Prabhupada: So they were not crying very loudly, but the grandfather inquired, "So why there is, it appears there is some great suffering?" So my father's eldest brother, he inquired, "Is your mother dead?" I consider like that, no, no. "So I am also dead." He died later on. Next day. He simply inquired, "I think your mother is dead." They said, "No, no." "No, I am also going to," and he died.

Indian Doctor: These things are not very wonderful.

Prabhupada: From spiritual point of view this has no meaning. This is worldly affection. It is worldly affection. That is not very good asset for spiritual life. Asakti. One has to give up asakti. That is the process, renouncement. Voluntarily.

Indian Doctor: Anasakta-manaḥ;.

Prabhupada: Anasaktya. Yes. Our Vedic process is that at a certain age you must retire from family life. Voluntary, forceful, giving up association.

Indian Doctor: Even there is worship (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Yes. So these are asaktis. This husband and wife dying together, it is admitted(?) because asakti is there. That asakti will help him, that the wife will become a husband next life, and the husband will become wife next. And in that way they'll have to take birth again.

Indian Doctor: Soul has got no tax.(?)

Prabhupada: Karma-bandha.

Indian Doctor: Karma-bandha and jiva.

Prabhupada: Find out this verse, Fifth Canto, Fifth Chapter.

Harikesa: Karmatmakam yena?

Prabhupada: Ah, sarira-bandha. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijñasata atma-tattvam, yavat mano vai karma?

Harikesa:

parabhavas tavad abodha-jato
yavan na jijñasata atma-tattvam
yavat kriyas tavad idam mano vai
karmatmakam yena sarira-bandhaḥ;

Prabhupada: Bandha.

Harikesa: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmatmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear. And as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body."

Prabhupada: That's all. By labha-yoga (?) woman will become man and the man will become woman.

Indian Doctor: So long you are taking birth...

Prabhupada: What action you have got? Before that the verse is,

nunam pramattaḥ; kurute vikarma
yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti
na sadhu manye yata atmano 'yam
asann api klesada asa dehaḥ;
[SB 5.5.4]

So this body is temporary, but it is very miserable. That they do not understand.

Indian Doctor: Kunape tri-dhatuke.

Prabhupada: That they do not understand. That as soon as you accept a material body, either a very rich man's body or poor man's body or any body, either brahmana's body or sudra's body, to accept material body means undergo miseries.

Indian Doctor: But you have no choice to accept. By the will of God...

Prabhupada: No, you have got... You can become free. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti...

Indian Doctor: Bhakti-avyabhicarini. I have got that tendency, bhakti, avyabhicarini-bhakti.

Prabhupada: No, no, simply to know Krsna. Mam ca 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena ya... So you cannot understand Krsna without bhakti. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. So without bhakti there is no possibility to understand Krsna. But if you understand Krsna, then you'll become free from this process of accepting material body.

Indian Doctor: Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66].

Prabhupada: Yes. This is only business, to become Krsna conscious and avoid this botheration of repeating body, tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. Dehantara-praptiḥ; is there. If you want to stop dehantara-praptiḥ;, then you have to become Krsna conscious. There is no other way. But if you think that it is very pleasure to enter within the womb of mother and accept one body, and again come out and again work, and again die, and again enter. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. If you want this business, that is your choice. You can do it. But if you want to stop it, then this is the only way. Therefore sastra says na sadhu manye. It is not good. Nunam, read that verse.

Harikesa:

nunam pramattaḥ; kurute vikarma
yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti
na sadhu manye yata atmano 'yam
asann api klesada asa dehaḥ;
[SB 5.5.4]

Prabhupada: Klesada asa dehaḥ;. Klesada, as soon as you get a body, klesada. May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sadhu manye. It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ;. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nunam pramattaḥ; kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya-pritaya aprnoti, only for sense gratification. They have no other ambition. Bring money and gratify senses. This is modern civilization. This is the exact explanation-nunam pramattaḥ; kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. Black money, white money, this money, that..., never mind, bring money.

Indian Doctor: (laughter) By any way.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is modern civilization. Big man, big rich man means bring money some way or other. This is big man. This is Kali-yuga. Because if you have got money, you have got respect, you have got honor, you are recognized. So therefore they are after money. Bring money, that's all right. When I shall get money, I may have done black money, force money, this money, nobody will remember it. Bas. This is modern civilization. Bring money and enjoy sense. Nunam pramattaḥ; kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. What for it is, struggle so much working hard? Yad indriya-pritaya. Only for the satisfaction of the senses. They have no other ambition. Because most of them, they do not believe there is next life. Most of them, 99.9 percent, they do not believe. Big, big professor, I have talked with so many big, big men in Europe. They have no... Our leaders also. The Munshi, he did not believe in the next life.

Indian Doctor: There is research in parapsychology in certain municipality(?) of India, they have proved that (indistinct).

Prabhupada: That they may do, a very great service, but we know it without going to the psychological process. We believe Krsna. Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13], bas, finished. What is the use of going to the psychology and...?

Indian Doctor: But those...

Prabhupada: No, no, those who are fools, they may waste their time in that way. (laughter) But we are not so fool.

Indian Doctor: They are fools to not to think that they'll become...

Prabhupada: They are rascal fools because they do not take Krsna's word. Krsna says tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. Why should we bother? Our mission is simply to propagate Krsna's instructions. This is Krsna consciousness movement. We don't manufacture anything. So-called yoga, so-called meditation, so-called this and... We don't care for all this nonsense. Our only business is how to implement the instruction of Krsna, the rascals may understand and be happy. That is our mission. We haven't got to manufacture anything. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You simply carry the message of Krsna and try to deliver it to anyone you meet. This is our... We haven't got to manufacture anything. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. Take it, without interpretation. Don't spoil the whole thing. Interpretation means spoiling. Whole thing spoiled.

Indian doctor: Each man understands according to his own level of understanding.

Prabhupada: No. Suppose, just like you are medical man, you are giving somebody medicine, you are giving the direction. If he wants to be cured, he must take your direction. Not that somebody comes, "No, no, you can take it this way, you can do this." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. This nonsense we want to stop. Krsna is giving the instruction, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12], the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What business you have got to poke your nose and give interpretation? Are you bigger than Krsna? Krsna left it for you? This nonsense going on. Big, big swamis, big, big yogis, big, big politicians, simply misinterpreting, he's spoiling his own life and he's spoiling others. Bas. This is going on. Very serious condition.

Guest: You are not going to go down now?

Prabhupada: No.

Gopala Krsna: Would you like to go on the terrace, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: If I like, I can... (conversation in Hindi) Why I have taken so much trouble?

Guest: They are already traced out. So we come here.

Prabhupada: No, you come and preach. The country is going to hell, the human society is going to hell for misguidance. These rascal leaders, they're going to hell themselves and they're leading others. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhaḥ; [SB 7.5.31]. These fools and rascals are leading, they are going to hell, and they are taking the followers to the hell. This is going on. Stop this. At least in India. Save. That is real para-upakara. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission.

bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

Para-upakara. Our India is not meant for exploiting others. Doing good to others, that is India's mission. Our teachers, our acaryas, do not teach us "Go and exploit others and bring money"—British Empire. This is not India.

Indian Doctor: Even Jesus never taught that. These are the wrong followers.

Prabhupada: Jesus is different thing than that. I mean to say generally, generally, the people they want to exploit others.

Indian Doctor: It is the greed of the human being.

Prabhupada: Yes, but the mission should be, human being should be meant for doing good to others. Para-upakara. That para-upakara spirit is gone on account of losing our own culture. Otherwise, India's culture is para-upakara. India was open, "Come everyone, learn." Lord Jesus Christ also came here. All the Chinese, learned scholars, they used to come. The history is there. And India was open. Grhe satrum api praptam visvastam akutobhayam. This is Indian culture. Even the enemy comes, "Yes, please come, you stay." But later on, they took advantage: "Oh, they are very liberal, enter there." And still we are liberal. "Please come here, stay here and take prasadam free, and chant Hare Krsna." Open to everyone. I shall manage anyway, I shall travel, still I shall lay down my life and bring money. Come here, stay. Still we are liberal. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. First of all, make your life successful by Krsna consciousness. Then do good to others. Yesterday, I think, in Tehran, one boy came. He proposed that is it not good to help others? I immediately challenged, "What you have got you can help? What is your asset?" You cannot help. It is simply bogus proposition. If you can help, you can simply help by spreading Krsna consciousness, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "Sir, I have come to you." "Why?" "To request you that you become Krsna conscious." "How?" Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;, "Always think of Me, just become My devotee, offer little obeisances." Anyone can do, a child can do. You cannot do? What is the difficulty to become Krsna conscious? Is there any difficulty? You haven't got to practice any yoga process, pressing your nose or keeping your head or this or that, no. Nothing. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru mam evaisyasi asamsayaḥ; [Bg. 18.65]. "Without any doubt you are coming back to Me." And that is the highest perfection, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. There is no difficulty in preaching this Krsna consciousness. There is no difficulty to accept it. And the result is the supreme.

Indian Doctor: These are the people who have no faith.

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to canvass. They have no faith, I know that. Then why there is necessity of preaching all over the world? They have no faith, it is a fact. And you have to create faith. That is preaching. Padayor nipatya. That Prabodhananda Sarasvati,

dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya
krtva ca kaku-s atam etad aham bravimi
he sadhavaḥ; sakalam eva vihaya durad
gauranga-candra-carane kurutanuragam

This is preaching. Prabodhananda Sarasvati, what is that? Kaku-satam padayor nipatya, kaku-satam krtva, satam, "I fall down on your feet and I am flattering you with folded hands." "Why? Why? What do you want to say?" "Yes, I have to say something." "What is that? Say it! Why you are becoming so humble?" "Yes, I have to say." "What? Say it!" He sadhavaḥ;, "You are a very nice sadhu. But you forget all nonsense."

Indian Doctor: That's krsna-upakara.(?)

Prabhupada: He sadhavaḥ; sakalam eva vihaya, "Whatever nonsense you have learned-forget." Then what to do? Kaku-satam bravimi sakalam eva vihaya durad gauranga-candra-carane kurutanuragam. "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ; [Bg. 18.69]. If one is doing like that, Krsna immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Krsna, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and... To be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ; [Bg. 18.69]. Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Krsna recognizes. Krsna never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I can do it. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idam paramam guhyam [Bg 18.68]. What is that paramam guhyam? Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramam guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mrtyuḥ; sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. Bas, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netrena. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog, just become a dog. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. Just like your medical science, you have infected the disease, you must suffer disease. Karanam guna-sangaḥ;, guna-sangaḥ;. There's infection.

Indian Doctor: Only in nirguna, a man can become nirguna by...

Prabhupada: Eh, don't talk of nirguna, first of all (laughter) become a dog.

Indian Doctor: Because the only thing that can bring nirguna, then you may stop from getting a dog. If you do the bhakti. That is what I mean.

Prabhupada: Nirguna means bhakti. Nirguna means bhakti. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. That is nirguna. When you are untouched by the three gunas, then you are nirguna. That is not very easy job. That is not easy.

mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma na socati [Bg. 18.54]. Nirguna is not so easy thing. This is nirguna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. This is nirguna. Otherwise, everything sa gunan, everything sa gunan. Only fully surrendered to Krsna, nirguna. This is... So (Hindi) They are talking, "Yes, you take Bhagavad-gita without Krsna." They say it, and they are doing that.

Indian Doctor: Who?

Prabhupada: Anyone. Take Mahatma Gandhi. He was so great student of Bhagavad-gita. Did he preach krsna-bhakti? Bhagavad-gita minus Krsna, this is going on. Yes. Kamsa. Kill Krsna. This is going on. What is the meaning of Bhagavad-gita without Krsna? And everyone is preaching like this. Very worse condition of the world. Godlessness, and they'll suffer, there is no doubt. Prakrti is very strong. You can do whatever you like, but karanam guna-sango 'sya, that will act. You may be very proud of your so-called prestigious position, but the karanam guna-sango 'sya... Purusaḥ; prakrti-stho hi... [Bg. 13.22]. Find out.

Guest: Bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan.

Prabhupada: Bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. He has to, he has to. Bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan. So we are now put into the material prakrti, and prakrti-jan gunan, we have to accept another body.

prakrteḥ; kriyamanani
gunaiḥ; karmani sarvasaḥ;
ahankara-vimuḍhatma
kartaham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

This is the rascaldom. Jaya. Prasadam, you have got? What is the report?

Yasomatinandana: We are publishing monthly magazine every month now, one is coming out in a few days for Janmasṭami. We have changed new house, very good house.

Prabhupada: What is the rent?

Yasomatinandana: Land also...

Prabhupada: No, no, rent.

Yasomatinandana: Rent is thousand rupees. One thousand rupees, plus tax for government.

Prabhupada: Plus twelve hundred?

Yasomatinandana: No, plus two hundred tax. They are life members from Ahmedabad. They came to see Your Divine Grace.

Prabhupada: Oh, thank you. So give them place to stay. (end)