Pradyumna: This says, "God is an Indian." Putaparti. "God is an Indian. His contemporary avatara..."

Prabhupada: Putaparti? What is that?

Pradyumna: Putaparti is in Andhra. "His contemporary avatara rests in the trinity of Sirti Baba, Sai Baba, and Prem Baba to come. So Satya Sai Baba, the second of the triple incarnation, asserted in the course of a marathon interview to add, 'In my present avatara, I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity.' "

Prabhupada: So, to whom we shall address this letter?

Pradyumna: Well, it depends where we want to send it for publishing. To this or to another magazine.

Prabhupada: He says that "I'm avatara." So therefore it should be addressed to him. He says. So address to Satya Sai Baba. Where is he, at Bombay?

Pradyumna: No, he stays at this Putaparti or in Bangalore.

Prabhupada: Putaparti...

Pradyumna: That is a small village.

Prabhupada: Oh. Post office, Putaparti. And it is in, where Bangalore?

Pradyumna: That is in Andhra.

Prabhupada: Andhra. Hmm. Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on—give the date—we were surprised to find one article "God is an Indian." And you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us. Or many of us. We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Krsna's incarnation is fully described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Lord Krsna's incarnationship or give... What it should be?

Pradyumna: Lord Krsna's incarnation...

Prabhupada: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Krsna is incarnation, so avataratva. So what is the English? Avataratva?

Pradyumna: The incarnationness or quality of being an incarnation, but that is not... The quality of being an incarnation is not... The most literal is incarnationness.

Prabhupada: Therefore say that. Lord Krsna's incarnationness is fully described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Similarly, Lord Ramacandra's incarnationness or Lord Buddha's incarnationness, Lord Caitanya's incarnationness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures.

Pradyumna: Lord Rama's incarnationness, Lord Buddha's incarnationness...

Prabhupada: Lord Caitanya.

Pradyumna: Oh.

Prabhupada: Where is your incarnation is described? Will you kindly give the reference. Anyone can say like you, that one is incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only is the proof of one's becoming incarnation? Some such unauthorized claim of becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Such...

Pradyumna: ...unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation...

Prabhupada: Is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take form. What is he has written?

Pradyumna: "Then you have claimed to take..."

Prabhupada: No, no. What he has written.

Pradyumna: "In my present avatara I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity."

Prabhupada: So you have claimed to... What is that? Again read it.

Pradyumna: "I have come armed with the fullness of the power of the formless God to save humanity."

Prabhupada: So you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gita that God is never formless. Find out this verse, avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayaḥ;.

Pradyumna:

avyaktam vyaktim apannam
manyante mam abuddhayaḥ;
param bhavam ajananto
mamavyayam anuttamam
[Bg. 7.24]

"Unintelligent men who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Pradyumna: "Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Krsna in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yamunacarya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Ramanujacarya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says, 'My dear Lord, devotees like Vyasadeva and Narada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedanta and the Upanisads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead.' In the Brahma-samhita it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedanta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedanta and speculation on Vedic literature..."

Prabhupada: You can give up to that Yamunacarya's quotation. What you have written.

Pradyumna: So far? Everything? Or just... Only, is one's word only...

Prabhupada: What you have written.

Pradyumna: "Dear Sai Baba, just recently..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Last what you have written.

Pradyumna: "Similarly, Lord Rama's incarnation, Lord Buddha's incarnation, Lord Caitanya's incarnationness, we have got full information from the Vedic scriptures. Where is your incarnation described? Will you kindly give the reference. Anyone can say like you, that one is an incarnation, as it has become a fashion nowadays. But is that claim only the proof of one's becoming an incarnation? Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming an incarnation is certainly ridiculous. Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God. But we see in the Bhagavad-gita that God is never formless."

Prabhupada: (dictating:) Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates, He takes a particular form. In this connection, a verse from Yamunacarya may be quoted as follows. You have quoted the Bhagavad-gita? That quote?

Pradyumna: Well, it doesn't mention the Sanskrit here of that Yamunacarya verse.

Prabhupada: No, no. "In the Bhagavad-gita it is said"—what you have written?

Pradyumna: Oh. We can put the Sanskrit, avyaktam vyaktim apannam.

Prabhupada: No, what you have written here?

Pradyumna: "Such unauthorized claim of one's becoming... Then you have claimed to take a form of the formless God, but we see in the Bhagavad-gita..."

Prabhupada: That you have to quote.

Pradyumna: Yes. So, Bhagavad-gita 7.24, Sanskrit and translation. "But we see in the Bhagavad-gita..."

Prabhupada: Read it.

Pradyumna:

avyaktam vyaktim apannam
manyante mam abuddhayaḥ;
param bhavam ajananto
mamavyayam anuttamam
[Bg. 7.24]

"Unintelligent men who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme." That God is never formless. Only the rascals and less intelligent class of men think that God is formless and when He incarnates he takes a particular form. In this connection a verse from Yamunacarya may be quoted as follows.

Prabhupada: So what is Yamunacarya's quotation?

Pradyumna: "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyasadeva and Narada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: You have to quote that verse and the meaning.

Pradyumna: But the Sanskrit wasn't give here?

Prabhupada: The Sanskrit is there.

Pradyumna: No, but this verse from Yamunacarya.

Prabhupada: Oh. You'll find the Sanskrit in the Caitanya-caritamrta.

Pradyumna: Oh. Which place?

Prabhupada: In the Adi-lila. Tam, it begins with tam. You can find out. Call, call him. (bell rings) Read. The Sanskrit verse is not...

Pradyumna: No, it's not quoted here.

Prabhupada: Tam paribhavita, like that. There is a verse.

Pradyumna: Oh. I will find it.

Prabhupada: Adi-lila.

Hari-sauri: Which volume?

Prabhupada: Caitanya-caritamrta.

Hari-sauri: First volume?

Prabhupada: I think. There is, what is called, index?

Pradyumna: Yes, for Adi-lila? Where's the verse index.

Hari-sauri: Which verse is it. If you give me the verse I can...

Pradyumna: It begins tam paribhavita. T-a-m. T-a-m. Tam paribhavita.

Prabhupada: You can bring here. Then?

Pradyumna: So this quote goes on. "But those who in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing the Vedanta and the Upanisads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: So in this connection, the statement of Bhagavatam, is especially important. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahman is impersonal, Paramatma is localized, and Bhagavan is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead...

Pradyumna: Brahman is the impersonal.

Prabhupada: Brahman is impersonal. Not "the." Paramatma is localized, and Bhagavan is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Arjuna understood Krsna after hearing Bhagavad-gita, he addressed Krsna as follows. Quote this, param brahma param dhama [Bg. 10.12]. Find out. No. Find out in the book.

Pradyumna:

param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
[Bg. 10.12]

Prabhupada: Purusam sasvatam...

Pradyumna: Purusam sasvatam divyam.

Prabhupada: Divyam. So here Arjuna addresses Lord Krsna as sasvatam purusam, eternally the Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that Supreme Lord is originally imperson. Purusam. I have described purusam? Yes. What you have written?

Pradyumna: "When Arjuna understood Krsna after hearing Bhagavad-gita, he addressed Krsna as follows, param brahma param dhama [Bg. 10.12], etc. Here Krsna addresses... Here Arjuna addresses Krsna as sasvatam purusam or the eternal Personality of Godhead. It is never admitted that the Supreme Lord is originally impersonal."

Prabhupada: Then, you read the other verses. Param...

Pradyumna:

param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
[Bg. 10.12]

Prabhupada: Then?

Pradyumna: Ahus tvam rsayaḥ; sarve devarsir naradas tatha.

Prabhupada: You have to quote this. Then? Read.

Pradyumna: Translation?

Prabhupada: No, no. That you have to give a quotation and, then? What is next verse.

Pradyumna: In Bhagavad-gita after this?

Prabhupada: Ahus tvam, then next, what is next verse.

Pradyumna: Ah,

vaktum arhasy asesena
divya hy atma-vibhutayaḥ;
yabhir vibhutibhir lokan
imams tvam vyapya tisṭhasi

"Please tell me in detail of Your divine..."

Prabhupada: That's all right. Next.

Pradyumna:

katham vidyam aham yogims
tvam sada paricintayan
kesu kesu ca bhavesu
cintyo 'si bhagavan maya

"How should I meditate on You?"

Prabhupada: That's all right. Next.

Pradyumna:

vistarenatmano yogam
vibhutim ca janardana
bhuyaḥ; kathaya trptir hi
srnvato nasti me 'mrtam

"Tell me in detail, O Janardana, of Your mighty potencies and glories, for I never tire of hearing..."

Prabhupada: The point is that "Your personality cannot be understood without Your mercy." There is a verse. Ahus tvam rsayaḥ; sarve. Find out that verse.

Pradyumna: Aham?

Prabhupada: Ahus.

Pradyumna: Oh, ahus.

Prabhupada: Ahus tvam rsayaḥ;. You read just now.

Pradyumna: Yes.

ahus tvam rsayaḥ; sarve
devarsir naradas tatha
asito devalo vyasaḥ;
svayam caiva bravisi me

Prabhupada: Next verse.

Pradyumna:

sarvam etad rtam manye
yan mam vadasi kesava
na hi te bhagavan vyaktim
vidur deva na danavaḥ;
[Bg. 10.14]

Prabhupada: Vyaktyam?

Pradyumna: Vyaktim. Na hi te bhagavan vyaktim vidur deva na danavaḥ;. "O Krsna, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality."

Prabhupada: Yes, that's...

Pradyumna: Oh, it says,

svayam evatmanatmanam
vettha tvam purusottama
bhuta-bhavana bhutesa
deva-deva jagat-pate

Hari-sauri: There's no verse index in any of the Adi-lila.

Prabhupada: There is, but we are missing.

Pradyumna: I have the Bengali.

Prabhupada: The all acaryas say that Your personality, although there are so many evidences in sastra and authorized persons, still, the rascals cannot understand. So here is another verse, ahus tvam rsayaḥ; sarve.

Pradyumna: So do you want to quote this verse?

Prabhupada: Hm. Must quote.

Pradyumna:

sarvam etad rtam manye
yan mam vadasi kesava
na hi te bhagavan vyaktim
vidur deva na danavaḥ;
[Bg. 10.14]

Prabhupada: (dictating:) So one has to accept the statement of Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He is originally the purusa or person. Impersonal Brahman is expansion of the rays of His personal body, exactly like the sunshine is expansion of the rays of the sun-god Vivasvan. Vivasvan is a person in the sunglobe and Krsna is also a person who spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita long, long years before He spoke the same to Arjuna. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Therefore the conclusion is that originally God is always a person. Impersonal Brahman is emanation from the personal God. In other words, God, personal God is not from impersonal Brahman, but impersonal Brahman is from the personal God. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita as follows.

Pradyumna: Impersonal Brahman is an emanation of the personal God. It is not, it is not that the personal God is an emanation of...from... or it is that impersonal Brahman is an emanation. It is not that the personal God is an emanation of impersonal Brahman.

Prabhupada: Impersonal Brahman is resting on the personal God, exactly that illumination of light is resting on the bulb. Not that the bulb is resting on the illuminated light.

Pradyumna: Exactly like illumination of light is resting...

Prabhupada: On the bulb, electric bulb. Not the bulb is resting on the illumination. Besides that, we learn from Bhagavad-gita, Second Chapter... Find out that verse. "It is not that we were..."

Pradyumna: Na tv evaham?

Prabhupada: Ah.

Pradyumna:

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipaḥ;
na caiva na bhavisyamaḥ;
sarve vayam ataḥ; param

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."

Prabhupada: So Krsna has personally said to Arjuna that in the past he was person.

Pradyumna: So "Krsna, in person"?

Prabhupada: No, no. Yes. Krsna, as a person, says to Arjuna that both of them existed in the past as person, and they'll continue to remain person in the future.

Pradyumna: Both of them existed in the past as person and both of them shall continue to...

Prabhupada: Remain as person in the future. So without knowing all this knowledge, a muḍha accepts the incarnation of God as coming from imperson. Avajananti mam muḍha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. Under this heading you have proved yourself to become a muḍha. And how a muḍha or an ass can become the incarnation of God? Then? Read that Blitz paper, one after another.

Pradyumna: Then, this is the end of his quote and then the editor, the writer is speaking. "This may appear an extraordinarily controversial claim to those unfamiliar with the spiritual depths of Hindu religio-philosophy. The latter totally accepts the avatara concept which broadly means the descent of the divine principle into human affairs. In the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krsna intervenes to say..."

Prabhupada: That is the editor's.

Pradyumna: Yes, this is the editor's. "In the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krsna intervenes to save humanity from evil forces. The Puranas personify earth, the mother, as groaning under a similar burden to supplicate God for relief." Then heading, "Solution and cure to world's ills. To Baba's devotees, the avatara has similarly come to provide both the solution and the cure to a world living in terror of a nuclear holocaust. The false dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, purusa and deva, simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures, which prescribe..."

Prabhupada: What is that?

Pradyumna: "The dichotomies."

Prabhupada: Dichot...? What is that?

Pradyumna: Dichotomy means some kind of distinction, to make a distinction. He said the dichotomies created by Western thought between God and man, purusa and deva. Differences or analysis of differences. "Simply do not exist in the Indian scriptures..."

Prabhupada: Why not?

Pradyumna: "Which prescribe the assimilation of God in man and man in God as the basis of religion."

Prabhupada: This is another rascaldom. God is always distinct from man.

Pradyumna: Sai Baba also quotes later, He is also directly saying, also later.

Prabhupada: What he says?

Pradyumna: Now here's the quote. "Baba personifies this philosophy. As he told me, 'God is man and man is God. All of us have something of God, the divine spark, within us. All men are divine, like myself, with the spirit embodied in human flesh and bone. The only difference is that they are unaware of this Godhood.' " I'll get it for you.

Prabhupada: So?

Pradyumna: Here he says, "The mission of the present avatara is to make everybody realize that since the same God or divinity resides in everyone, people should respect, love, and..."

Prabhupada: No, no. If he resides in everyone, then why he has special claim?

Pradyumna: Yes, well he says he has remembered.

Prabhupada: He remembers? How God can forget?

Pradyumna: That he says. That he says here. He says that, "Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration. Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You have to remove the husk to get the grain of rice. Now husk and rice both come from the same seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man."

Prabhupada: But still husk is not rice. You cannot say husk is rice.

Pradyumna: He says the husk... He says "Rice is the equivalent of God in man while the husk can be compared to desire which reduces God to man."

Prabhupada: No, no.

Pradyumna: Therefore my desire is life plus desire equals man. Life minus desire equals God."

Prabhupada: (dictating:) You are desiring to become God. There cannot be no desire. But you're unceremoniously desiring to become God. Although there is no proof in the sastras. In the Bhagavad-gita it is accepted that the living entities are sparks of..., part and parcel of God, Krsna.

Pradyumna: "In the Bhagavad-gita it is accepted that the living entities..."

Prabhupada: Are part and parcel of God. But part is never equal to the whole. [break]

Pradyumna: "So you can claim as a spark of God, as every living entity can claim but you cannot claim as the..."

Prabhupada: The Supreme Person with full power. That is misleading. You can show a little magic, as other magicians also can show.

Pradyumna: "You can show a little magic as other magicians can also show."

Prabhupada: But you cannot show the full magic, as Krsna displayed or Lord Ramacandra displayed. Therefore your claim as a full power is completely false and blasphemous.

Pradyumna: "Therefore your claim for full power is completely false..."

Prabhupada: And blasphemous. In this way find out.

Pradyumna: Completely Mayavadi.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pradyumna: Completely.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pradyumna: Now someone may bring up the one point, they say "Well, if an avatara comes if he must show all kinds of great opulences and powers, then he says sometimes the incarnation shows this, but sometimes, like when Lord Caitanya appeared He didn't show visvarupa or..."

Prabhupada: But He never claimed that "I am avatara." But we understand from the sastric evidence. He never claimed. Rather when He was addressed as Krsna He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee. Not Bhagavan. Therefore Gaurangavada is illegal. Gauranga-nagari. That is illegal. Moha-vada or something like that.

Pradyumna: Gauranga-nagari, mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Krsna dancing with the...

Prabhupada: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim... Hm.

Pradyumna: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada. (end)