest (2) (Indian man): (reading telegram) "Dear Srila Prabhupada, please accept our humble obeisances. Here are the sankirtana marathon results for all of ISKCON worldwide for the week of December 17th to 24th."

Prabhupada: One week's report.

Guest (2): Yes. And that, too, before Christmas. "One lakh 17,644 big books, 90,777 medium books, 63,322 small books, 4 lakh 37,420 BTG..."

Guest (1): Back to Godhead magazine.

Giriraja: That's our magazine.

Guest (2): Right."And 7 lakh 9,686 total." This has come from...

Guest (1): Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: Our headquarters.

Trivikrama: One week.

Guest (2): New York. This is from New York.

Guest (1): It's coming from New York, but it's the same for all over America.

Prabhupada: All over the world.

Guest (2): "We offer our sincere congratulations. It is, of course, the hand of Krsna."

Prabhupada: Seventeen lakhs copies of our literature sold in one week.

Guest (1): What is the daily income here? They would be interested to know the daily income for their own selves, daily income for the book sales.

Prabhupada: Oh, book sale? Five to six lakhs. Now, you can just imagine from the sales.

Guest (1): And how many people it must be going. This magazine is hardly one dollar. In America one rupee. (Hindi?) ...magazine for them.

Prabhupada: So this is documentary. And the Europeans and..., they are not fools and rascals that they are interested in purchasing other religious book, not their Bible. You see? So it has got very great potency. So under the circumstances, we should now make combined effort that it can be pushed on more organizedly. I am doing now alone with the help of these... But no Indians are coming. This is the difficulty.

Guest (2): I think, with all due respect, many Indians are trying to do things in their own religious sect or in their own districts.

Prabhupada: Nobody is doing.

Guest (2): Well, I mean, if you had been to Bharatpur recently, about 5,200 beds were there for netra-yajña, for the eyes operation.

Prabhupada: I know that. That I know. But I am speaking of this culture.

Guest (2): Culture, yes.

Guest (1): That is a difficulty one is giving.(?)

Guest (2): Because in observing karma-phela, somebody's taking care of. In bhakti...

Prabhupada: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gita as it is. In Bhagavad-gita there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured idea. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gita as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad..., janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you'll have eyes, you'll have eye trouble, vyadhi. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. If you accept janma-mrtyu, then between janma-mrtyu there is vyadhi and jara. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. That is solution. That is bigger solution. So we are giving that thing—there will be no more eyes' trouble. The main disease... Suppose one man is diseased, so sometimes he is feeling headache, sometimes eye-ache, sometimes finger-ache, and you are applying some medicine for headache. That is not the solution. The solution is that this man is suffering from this disease. How to cure it? So Bhagavad-gita is meant for that purpose. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. And as soon as you accept body, klesada... Na sadhu manye yato atmano 'yam asann api klesada asa dehaḥ; [SB 5.5.4]. Asann api. This body is not permanent. So because the body is not permanent, the disease also not permanent. So Krsna's advice is tams titiksasva bharata. Matra-sparsas tu kaunteya sitosna-sukha-duḥ;kha-daḥ; [Bg. 2.14]. You make the solution—that is the greatest solution—that how to stop janma-mrtyu. But that they do not know, that this can be stopped. They are simply busy with their temporary problems. And they are taking it as very great. What is great? Suppose if you have got a boil here. Simply by pinprick. (makes blowing sound) Will it cure? There must be surgical operation. Get out the pus. So this movement is for that purpose. It is not for this janma-mrtyu, I mean, temporary jara-vyadhi. That is all right, but Krsna says—if we take Krsna's advice, Bhagavad-gita—that is not problem. If there is little trouble, tams titiksasva bharata. Real problem is that janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Try to stop it. That is intelligence. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is culture; that is education, not to be very much bothered with the temporary. That is not very intelligence. Give them this culture, Krsna consciousness. So we have got this body. So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease. That is go... That will go, going on, janma-mrtyu..., er, matra-sparsas tu kaunteya [Bg. 2.14]. So give relief, and the real relief, how to stop... That is our Vedic civilization, that you should not become father, you should not become mother, if you cannot give protection to your children from the cycle of birth and death. Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat na mocayed yaḥ; samupeta-mrtyum. This is real problem. Real culture is that "This child has come to me, so we shall train him in such a way that no more accepting body." Because as soon as we accept body.... It is very difficult subject matter, of course, to understand, but Bhagavad-gita teaches yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When people forget this problem, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi, Krsna personally comes to teach them that "This is your problem."

Guest (3) (Indian man): Guruji, just now the problem is of starvation.

Prabhupada: Well, starvation... Suppose you are diseased, and if your father does not give you to eat, that is your blessing. Guest (1): And what about...? He will die or...? Or this will go away?

Prabhupada: Why you are complaining? Suppose your father, he gives you everything. But when you are diseased, if he said, "My dear son you cannot eat everything," is that starvation?

Guest (3): But...

Prabhupada: First of all give me answer this. Is that starvation?

Guest (3): No...

Prabhupada: That is cure. This is cure. In the Vedas it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetanam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. God is giving food to the cats and dogs. Nobody is starving. If you are starving, that is your blessing.

Guest (3): But then, Guruji, suppose you see somebody...

Prabhupada: We do not suppose. We get the reference to the sastra. That is our disease. We don't manufacture. We don't manufacture anything. Our point of view is if there is starvation, then we take it: mercy of Krsna. Tat te nukampam su-samiksamano bhuñjana evatma-krtam vipakam [SB 10.14.8]. When we are put into starvation, we take it: blessings of God. We don't complain, that "I did something wrong or there is something wrong, so God has put me into this position. It is His blessing." This is our view.

Guest (2): Guruji, my father mentioned about this very beautiful picture just above your head. He was saying it is one of best pictures he has seen of Krsna and Arjuna. And you indicated that there may be a card or something.

Giriraja: Yes, I have that.

Guest (2): Oh. Very good.

Guest (1): You want big picture? I can give you one.

Prabhupada: No, you have got cards printed?

Guest (1): I have got lot of the big ones. I think big ones you don't have.

Giriraja: He's asking for a card.

Guest (2): I have been asked that he wants to keep it on paper.

Prabhupada: I have given that picture in my Bhagavad-gita in so many languages.

Giriraja: Here we have it in all different languages. This is Chinese.

Guest (2): That I wouldn't be able to read. (laughter)

Giriraja: We're just showing that we are placing the Bhagavad-gita in all languages. This is German. Oh, yes, yes. You're German.

Guest (2): I'm a little bit of that.

Prabhupada: So this starvation point, we take it as blessing. People generally question that "How God is unfavorable to somebody and favorable to...?" That is foolishness. God is good, but that we do not know. Because we are less intelligent, we think that "One man is in starvation; therefore God is not good." That is our fault. We are not good. We do not understand God. But a Vaisnava says, "Oh, it is blessing." And if he takes like that, then the result is mukti-pade sa daya-bhak. His mukti is guaranteed. In any circumstances, if somebody takes God as good, then his mukti is guaranteed. And if he blames God—"Oh, He has put me into starvation"—then he has to suffer. This is the common argument sometimes we meet, "Oh, why God has made somebody so rich and somebody some poor? He is unjust." That is foolishness. God cannot be... He's just, always just. That is God. So unless we have got that firm conviction, then we cannot become devotee.

Guest (1): That is why Indians are not joining then. Because they are not joining because of that; they cannot understand what is the reality. Because we try to comment upon the God's actions, "Somebody's poor, somebody's rich, somebody's this."

Prabhupada: But actually you don't believe in God. That is the disease, godlessness. If we believe in God...

Guest (2): If we fully believe... But there are a large portion of...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. They don't believe in Him. They think that "God is my servant, or order-supplier"—"God, why you have not done this. If you don't do this, I don't want You." This is our position.

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Yes. That means "God is my servant order-supplier." Actually... This is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadananda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield, somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥ;kha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So, but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed.' And God did not bring him back. He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position.

Guest (2): When war was to be declared...

Prabhupada: Ha. There was no consul...

Guest (2): They had found a final solution to the Jewish problem.

Prabhupada: These politicians, they're everything. And when the war is very acute and the husband is going to die, then God is required. When he does sinful activities, God is never consulted, but when he suffers, then God's consulted. "And if You don't supply my order, then I don't want You." Means he remains: "Don't want You." That's all.

Guest (2): Swamiji, may I ask one question which I had much discussion with your sisya here. Brahman, the sort of, what we in Hindu philosophy consider as the ultimate Godhead...

Prabhupada: No.

Guest (2): Brahman you consider Krsna. But He is, of course... He was incarnate. He was one of the avataras.

Prabhupada: That is your opinion. That is not...

Guest (2): That is our point which I want to clarify.

Prabhupada: You have to take the sastra, authority. Brahmano aham pratisá¹­ha. Read Bhagavad-gita. You read Bhagavad-gita? Now, did you not read this?

Guest (2): Well, that's what I want to clarify.

Prabhupada: Find out this.

Trivikrama: 14.27.

Prabhupada: Read that.

Guest (2): I am... This, even on the Eighth Chapter you'll find.

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmano 'ham pratisá¹­ha. Read. Just here.

Giriraja:

brahmano hi pratisá¹­haham
amrtasyavyayasya ca
sasvatasya ca dharmasya
sukhasyaikantikasya ca
[Bg. 14.27]

Prabhupada: So He is the pratisṭha. Just like in this room there is illumination. The illumination is spread all over the room. (Hindi—"Please hear") So the illumination is important or the light is important? What is important?

Guest (2): The original light. Source of the light. Isn't Brahman the source of the light?

Prabhupada: No, first of all try to understand. Just like the sunshine. The sunshine is important or the sun is important?

Guest (2): The original sun.

Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, this impersonal Brahman illumination or effulgence, that is the bodily rays of Krsna. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-aná¸a-koá¹­i [Bs. 5.40]. So ultimately Krsna is important, not this impersonal Brahman illumination. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. You see practical example and learn here in the sastra. You'll understand Krsna is the origin. Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], personally says. Mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate. So Brahman also pravartate. But if you don't believe Krsna and sastra, that is different thing. Then you cannot be convinced. Sastra-caksusat. Your eyes should be through the sastra, not by manufacturing ideas. So sastras says this.

yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-aná¸a-koá¹­i-
koá¹­isv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam
tad brahma niskalam anantam asesa-bhutam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.40]

This is sastra, Brahma-samhita, that "This brahmajyoti is the bodily rays of Krsna. Govinda." So the rays of Govinda is not so important as Govinda is important. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. And Govinda personally says, aham sarvasya... Sarvasya means everything, including Brahman.

Guest (2): With all due respect, I was talking of Brahman.

Prabhupada: I am speaking of Brahman. Brahman means this brahmajyoti. You mean that. Yes, I am speaking that. This brahmajyoti...

Guest (2): Isvara is different from Brahman?

Prabhupada: Isvara everyone. But isvara parama is Krsna.

Guest (1): Paramesvara.

Prabhupada: Paramesvara. There is two words. One is isvara; one is paramesvara. You may be isvara. You may be isvara in your business. So many workers are working under you, and you are ordering, you are regulating, but you are not paramesvara. Similarly, you take each and every one, up to Brahma. They may be isvara, but he's not a paramesvara. Paramesvara is one. Mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. That is Krsna.

Guest (2): Then the last question. Rama, how do you relate?

Prabhupada: Rama means Krsna, the same. Ramadi-murtisu kala niyamena tisá¹­han [Bs. 5.39]. Krsna is always existing with His different incarnation, expansions, ramadi-murti-Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha.... There are hundreds and thousands of expansions. Advaita acyuta anadi ananta-rupam. So Rama is expansion of Krsna. He's God. There is no difference between Rama and Krsna. Just like one candle, and if you light another candle, another candle, so one may be the first, second, third, like that, but in candle power they are all the same; similarly, Rama is expansion of Krsna. That does not mean Rama is less than Krsna. Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha. There are many.

Guest (1): That is what Hare Krsna mantra is, Krsna and Rama both.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): But the translation of the word Hare in...

Prabhupada: Hara.

Guest (2): Hara, in English...

Prabhupada: Original hara. Just like lata. The lata, when you address lata, it is late. Similarly, when you address hara, the sambodhana is hare. Hare Krsna.

Guest (2): Sambodhana is to remove the evil, remove the bad part isn't it?

Prabhupada: No, no. Where is bad? There is no bad.

Guest (2): Hare Krsna means what? "Brahman, please remove from me the... " Isn't it?

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Why? It is addressing.

Guest (2): Only addressing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Addressing means with some purpose when I address Mr. such and such. Then if you say, "Yes, what do you want to say?"

Guest (2): It has no relation with the...

Prabhupada: Relation is there. Relation is there. Otherwise, how can I address him? Relation is there. So this form Hare, means Hara, is the potency of Hari. [break] Just like you are a grhastha. You have got your wife, you have got your maidservant. The maidservant is doing something, wife is doing something, but you have many potencies. The managing director is there, but he has got many assistants. Similarly, the Supreme Person has got multi-assistants, potencies. So they are all accepted as Hara, Hari's potencies. So we have to approach Hari through the potency: "O Hare. O the potency of the Lord. O Lord, be merciful." We cannot jump over the Lord without going through the potency. So those who are impersonalists, they cannot understand. But those who are intelligent, they can understand that God is person, He has got multi-potencies, and through the potencies He's working so nicely. This is Vedic injunction. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jñana-bala-kriya ca [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport].

na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate
na tat samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate
parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate
svabhaviki jñana-bala-kriya ca

God has nothing to do personally. As we see a very big rich man, he hasn't got to do anything personally, but he has got so many assistants. They're doing everything. Similarly, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. But when the things are done, svabhaviki jñana-bala-kriya. The knowledge is so perfect and things are done so nicely that it is automatically being done. And the rascals who cannot see behind there is God, they simply see this nature: "The nature is working automatically." It is not the fact. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita: mayadhyaksena prakrti suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. There is adhyaksana. Yasyajñaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakro. Even the sun planet, such big illuminative, powerful, it is also rotating by the order of God. So similarly, we are addressing the potencies of the Lord. We cannot jump over God, because potencies are so important. They are actually helping hand to God. So if they are pleased, then God will be pleased automatically. Why we address, "Hara"? "Hare Krsna." The Krsna's potency, Radharani; Rama's potency, Sita... Therefore, first of all, Sita-Rama; Hare Krsna; Radha-Krsna; Laksmi-Narayana. We address the first, potency. So if I request your wife, "Mother, give me this help," and if she gives that "This man is very nice," you cannot refuse. You cannot refuse. So this is the process, the appealing to the potency of Krsna, "So now I am so much harassed. Kindly lift me and engage me in Your service. Hare Krsna." This is Hare Krsna. "I have served so many life the dictation of my senses, kamadi." Katidha na katidha palita durni desaḥ;: "My lusty desires, my senses, they have dictated me in so many ways which I should not have carried. Still, I have done it." Kamadinam katidha na katidha palita durnidesaḥ;. Nidesaḥ;. You are my master. You are asking, "Bring me a glass of water." That's very nice. But sometimes you may say, "You go to that person and speak this lie." I don't want to speak lie, but because I am your servant, I have to do that. Otherwise, my service will be cancelled. So similarly, kamadinam katidha na katidha palita durnidesaḥ;. Nidesaḥ; is all right, but durni desaḥ;. So we are doing this life after life, dictated by the senses, which we should not have done. But we have done it. Kamadinam katidha na katidha palita durni desaḥ;. So "All right, you have satisfied your master." No, no. That is also not the fact. Tesam karuna na jata na trapa: "They are neither satisfied, neither they are kind upon me that 'This man has done so much. Now don't order him.' " Tesam na karuna jata na trapa. "Then what you do...?" "Now I have rejected him. I have come to Hare Krsna-'Please engage me in Your service.' That is my life. I have done all this nonsense life after life. They are not satisfied. So therefore my business is to serve. 'I have come to You. Please accept me.' " That is Hare Krsna. Because "I have to serve. I have no other business. So I have served these rascals, but they are not satisfied." Na trapa nopasanti. "So why shall I do this business anymore? Yes. You are asking sarva-dharman parityajya mam [Bg. 18.66]. I do that. That's all."

Guest (3) (Indian man): With guru-krpa it can be revealed.

Prabhupada: Yes, you cannot have krsna-krpa directly. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. That is Caitanya. You have to go through guru.

Guest (4) (Indian man): And how do we get guru?

Guest (1): Guru finds you.

Prabhupada: Not guru finds you. You have to find out guru. Guru is there. Guru is there. But if you want to be cheated, then you find out. And if you want to be cheated, the cheaters will... Guru-krsna-krpa. If you are actually serious to serve Krsna, Hare Krsna, then Krsna will give you: "Here is guru." Guru is there. Guru is there, but unless you are actually serious, you cannot get real guru. If you want to be cheated or if you are a cheater, then you'll get a cheater guru. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Give prasada. Bring prasada. Now we go to guru for some medical help. We go to guru for some economic development. So you'll get cheater. That's all.

Guest (1): But how to engage these people who are desirous who have desire of serving Krsna in Bombay? If you are talking about a farm and other things...

Prabhupada: Then why we have constructed this?

Guest (1): No, here people will not come because the people are not going business or anything, but people him, people like him, people like this, how they can engage...

Prabhupada: They can come at least weekend and learn. There are so many books.

Guest (2): We have our own... We have to find out.

Guest (4): We have to find our own ways to come here.

Prabhupada: Guru is there. Krsna. Why don't you find? Why you are blind? Krsna says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya [Bg. 4.8]. He has come. Why don't you take Him? Why do you go to a cheater? Because you want to be cheated. Guru is there. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7], Arjuna said. Why don't you surrender to Krsna? That means I don't want guru. I want somebody, my order supplier. So how you can be... Because you want to be cheated, you'll get cheater. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajami [Bg. 4.11]. Why don't you accept Krsna as guru? What is the difficulty? Is there anybody greater than Krsna? Do you think like that? What is your idea?

Guest (2): He is the ultimate. There's nothing more.

Prabhupada: He is the supreme guru. Mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. He's the supreme person. So why don't you accept Him as guru? That means you do not want. Then you must be cheated. If gold is available in a gold shop, purchase there. Why do you go to a pan-wala to purchase gold? Will you not be cheated? You do not know where to purchase gold, and still you are..., "Where is guru?" Go there, where gold is sold. And if you do not know even there, then you must be cheated. You do not know where is gold is available. Unfortunately you go to a pan-wala: "Have you got gold?" He'll give you some gold leaf, that's all: "Here is gold." The real thing is that guru is there, Krsna is there. And we are presenting. We are not manufacturing. I do not say that I am guru. Our business is to present what Krsna has said. That's all. Therefore I'm guru. Guru is he who speaks Krsna's word. That is guru. And if he manufactures, then he is a cheater.

Guest (1): This is the test of guru.

Prabhupada: This is the test. Guru... The supreme guru is Krsna, and anyone canvasses for Krsna, he is guru, guru's represent... Guru-krsna-krpaya paya. That guru will never say that "Krsna is dead and gone. I am now guru. I am Krsna. I am avatara." That is rascaldom. So if you want such rascal, then you'll be cheated. (aside:) Who is bringing prasada? Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Everything is there. Read Bhagavad-gita very carefully. Don't misinterpret. That has killed our culture. They do not know what is Bhagavad-gita, and they stand: "I am a student of Bhagavad-gita." This is going on. Even recently I had been in Gandhi's asrama. It is a desert. He was student of Bhagavad-gita. Yes. Vinobhaji also never teaches Krsna, but he's a Gita-pravacana. What Gita-pravacana without Krsna? Everyone is doing that, Bhagavad-gita without Krsna. What is that Bhagavad-gita?

Guest (2): A glass without water.

Prabhupada: If big, big men do like that, then what the followers will do? Yad yad acarati sresṭhas lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. This is the position of our country, that everyone has misguided in the name of leadership, and people are in bewilderment—"What to do?"

Guest (2): But different... I mean... It was predicted that this may happen.

Prabhupada: What?

Guest (2): There would be Kali-yuga. Then there will be Satya-yuga after. Is it not so, predicted?

Prabhupada: I don't think. That is stated, what you are saying, that in Kali-yuga people will be so fallen. Mandaḥ; sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya [SB 1.1.10]. They are mandaḥ;, bad, or very slow. Mandaḥ;. And they have got their own manufactured ideas, sumanda-matayo. Not only mandaḥ;, but they have got their own manufactured idea. And manda-bhagya, unfortunate. And upadrutaḥ;. The first thing, three things, upadrava, disturbances... One disturbance is there will be no rainfall, and therefore there will be scarcity of food, and government will tax like anything. People will be so harassed that they will leave their hearth and home and go to the forest. this is awaiting in the Kali-yuga. But if you take to this Krsna consciousness movement, you'll be saved.

kaler dosa-nidhe rajann
asti hy eko mahan gunaḥ;
kirtanad eva krsnasya
mukta-sangaḥ; param vrajet
[SB 12.3.51]

He'll have nothing to do with this. If you take this vaccine—there may be epidemic-It will not touch you. That is Krsna consciousness. So we are preaching that, "Please take it." One who is fortunate will take it. And one who is manda-bhagya, he'll not take it. What can be done? Our business is to canvass, "Please take it. Please take it." So we will go on like that. People may take it or don't take it. Our business, because we are servants of Krsna... Ya imam mad-bhaktesu. Find out. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ; [Bg. 18.69]. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati. It is paramam guhyam. When Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66], it is not very easily accepted. That is the most confidential part of His instruction. But still, we have to canvass. What is that?

Giriraja:

ya idam paramam guhyam
mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati
bhaktim mayi param krtva
mam evaisyaty asamsayaḥ;
[Bg 18.68]

Prabhupada: Asamsayaḥ;.

Giriraja: Asamsayaḥ;. "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotee, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupada: That's all. So we are trying to do that. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. It will be accepted by the devotees, not the karmi, jñani, yogis, no. Only bhaktas. Therefore mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati. So we have got two functions: first of all we are trying to make them bhakta, and then convincing him about this philosophy. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;. Without being bhakta, nobody will understand what is yoga. The beginning is bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam ekam uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "Because, Arjuna, you are My bhakta, I'll explain to you. Otherwise it is lost." So without being a bhakta, nobody can understand Bhagavad-gita. However he may say that "I am very staunch devotee. I am reader of...," he will misunderstand. So here Krsna clearly says that "This is the most confidential knowledge. And without being bhakta, nobody will be able to understand." So the preacher has got two different businesses. One side, he has to make bhakta. The persons will... Because without being bhakta, he cannot understand. Then he teaches. So these two businesses going on in our Krsna consciousness movement. To become bhakta there is Deity—"Come here. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;: Just think of Me: Just man-mana. And become a devotee." And naturally, if he comes to the temple, he'll offer some obeisances, he'll offer some flower, some fruit. Mad-yaji. Even a child will offer namaskara. In this way he becomes devotee. And then he understands. So we have got two functions. All over the world, whey we are opening these centers? Bhakto 'si—to make them bhakta. And they have become bhakta. And then you speak something about Krsna. He'll learn it. So that is explained here, ya idam paramam... Who will surrender? "Huh! I shall go to surrender to Krsna. I shall surrender to my senses." Surrender he has to. He's not independent. But ahankara-vimuá¸hatma. Because he's rascal by ahankara, false ego, he does not accept Krsna—"Huh! Why shall I accept Krsna?" He will accept maya. And the maya, by pulling by the ear—"Come here. Sit down"—that I shall accept. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam... And that... But stop that force. That he does not do. "Better let maya pull me by the ear, and whatever she likes, I shall do." But he'll not like to carry out the order of Krsna. Therefore it is very confidential knowledge, to surrender to Krsna. So anyone who tries for this business... That is Krsna's desire, that "Try to make these rascals a devotee and convince him about the importance of Bhagavad-gita." If you do this thing, ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68], then? What is next line?

Giriraja: The next verse? Bhaktim mayi param krtva...

Prabhupada: Ah. Mam evaisyasi. "He becomes pure devotee, and he comes back to Me." Mam evaisyasi asamsayaḥ; [Bg. 18.65]. That is the solution: go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam [Bg. 15.6]. That is the mission of human life. For that purpose we have to do everything. How to go back to home, back to Godhead. And that point we are missing. We are engaged in so-called philanthropic work. Real purpose of life we are missing. And this can be done only in this human form of life. The Prahlada Maharaja says,

kaumara acaret prajño
dharman bhagavatan iha
durlabham manusam janma
tad apy adhruvam arthadam
[SB 7.6.1]

Arthardam. Although it is temporary, arthadam. The dog will die, and I will also die. Both of our body is temporary. But I can die understanding the importance of life. The dog cannot. That is the difference. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja advises, kaumara acaret: "From the beginning of life teach dharman bhagavatan." So these are the indications in the sastras. We have to do that if we actually want to do something tangible. And if you manufacture ideas, that we can do, but that will not be very much effective.

Trivikrama: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (Hindi)

Guest (5) (Indian man): I am going tomorrow to Kumbha. Tomorrow night.

Prabhupada: Oh, by plane. Oh.

Guest (5): Train. Howrah Mail, Howrah Express, getting down at Prayaga. And I'll be there to 14th and 15th.

Prabhupada: Oh. So you can go to our camp.

Guest (5): Camp. I am going with Mr. Munshi only. (Hindi) He's already there, and we are going to put up with them only.

Prabhupada: That is far away. It takes, I understand, one and a half hours to come.

Guest (5): It is three miles away, in water, in the river.

Prabhupada: Three miles means one and a half hour? So go one and a half hour and come one and a half hour-three hours.

Guest (5): No, where is our camp then?

Prabhupada: We have got our camp underneath the bridge.

Guest (5): Railway.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (5): I'll talk to Giriraja. I have four, five, or six people with me. Dr. Misi, Durlab Mehta, he's also coming. He life member is there for last two, three years. He's also coming. His wife is coming. Some friends are coming. You'll be coming back when, sir?

Prabhupada: I'm going on the 11th.

Guest (5): 11th. And coming back about 17th?

Prabhupada: Yes, but... Yes.

Guest (5): How is your health?

Prabhupada: Not good.

Guest (5): No, but you are taking that medicine or...?

Prabhupada: I stopped that medicine.

Guest (5): Too much bitter, I think.

Prabhupada: Not only bitter. I got some trouble in the teeth. Pap(?) means suspended.

Guest (5): Pills are taken or not taken?

Prabhupada: Pills? No. If required I shall take again.

Guest (5): If possible, I'll come tomorrow. Otherwise I'll see you when we come back or I'll see you there.

Prabhupada: All right. Hare Krsna.

Trivikrama: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Jaya. (everyone leaves the room... long silence. Knock on the door)

Hamsaduta: Jaya, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Oh! Hare Krsna! Come on. Just now coming?

Hamsaduta: Yes. Just now. We came by truck.

Prabhupada: Oh. So everything is all right?

Hamsaduta: Well, everything is all right. I came because I have to pick up one truck which was... It was in an accident, and it was repaired, so we have to pick that up. So I thought I would come to Bombay and also see Your Divine Grace. I heard you're not feeling well.

Prabhupada: No. So? When you started from there?

Hamsaduta: We started eleven o'clock yesterday, eleven o'clock in the afternoon, and we spent one night in Shalampur, a nice town. We did some kirtana in a Dvarakadhisa temple, very nice temple. And we stayed with the owner of a trucking company. A very nice place. You look so handsome, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: (clears throat) So, how business is going there?

Hamsaduta: Well, there's no money, so not much can be done. The last two days there was no prasadam distribution in the evening, and so the last two days I was there, nobody came. The problem is that since Your Divine Grace left there, the same people would be cooking, these sweeper people. And now they don't want to cook anymore because they work all day, and they say, "We can't work all around the clock, twenty-four hours." So they stopped cooking. And together with no money... So the whole thing has just come to a stalemate. So now another problem is that the sankirtana party which we sent out is also not... It came back yesterday, also not going on properly. I know this causes Your Divine Grace anxiety, but I just think I should speak frankly about how I feel about the situation. I think Mahamsa is a very nice devotee, but he does everything himself. He's always jumping over everything, and before it can be discussed, he's already done it. Just like he flew here. He flew here, and it costs a lot of money to fly from Hyderabad and back. It costs, I think, about five hundred rupees. And there's no need for doing things in that way. So I don't know exactly how to work with Mahamsa. It's not that I fight with him. I just don't know how to work out things so that it comes out in a practical way.

Prabhupada: What is the use of investing money there? I have already given fifty thousand.

Hamsaduta: I mean I talked with Mahamsa also. I talked with him when he came back day before yesterday. Talked with him very frankly and openly. Of course, he always says, "Yes, yes, yes," and then he just does whatever he feels should be done. And Tejas also... Now, Tejas, for example, he started a vegetable garden, and it was going on very nicely, but then everything dried up because all the workers, they work under Mahamsa. They're all accustomed to taking instructions from him. And so the plants were not watered. Mahamsa continually put the water someplace else. So now everything that Tejas has done is frustrated. So he feels, "Why should I be here?" Tejas, I think, has something really to offer. I think he's experienced, but if he's not given a field and some space to exercise his talent, he's going to go away, and I feel, without Tejas... I mean there's no one else I can refer to about these matters. I don't know anything about farming. I don't know planting. But Tejas seems to know. And he speaks Telegu also, and he also is one of our devotees. And I have more faith in Tejas than I would any other person who we might consult. But ultimately Tejas is, I think, more important than anyone else because he is your devotee, and he's very faithful and responsible. And one other thing which Tejas... When he was there, he worked out financial..., what he saw was the actual financial picture of how Mahamsa had been investing money in the past and what kind of result he had been getting on the basis of labor and...

Prabhupada: Now the money which we have transferred, so that is... You are three signatures.

Hamsaduta: We are three signatures, yes.

Prabhupada: So...

Hamsaduta: From that money, nothing has been spent yet except five thousand rupees which went for the first well which was dug, which is not particularly good. They went to a 105 feet, and the well is suitable for about three acres of land. Now, since just this small trip that I made from Hyderabad to Bombay, I can understand the reason that nothing is growing in that part. It's because there's no water. Even if you dig, you don't get much water. That big square well, which is already there right behind the gosala, there is no water in it. It does not fill up. It doesn't fill up. It's not the kind of well you pump out and then it fills up.

Guest (6) (Indian man): I could not go because without discussing this farm in Bombay.

Prabhupada: All right, you take rest.

Hamsaduta: I'm not tired. I can... [break] The signatures were just a... [break]

Guest (6): Prabhu was telling about the Bombay farm now... [break]

Prabhupada: First of all we must attract people, then give them prasada. If you have no power to attract them, then how..., what is the position? Program means men will do. If there is no men, who will do this program?

Giriraja: In that area, in Thana, they drink at night.

Prabhupada: Let them do whatever nonsense they are doing. Let them chant and take prasada. We don't mind what they are doing. That is later on. When I was chanting in Tompkinson Park I never asked them that "Don't come here. You are drinking." Everyone was drinking. (laughs) I know that. Everyone had illicit sex. They were coming with their boyfriend, girlfriend. I didn't know that? Was I going to restrict them from? Let them come, chant Hare Krsna. Caitanya Mahaprabhu stressed on this, mass kirtana every night. He was not speaking philosophy. Philosophy with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭacarya, Prakasananda Sarasvati, not with the mass of people. Mass of people—"Come on! Chant!" Give prasada. This was Caitan... What they will understand, philosophy?

Giriraja: They won't understand.

Prabhupada: Mass of people, let them chant and dance and take prasada. So these centers are being opened for mass movement as well as class movement. In the village there is... Hardly you'll get good, educated men. So there is no question of philosophy. Given them chance of chanting and take prasada. It is useless to talk before them our philosophy. They'll never understand. But they will understand prasadam. Prasadam is so nice. If there are few grains of prasada, even the crows will come, the condemned bird. (laughs) He will also come. You do like this. So if this has been settled, do that.

Hamsaduta: I think Mahamsa would rather manage the farm himself.

Prabhupada: Then... You think... I do not know, but manage somehow or other. I want that prasada distribution must go on. People should come in numbers, increase. Whatever you can produce, spend for that purpose. We are not going to produce foodstuff for our starving... It is for them. When they'll understand, they'll work voluntarily: "Yes, it's for us." We are not capitalists.

Trivikrama: Now there's arati, Srila Prabhupada. [break]

Giriraja: It is a big philosophy, that everything is simply based on following the order of Krsna without any expectation of any gain.

Prabhupada: Then you are success. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. This is success. Krsna says, "Do this."

annad bhavanti bhutani
parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;
yajñad bhavati parjanyo
yajñaḥ; karma-sambudbhavaḥ;
[Bg. 3.14]

Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. We have the statement in the Bhagavad-gita. So we have to do this. It is not fashion. It is the fact, sir. And those who want to become immediately paramahamsa... Paramahamsa does not mean some bogus men. Just like that paramahamsa advised our Bhagatji, "Anyone going out of Vrndavana..." He did not marry for this purpose. You know that letter? Then he stopped. Paramahamsa has gone away. And paramahamsa is looking after woman, a very beautiful woman.

Hari-sauri: Is that why Bhagatji didn't leave Vrndavana? Is that why he didn't want to leave?

Prabhupada: No, no. I don't speak for anyone. But these kinds of paramahamsas are there. They cannot go out of Vrndavana. They are so advanced. But in Vrndavana, if there is a beautiful woman, try to exploit her. Go on. So I wanted to talk with you about that Saurabha, but he's coming on Monday. No? Because Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked the Gosvamis that you develop Vrndavana, so Gosvamis, they did that. But these smoker, bidi smoker paramahamsas, they imitate Rupa Gosvami: "You cannot go." Simply by imitating Gosvamis by a loincloth they have become... [break] Prthivite ache yata naga... All over the world, as many villages and towns are there, preach. But this paramahamsa says, "No, no. I cannot go beyond Vrndavana." Kali's..., Kali-yuga paramahamsa. Practically, if I remained at Radha-Damodara temple becoming a paramahamsa, then how this institution would have come into existence? That is a fact. But we are not doing. If I would have been a great paramahamsa, not leave Vrndavana; I would have been very happy in that room, no botheration. Then how this movement would have been started all over the world?

Hari-sauri: That kind of paramahamsa would have probably been pleased if the movement hadn't started.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are against us. They criticize us, all the gosvamis, the babajis. I have become eyesore.

Hari-sauri: Sore for their eyes.

Prabhupada: Therefore Nitai left. He was instigated that "Your guru is useless. Find out a better guru and remain in bhajana." This rascal left. He talked with (indistinct). Now where he has gone? Nobody knows where is the paramahamsa.

Giriraja: The others are envious.

Prabhupada: Yes, because they're ordinary men. Man's business is to become envious. An ordinary third-class men, there is always envy. Not only first class, but third class. And what to speak of Vaisnava and paramahamsa. Third-class men. And the government is capturing them and giving sterilization because there is record—so many abortions in the American Hospital. The babajis are making pregnant the widows, and they are going for abortion. There are many cases, similar, and there is American Hospital.

Giriraja: In Vrndavana?

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: Not all. But wherefrom they are becoming pregnant?

Hari-sauri: What is the need for any babaji to get sterilized, anyway?

Prabhupada: Not to get... Sterilization, they are being forced. The government understand that who is making them pregnant, these ugly widows. They are not coming from Delhi, government servant. (laughter) Bring them, paramahamsas. When I was coming, so many paramahamsa, they advised me, "Sir, why you are going to foreign country in this old age? You are in Vrndavana. Just go on with your bhajana." The babajis gave me advice. And actually, I was seventy years old.

Giriraja: They don't know Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: No, they don't care for. They say, "Bhagavad-gita is not for us."

Giriraja: They say that?

Prabhupada: Yes, the babajis say. They are for Bhagavata rasa lila. "Bhagavad-gita is for third class or lower class who does not..." They are paramahamsas... They are not... Immediately jump over rasa-lila.

Giriraja: They discriminate this Krsna from that Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. The Vallabha-sampradaya, they say that "Before Krsna was contaminated, in His childhood, we worship that Krsna."

Giriraja: Who said that?

Hari-sauri: Vallabha-sampradaya.

Prabhupada: "Krsna, when He was young, grown-up, He became contaminated by the gopis." Therefore they do not touch that Krsna. When He was below that age, Bal Krsna, He is innocent; He has no desire. They think this is contaminated Krsna, and Bal Krsna is uncontaminated.

Hari-sauri: Then they don't accept Krsna as being the supreme enjoyer.

Giriraja: I met someone who said that.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is their theory: "Krsna is contaminated. In His young age He's contaminated." Now then why... So-called advanced gentlemen say that "We don't want Krsna of Vrndavana. We want Krsna of Kuruksetra." They say that. They don't want Krsna of Vrndavana, dancing with the gopis. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, the great novelist, he had written on Krsna, Krsna-charitra. He has made distinction, that "Krsna of Vrndavana is different from Krsna of Kuruksetra. Krsna of Dvaraka is different." Like that.

Giriraja: Well, if the Vallabhas say that they only like Krsna before He was contaminated, so what is the specialty of Krsna? Everyone is uncontaminated in a young age.

Prabhupada: But do they take Krsna as the Supreme? That is the... This man was saying. So I said, "God is..." You were not present when I was speaking with that...? That "In your estimation, whether God is good or God is bad, He is God. You can think that 'God is not giving the poor man any food; therefore God is bad.' But when you think that, 'Yes, God is good,' then you are devotee." This is going on: "God is good; God is bad; God is contaminated; God is uncontaminated."

Giriraja: But actually they're atheists, or Mayavadis.

Prabhupada: They're ordinary men, third-class men. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati... [Bg. 7.3]. What they'll understand about Krsna, third-class men? Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati. When one is siddha, out of them, one may understand. And how these third-class men will understand Krsna? If they want to remain on the third-class position, they'll never understand Krsna.

Giriraja: Then why do they imitate?

Prabhupada: Some motive behind. Or they may be in the lower position. By serving, gradually they'll come to the real position. But if they do not hear what Krsna said, then just imitates again, same. So if we decide that "Whatever Krsna has said, we have to do it at any risk," that is Krsna consciousness. "Krsna has said. My Guru Maharaja said. We have to do it."

Hari-sauri: I was just reading how Bali Maharaja decided that he would please Lord Visnu at any cost, and he gave everything.

Prabhupada: Therefore mahajana. Bali Maharaja is one of the authorities. In spite of all difficulties, all opposition... His guru is opposition. "No. I shall give Him whatever He wants." Sarvatma-samarpane bali. Bali became perfect by surrendering everything. (someone enters) Hare Krsna. Sit down. Where is Gopala?

Mr. Asnani: He's in office.

Prabhupada: Did you talk with him?

Mr. Asnani: I told him that should I see Prabhupada... I told him I'll come today.

Prabhupada: So call him.

Mr. Asnani: Should I bring him?

Prabhupada: No, he's going. Gopala Krsna.

Mr. Asnani: Yes, I met him.

Prabhupada: The point is that some income tax affair.

Mr. Asnani: No problem. Is it at (indistinct). Have you seen notice?

Giriraja: Which is? About the constitution, exemption? Ah, no. No, it's not a notice as such, but they're questioning whether we deserve the tax exemption as a charitable trust. They're saying that we are not charitable; we are religious. And religious is not exempt from income tax. So the question is whether we have to change our constitution to fit their idea or whether to establish a separate trust or whether to defend that our present...

Prabhupada: First thing is that we have not received any official notice.

Giriraja: No.

Prabhupada: So why you are bothering about that?

Giriraja: That's what I say. We have stood...

Prabhupada: Gopala is bothering too much about...

Mr. Asnani: No, Prabhupada, with your blessings, I know the Assistant Commissioner, and he is number three or four in entire city of Bombay and a very much influential center. He's a courageous man also. He's a sarvaji(?). And if I will place this problem before him as and when it is necessary, he is there to guide us.

Prabhupada: So first of all where is the necessity? I have been talking...

Mr. Asnani: Why create a problem? Today the problem is not before us.

Giriraja: The thing is that the same constitution we've had since the beginning, and we've always got the exemption...

Prabhupada: Yes. And why you are bothering? He's going Delhi?

Giriraja: Even last time the Assistant Commissioner...

Mr. Asnani: Who is there in Delhi, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: This Gopala Krsna.

Mr. Asnani: Ah, let him go.

Prabhupada: But let him go, but I think that why unnecessarily bother?

Mr. Asnani: Today there is no problem for us.

Giriraja: Yes. She's only the Assistant Commissioner. Last time also the Assistant Commissioner was...

Prabhupada: What is the position...

Mr. Asnani: To which one you made, Kapoor?

Giriraja: No, that was Bhave? There's so many Assistant Commissioners.

Mr. Asnani: Yes, there are so many Assistant Inspecting Commissioners. Since we are living in Juhu-our temple is in Juhu-our registered office is at Juhu. So we will come in the jurisdiction of Tirumala (?) Chambers, which is near Naida, which is near...

Giriraja: Yes, I know that.

Mr. Asnani: So he's the head of the department and entire building, that Sarvaji about whom I'm talking to you. Earlier he was at Hykerbol(?) and that is the flow(?) on fourth side, near Churchgate. And, Prabhupada, I may give him... [break]

Prabhupada: It is a superstition that one should not lie down keeping the head on the northern side. So one says that "I have no head at all. So why shall I bother about keeping my head this way or that way?" Similarly, keep no head, so there will be no question of keeping northern side or southern side. That I want. We have no such program. You spend all money. I want that whatever collection is there, you spend. There is no account, and there will be no question of income tax. We are beggars. Whatever money you get, you spend. That's all.

Mr. Asnani: So your books will also show you, ultimately at end of year, expenditure, income, equalized, neutralized.

Prabhupada: Therefore I am insisting: whatever money we have got in the bank, spend it for printing. Keep the books. That's all. I am insisting this point everywhere. You kept that money seven thousand, seven lakhs or what?

Hamsaduta: I was going to spend it. I spent every month, but they came at the end of the month.

Prabhupada: Therefore the botheration came, in Germany. He was waiting for sending the money for food distribution. In the meantime, they created trouble. Anyway, we should be free like that. Spend all money immediately. [break] I say that, that don't keep any more money in the bank. Spend it.

Mr. Asnani: And keep the receipts and vouchers.

Giriraja: Yes, that we do.

Prabhupada: Follow this policy. Just like govindaya namaḥ;. When you see that the puffed rice is flying in the air, "All right, govindaya namaḥ;. Govindaya namaḥ;."

Giriraja: Offer it to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Otherwise I'll not give to Govinda. Income tax officer will take: "Govindaya namaḥ;." If you distribute prasadam of Govinda among the poor men... We have got already in Mayapura. Increase that. There is... They are drum-beating, that "Anyone who is hungry, please come and take prasada."

Giriraja: That they accept as charitable. They want charitable.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Giriraja: So what could be more charitable than feeding?

Prabhupada: No, you keep always kitchen, and by drum beating, that, "Anyone hungry within this area, or anywhere, come here. Take capatis, roti," and distribute prasadam. That is in our program.

Mr. Asnani: I shall go what Prabhupada says, nearest to our village, within ten miles, five miles, two miles.

Prabhupada: That I ask you. Do that. Why it is stopped, I cannot understand.

Mr. Asnani: And even the Ottomans.

Prabhupada: Yes. I'll give money...

Mr. Asnani: I'll distribute your papers to the Muhammadans in their language, Marwati.(?)

Prabhupada: Let them chant, dance, and take prasada, go away. That's all. No philosophy. Everyone will come. Chant, dance, and take prasadam. And we shall work hard for this maintaining the establishment. We are recognized beggars. We can beg. Where is anxiety? If we go to a rich man, that "I want some money for this purpose," they will pay. Where is the question of scarcity of money? You cannot say there is no money. A sannyasi can go anywhere: "Give me some money. I want to do this." They are meant for begging. And in India still... Why India? Everywhere. I am speaking of India. Still now, although India is so poverty-stricken and materialized, if a sannyasi goes to beg something, nobody will refuse. Nobody will refuse, especially in the village. They'll never refuse. "Baba, (Hindi)." He'll give. Actually our asramas are maintained by begging murti. Murti... You... Hundred houses, hundred murti. Then you can...

Mr. Asnani: Murti means they're so much helpful of...

Prabhupada: That's all.

Mr. Asnani: And in countryside they consider, "Grace of God is our culture." In villages...

Prabhupada: In villages no sannyasi starves. As soon as there is a sannyasi in the village, so many villagers, "Baba, aiye, prasada paiye. (Hindi)" Daily. Still in Punjab, any sannyasi goes, he gets invitation. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He was in tirtha... That is the system.

Giriraja: He couldn't fulfill all the invitations.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Giriraja: There were too many invitations.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Dasyu-dharma. Their business will be how to plunder. Because at the present moment the so-called democracy means, to tell the truth, all cunning, third-class, fourth-class men, they are doing. They have no sympathy for the general public. Their only aim is, so long he's in the office, gather as much money as possible. Am I right or not?

Mr. Asnani: Yes, sir.

Prabhupada: That means plunder. So if you remain with no money, who will plunder? Because they are becoming plunderer, you remain without any bhutis.

Giriraja: Sanatana Gosvami, when he suspected that they were going to steal, he told, "Get rid of it."

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) Yes. He immediately offered, "I have got this seven dollars. You take it." He was astrologer. He said, "No, you have got eight dollars. But I'll not take your money." "No, no, you take, sir. You'll not take—somebody will take. I'll give you. Kindly help me." And he chastised his servant, "Why you have taken these dangerous things? So you have got still one dollar. You go back. You don't come with me. And eight dollars I have given him. I'll be free." He thought that "Master is by sentiment leaving home and he is so opulent. Let me go with him and keep some money in case of emergency." Of course, that is... From his part it was right, but he thought that "Without this money, to remain, is more safe than to feel safety by keeping money." Because if the government is plunderer, then there is no other. This time is coming. The government will plunder in the name of taxation, and there will be no rainfall, scarcity of food. So everyone will feel very difficult to maintain the family. They'll leave voluntarily and go away. This is foretold.

Gopala Krsna: This milk is not good, eh? Even for you they cheat. I told him specially, "It's for Guruji. Please don't cheat."

Prabhupada: Who cares for Guruji? (laughs) Who cares for Guruji? They think that "Guruji is cheating you—I am cheating your Guruji. What is the wrong?" They think Guruji means cheater. Nowadays, Guruji means cheater. "So you are cheated by your Guruji, so let me cheat your Guruji." That's all. Sate satam samacaret. If one is sat, cunning, you should be also cunning, more cunning. This is Canakya Paná¸ita's advice, policy. Sate satam samacaret. Very miserable condition in this age. Therefore the sane man should utilize the little opportunity of human life in the cent percent Krsna consciousness. That is the proper utilization of life. Try to serve Krsna cent percent. Bas. That is proper utilization. The so-called philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this ism, that.... Bogus.... Not bogus-useless. It will not help. They are pious activities. So, Caitanya-caritamrta says, pious or impious, both of them are impediments to Krsna consciousness. So we are not interested with pious activities or impious even. We are interested how to serve Krsna. Our philosophy is very difficult to understand. Suppose you are giving some medical relief, and if I say that "Why you should waste your time by giving medical relief? Why not give him relief from birth and death?" they'll laugh. Is it not? They'll laugh, that "What nonsense he's speaking? This man is suffering. He immediately requires." We don't say that "You don't give medical relief," but why do you forget the real business? That is our.... Vivekananda said, "What is the use of pouring water in tulasi? Better pour water in a eggplant saka. You'll get some eggplant." This is.... Vivekananda said. Eggplant is also a small tree, and tulasi... So if somebody is pouring water on a tulasi leaf for bhakti, he condemns him, "Why you are wasting time? Pour water on this eggplant. Tomorrow you'll get two." (laughs) This is karmi. "God is fictitious. God's service is another sentiment. Do something practical."

Mr. Asnani: He was a politician. Pseudopolitician.

Prabhupada: He went to preach Vedanta, but instead of preaching Vedanta, he learned so many things which is objectionable from Vedic civilization.

Mr. Asnani: He also said that you cannot teach the religion on empty stomachs.

Prabhupada: That is his philosophy.

Giriraja: So many people say that.

Prabhupada: But why the kings left their kingdom and became empty stomach? There were...

Mr. Asnani: They lived in jungle for tapasya.

Prabhupada: Why this Bharata-varsa, Bharata Maharaja, at the twenty-four years of age and his wife was young, children were young, and he was emperor of the whole world, so why went voluntarily to become empty stomach? He was not poverty-stricken. But why he accepted?

Devotee: Tapasya.

Mr. Asnani: No, he realized that the material world is not the solution.

Prabhupada: There is no question of empty stomach. God is supplying food to the ant, and why shall I remain empty stomach? Sukadeva Gosvami has said, cirani kim pathi na santi disanti bhiksam. Find out this verse. Kasmad bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadandhan [SB 2.2.5]. Cirani kim na santi, pathi.

Giriraja: Is it the First Canto?

Prabhupada: Yes. The first word is cirani. C-i-r-a-n-i.

Gopala Krsna: Cirani.

Giriraja: Is it cira-vasa...?

Prabhupada: No, no, cirani there is. I think it is Second Canto. Maybe Second Canto.

Giriraja: Yes. I have it.

cirani kim pathi na santi disanti bhiksam
naivanghripaḥ; para-bhrtaḥ; sarito 'py asusyan
ruddha guhaḥ; kim ajito 'vati nopasannan
kasmad bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadandhan
[SB 2.2.5]

Oh, yes. This is very good.

Prabhupada: Dhana-durmadandhan. What is the translation?

Giriraja: "Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls?"

Prabhupada: Where is the question of empty stomach? Kasmad bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadandhan. Last line.

Giriraja: "Why, then, do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth?"

Prabhupada: They think that "Why should we go to God? The devotees come here to beg from us. We are bigger than God."

Gopala Krsna: Puffed-up.

Prabhupada: Therefore they say, "empty stomach." [break] Kim ajito na avati upasannan. Read the meaning.

Giriraja: "kim—whether; ajitaḥ;—the Almighty Lord; avati—give protection; na—not; upasannan—the surrendered soul."

Prabhupada: That's it. Krsna says "You surrender." And one who has surrendered, does it mean Krsna has no responsibility? So why you are bothering to go to this dhana-durmadandhan?

Mr. Asnani: Unconditional surrender.

Prabhupada: Huh? You have done already upasannan. So is Krsna unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Krsna consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbhamela, still there are sadhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go-grhinam dina-cetasam—"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other..." This is our mission. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna.' Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Krsna. This is our... We are not going for this belly. (Hindi) They are criticizing that "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Krsna consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityananda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Krsna." This is Krsna... "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary... But they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are... We don't require any God. We have got industry." This is going on. Ya nisa sarva-bhutanam tasyam jagarti samyami. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gita.

Hari-sauri: What was that?

Prabhupada: Ya nisa. Ya. Y.

Hari-sauri: Y. Ya nisa sarva-bhutanam?

Prabhupada: Hm. (Hindi) But they are kept in darkness. This civilization is like that.

Hari-sauri:

ya nisa sarva-bhutanam
tasyam jagarti samyami
yasyam jagrati bhutani
sa nisa pasyato muneḥ;

"What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled, and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage." Purport? "There are two classes of intelligent men. The one is intelligent in material activities for sense gratification and the other is introspective and awake for the cultivation of self-realization. Activities of the introspective sage or thoughtful man are night for persons materially absorbed. Materialistic persons remain asleep in such a night due to their ignorance of self-realization. The introspective sage remains alert in the 'night' of the materialistic men. The sage feels transcendental pleasure in the gradual advancement of spiritual culture, whereas the man in materialistic activities, being asleep to self-realization, dreams of varieties of sense pleasure, feeling sometimes happy and sometimes distressed in his sleeping condition. The introspective man is always indifferent to materialistic happiness and distress. He goes on with his self-realization activities undisturbed by material reaction."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupada, in this stanza, I have not followed a little. That stanza which he just read it. Now, a spiritual-bent-of-mind person, he sleeps in the daytime.

Prabhupada: Materialist person...

Mr. Asnani: He sleeps in the nighttime, and there's trouble in his thoughts. Whereas a spiritual man, he's awoke in the nighttime and sleep in the daytime.

Prabhupada: First of all let us understand what is sleeping and awakening. This is the real understanding. The materialistic man, he's sleeping about self-realization. He has no information.

Mr. Asnani: He has no?

Prabhupada: Information. But the spiritualistic man, he's awakened in that, that this life is meant for self-realization. So the materialistic man, he does not know. He's kept in darkness of night, and the spiritualistic man is awakened. That is the difference.

Mr. Asnani: Why the night...?

Prabhupada: Night means ignorance, when one sleeps. Yes. And day is awakening. So what is day for the materialistic person, so that is night for the spiritualistic person. And what is day for the spiritualistic person, that is night for the... Just like a spiritualist person, he has sacrificed everything and he is after God, and they are thinking, "These rascals, unnecessarily, empty stomach, wasting, 'Krsna, Krsna, Hare Krsna,' chant." They are deriding. And he is thinking that "This rascal got this human form of body. Instead of spiritual culture, he's spoiling his life, cats and dogs." That means in the subject matter where the spiritualists were not interested, he is interested. And in the subject matter, the spiritual person, interested, he is not interested. This is day and night.

Mr. Asnani: Oh, I was taking sometime in literary sense. So it was sometimes confusing me.

Prabhupada: No, it is literally, that ya nisa sarva-bhutanam tasyam jagarti samyami. He, spiritualist person, he knows, that "What is the use of the sense gratification? The sense gratification is there in the cats and dogs. Why I am wasting in this way?" That is awakened. What is the difference? A man is having sex life in a very nice apartment, very decorated and nice cot. He is enjoying sex life, that "I am advanced civili..." And the dog is enjoying sex life on the street in presence of everyone. But the enjoyment of sex life is the same. There is no difference either for the dog or the man. So the spiritualistic man, he says that "Why shall I waste my time in sex enjoyment? This is enjoyed by the dogs and cats. I have got this human form of life for spiritual advancement." So samyami: "Stop this nonsense. Let me cultivate spiritual life." Samyami. Samyami means sense gratification stopped. That is samyami. And he is not samyami. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram. Because he's not samyami, his sense are uncontrolled, so he's opening the path of hellish condition of life. The business is the same—ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam—based on this maithuna, sex life. So you'll find the fly is doing the same thing, and the dog is doing the same thing, and the human being is also doing the same thing, and the king of heaven, he is doing the same thing. The business is the same. Punaḥ; punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Only the body is different. But they are thinking that "If in the body of Indra, I can have sex with Sacidevi, that is advancement." He does not think that the sex life with Sacidevi or the street dog, it is same. There is no difference. And that is jagarti. That is awakened. There is one word. Where it is, I don't remember. Maithunam agaram ajñaḥ;. This is.... This material life is a term of imprisonment of imprisonment in sex. Just like imprisonment means you are detained in a place allotted by the government, you cannot go out. So here, this material world, the imprisonment is the sex. You cannot go out.

Mr. Asnani: Only sex, Prabhupada? Or...

Prabhupada: All sex. First of all sex.

Mr. Asnani: But among them, the sex is very powerful.

Prabhupada: Pumsaḥ; striya mithuni-bhavam etat. This is the basic principle of... A man and woman is married; the purpose is sex. Now, when he's married, ataḥ; grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair. "Then where shall I enjoy sex? I must have very nice apartment, grha. Then I must maintain myself, ksetra." Formerly agriculture was the source of maintenance. Ataḥ; grha-ksetra. "Then I get some children, suta, then some friends." Ataḥ; grha-ksetra-suta apta vitta. "Then money." In this way, janasya moho 'yam aham mameti: [SB 5.5.8] "He increases this paraphernalia, and he becomes entangled:" Aham mam... "I am the proprietor; I am the father; I am this; I am that." And one day, nature's law comes, gives him a slap: "Get out!" Finished.

Mr. Asnani: All relationship goes away.

Prabhupada: Mrtyuḥ; aham sarva-haras ca. "I take away."

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupada, why people are not able to understand this?

Prabhupada: Fools! Muá¸ho nabhija...

Mr. Asnani: Even we are encircling ourselves in the desires, cage.

Prabhupada: Muá¸ho nabhijanati mam ebhyaḥ; param... They do not know the aim of life. Therefore apasyatam atma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Cannot see what is the aim of life. Therefore it is the duty of the parents. That is advised by Prahlada Maharaja. Kaumara acaret prajño dharman: [SB 7.6.1] "From the very beginning of life they should be taught about this Bhagavata-dharma." That is brahmacari. Brahmacari, train him to be self-controlled... If I ask you, "Give me your sons. We shall teach him how to become self-controlled," you'll laugh. Because you know, "What will be the benefit by becoming self-controlled? There is struggle for existence. He has to earn money, maintain himself." I have got this experience.

Mr. Asnani: Yes. You told my wife also.

Prabhupada: Nobody is interested. That is the difficulty in this age. Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ; [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know how one can become happy. They are simply hoping against hope. Durasaya. Asaya means hope, and dura means which will never be fulfilled. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ;.

Pradyumna: You wrote that essay one time, "Hope Against Hope."

Prabhupada: Yes. Hope against hope is which is never fulfilled.

Mr. Asnani: Living in the fool's paradise.

Prabhupada: Yes. "This plan has failed. Now let me this, make this plan. And then again fail? All right, let me this." This is hope against hope. He's thinking that "This plan has failed. Let me do this plan." Again failed? "Again another, again another."

Mr. Asnani: Foundation, as you said, is on the household.

Hari-sauri: Moghasa.

Prabhupada: Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jñana vicetasaḥ;... [Bg. 9.12].

Hari-sauri: Baffled hope.

Prabhupada: It will never be fulfilled, but still, they will make plan. The Napoleon made a plan. Hitler made a plan. Churchill made a plan. Gandhi made a plan. Mussolini made a plan. But the plan and planmaker—all washed away. Things are going on as it is. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't make plan. Take to My plan. You'll be happy. I'll give you." This planmaking... Our government has got planning commission. The planning commission has brought people in such a condition that they are dying of starvation. And they are taking salary, big, big, fat salary. This is going on.

Mr. Asnani: And taking share from the black market also.

Prabhupada: How you can expect good wishes from such persons? Very precarious condition. Your son, you take care. Now, as soon as you make a committee to take care of your son, then everything is finished. Is it not? The committee members will finish the son and the son's maintenance and everything. But that is going on. Formerly there was one monarch. He was acting according to the Vedic instruction. So he was responsible. And if there are many votes, by vote a government, a combination of plunderers, what they will take care of the people? It is impossible. Otherwise why there was need of dragging down Nixon? He was elected, wrong elected. Wrong must be. The people are wrong. They do not know who is the right man. Any rascal makes some intrigue, and he gets vote. And then they detect, "Oh, he's the wrong man." Again another is taken. Punaḥ; punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. And what is the guarantee that another man is right? Because the process is wrong.

Hari-sauri: They're continually re-electing a new man. The got rid of Nixon, put Ford in. Now they've got rid of Ford; they've put Carter in. And then they'll get rid of Carter, and they'll put someone else in.

Prabhupada: Punaḥ; punas carvita-carvananam: [SB 7.5.30] "Again and again chewing the chewed." But if they make it point that "If one is not Krsna consciousness, I'll not give a vote," then everything will be perfect, nice.

Hari-sauri: Some countries fine you if you don't vote. If you don't vote, they fine you just to make people vote, because they know otherwise everybody's so disgusted...

Prabhupada: Just see. I have never given vote. Since we have got this sva-raj, as soon as the vote question, I go away. Because I think, "Why shall I give this nonsense vote? None of them are liked by me." I avoid it. In my grhastha life, the municipal board and the..., I avoid. I don't believe in. So give Mr. Asnani some fruits.

Hari-sauri: Some fruit?

Prabhupada: Cut into pieces.

Mr. Asnani: Prabhupada, Allahabad, where are you staying?

Prabhupada: We have got our own camp. You are coming?

Mr. Asnani: I am not fortunate.

Prabhupada: I am going because I have to go to Bhuvanesvara via Calcutta. So it is on the way. And besides that, it is a big function. And because my health is not good, if Allahabad atmosphere or Bhuvanesvara atmosphere helps me little, it is... Of all foodstuff, I see the kitri is good for me, little kitri.

Mr. Asnani: Easily digested also.

Prabhupada: So I shall begin again kitri. (Hindi) [break] ...take agriculture, you must keep cows. Both of them are related.

Giriraja: Together.

Prabhupada: The cow will be subsisting on the grass, and refused things he'll take. And the substance you take. And even if does not give milk, the stool is useful. And you get food grown by the cows and bulls and milk. You subsist. So by mutual cooperation you subsist. You save time. Chant Hare Krsna. Why you are bothered?

Giriraja: No bother.

Prabhupada: This I want to introduce. And it has become successful in the Western countries. They are doing very nicely, New Vrindaban. Very nice. And Philadelphia, New Orleans. Men, they're happy. So why not in India? India is mainly agricultural country. On this principle you can take. There is no objection. I left Hamsaduta in charge, but he left everything.

Giriraja: Actually, it seems that in your system of management, the basic principle is to depend on Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? He says aham tvam sarva-papebhyo [Bg. 18.66]. Distress will be if I am disobedient. This is nature's law. And if I surrender to Krsna, where is the question of distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje duḥ;kha se haje. This is one Hindi poetry, that "When one is in distressed condition, he goes to God: 'Please save me. Give me this mercy.' " So duḥ;ka se means: "In distressed condition he becomes a devotee." But if he becomes a devotee when he's happy, then where is the question of duḥ;kha, or distress? Sukha se saba hari bhaje. When you are happy, at that time if you worship Hari, then there is no question of duḥ;kha. That Vivekananda's policy, daridra-narayana-seva. Why not seva-narayana? Why He should become daridra? Why not engage in? That he does not know. "He becomes a daridra-narayana, and I become his servant." Foolish rascal. A discovered philosophy. (end)