Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla
Washington D.C.
5 Jul

Dr. Sukla: There are certain hymns in Vedas which are so personal and... And I don't find anything in Vedas impersonal. As a matter of fact...

Prabhupada: No, no, impersonal there is. Impersonal means negation of this material thing. Neti neti, "Not this." Impersonal means not this material person. That is impersonal. Krsna is person, but in order to convince people that He's person but not a material person, the material things have to be negated. That is Upanisad. Just to evade the material conception of the Absolute. But ultimately He's person. Brahmano 'ham pratisṭha. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anḍa-koṭi-koṭisu [Bs. 5.40]. These things are there. So in order to substantiate the Supreme Person as completely spiritual, the material conception of personality is rejected. That is impersonal. Nirguna means He has no material qualities. Bhakta-vatsala, Krsna is bhakta-vatsala. That is not material quality, that is spiritual quality. So negation of material understanding is impersonal. But when one is fully in awareness of Krsna, His spiritual identity, then again He's person.

Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada gave the example this morning that something which is personal can speak, like Krsna spoke Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's described in Bhagavad-gita as the Supreme. But we don't have any experience of something impersonal like the sky speaking to us. So if the Supreme is impersonal, how is it that Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Him?

Dr. Sukla: Mayavadis like Swami Vivekananda, he questions "Who was Lord Krsna?" Was Krsna King of Dvaraka or anybody else, he don't know even that.

Prabhupada: He's a fool. He does not know, therefore other does not know. It is not the fact. He's a fool, he does not know.

Dr. Sukla: He does not know. He said that Gita is karma-yoga, and writes volumes and volumes...

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is his foolishness. Gita is completely bhakti-yoga. Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Everything is finished. And what is karma-yoga? What is karma-yoga?

Dr. Sukla: According to these Mayavadis...

Prabhupada: Not according, according to Bhagavad-gita.

Dr. Sukla: According to Bhagavad-gita, all the karma should be done for Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: For Krsna, yes. So that is bhakti-yoga. Yat karosi kurusva tad mad-arpanam. That is bhakti. Karma-yoga means bhakti. That is the difficulty, that these Mayavadis, they have killed India's Vedic civilization. Now India is atheist. Very tragic position.

Dr. Sukla: What are your plans for India?

Prabhupada: We are pushing this Krsna consciousness. That is being appreciated. It will take some time. Because so much mischievous activities have been done by the Mayavadis, to counteract, it will take some time. They are simply mischievous. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has rejected them. Mayavadi bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc. Madhya 6.169]. If one takes the Mayavadi version of the sastras, then his spiritual life is finished. He becomes atheist. His spiritual life is finished. Now what is the contribution? You talked about Vivekananda, what is his contribution?

Dr. Sukla: Nothing.

Prabhupada: Nothing. Simply he has taught the sannyasis to eat meat. That is his contribution. He says there is no harm eating meat. This is going on. Narayana has become daridra. Daridra-narayana, these are Vivekananda's contribution. And spoiled India's spiritual tradition. He has created one illiterate priest as God. That is his contribution, if we become honest to understand. So it will take some time to counteract all these mischievous activity. Simply mischievous.

Devotee (1): How is it that these men are so attractive to the Indian people?

Prabhupada: They have become fools. Fool's paradise, they have been made.

Dr. Sukla: Because Vivekananda became very popular in America, and...

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Who became popular in America?

Dr. Sukla: Vivekananda.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: No he didn't. That's just propaganda.

Dr. Sukla: That's propaganda, yes, but...

Pusá¹­a Krsna: :I never heard of Vivekananda until I went to Bengal.

Devotee (1): The Vedanta Society was formed...

Prabhupada: No, no, the other day we spoke that... Now in Vrndavana, you know we have got our temple. So the Ramakrishna Mission, they have got their temple also. In our temple, thousands and thousands of these Americans came, and not a single one went here. If they had preached anything, then why these American boys and girls are not interested, "Let us see where the Ramakrishna Mission stays." They do not know even. There are many present here who went to Vrndavana, and none of them were interested to see. Why? lf there was any propaganda... This is practical proof. Why none of them were interested, "Oh, here is also Ramakrishna Mandir, let us go here"? Nobody. Is it practical?

Guest: Yes, of course. Of course, even in India I don't think Vivekananda is that popular.

Dr. Sukla: Within one period, people who probably just had no good books to read, and they got some of his writings. I know my father brought some books and...

Prabhupada: So where is your home?

Dr. Sukla: It's in Benares, Kasi. So there were some books by Vivekananda, and he is emotionally against Vivekananda, so that's a little too much perhaps. So he brought those books so that I can read them, I was curious. And he said, "When you are through, give it to your cook." (laughter) That's the only functional use of those books.

Prabhupada: For burning it in the fire?

Dr. Sukla: Yes, he said so that we can make our capatis, to have some use of those things. And Krsna, of course, there's hardly a village in India where, whether knowingly or unknowingly, people are not aware what is Krsna.

Prabhupada: :In India they know, everyone. They observe Janmasá¹­ami.

Dr. Sukla: Krsna param bhajami. In India everybody knows Krsna, even the illiterate person, but nobody knows Vivekananda. Only a few people, they started a Vedanta Society. Of course Veda is a very serious literature, it's not just anybody can get into that, it's a very, it's a disciplic...

Prabhupada: Brahma-sutra-padais caiva hetumadbhir viniscitaiḥ; [Bg. 13.5]. Very.... Nyaya-prasṭhana. But Vedanta-sutra is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Therefore our Gauḍiya Vaisnavas, they did not write any comment on the Vedanta-sutra. They accept Srimad-Bhagavatam is the real bhasya. But when the Gauḍiya-Vaisnavas are challenged that "You have no Vedanta-sutra-bhasya, therefore you cannot be accepted as transcendental party," so Baladeva Vidyabhusana immediately gave Govinda-bhasya on Vedanta. Our Gosvamis, they did not write because they knew Brahma-sutra bhasya, Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Indian devotee: Srila Prabhupada, I was also a victim of this Vivekananda philosophy for a long time, and my father was very against.

Prabhupada: What is the philosophy?

Indian devotee: There is no philosophy, but it was amusing... My father all the time was telling me to do some devotional service, I was... No, if I would not do it, I would not get my breakfast. So I had to do it. But now you have your books and...

Indian woman: Srila Prabhupada, I read Ramakrishna when I was fifteen years old, and I became so restless and anxious for guru, and I began to concentrate so much, and I become so God conscious. But I don't know what happened to me by reading Ramakrishna, and I gave up my (indistinct). I don't know what's wrong with me.

Prabhupada: Eh? (devotees laugh) What is the question?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: The question is that she was so much inspired when she was very young, she read some words by Ramakrishna.

Prabhupada: What was the particular thing?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Then she started looking for guru. She became very aware of the need for guru.

Indian woman: That's why I found you. (laughter)

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Many of us who have similar experiences like that. Naturally, we weren't always so fortunate that we first came in contact with Prabhupada's books or his disciples. But somehow or another we weren't satisfied by anything, because there was some gap, some void, some missing information that didn't satisfy us.

Prabhupada: Which portion appealed to you in Ramakrishna's life? Which portion?

Indian woman: (indistinct) When he used to be married he wrote some songs, he used to practice to sing, he used to chant and he used to cry.

Dr. Sukla: Of course, first we were talking about Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two different personalities and two different paths.

Indian woman: Yes, but I thought Ramakrishna... Many times I get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't say rascal." I don't read him, but he inspired me so much. And I don't know what's wrong. Am I wrong or...?

Prabhupada: Now what is the philosophy of Ramakrishna?

Indian woman: He does not say that Krsna is God. (indistinct) and I was very young at that time.

Prabhupada: If you want to discuss, there is points of discussion. (laughs) Yes. He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone knows it. Do you know that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to that?

Dr. Sukla: No. He said, "I'm Rama and Krsna both."

Prabhupada: But he realized by worshiping Kali. (laughter)

Devotee: ...he dressed up as Radharani too.

Prabhupada: So do you agree to that? Then how you appreciate it? Indian woman: No, I don't appreciate it.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is a common sense. He, later on, he became God, by worshiping Kali, is it not?

Dr. Sukla: He was cursed by Kali.

Prabhupada: No, he was a big worshiper of Kali. And he was meat-eater also, Ma Kali's prasada, that unless one eats that prasadam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his position, that he worshiped Kali, and later on by worshiping Kali... His picture is there, mother Kali's embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata pat: "Whatever path you take, accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you think it is all right? He worshiped Kali and he said yata mata tata pat. You agree to this? Now, Ramakrishna says yata mata tata pat. And Krsna says... He became Ramakrishna, identifying himself with Krsna. And Krsna said mam ekam, and now he's becoming Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Just see. When he's actual Krsna, he says mam ekam, and when he became imitation Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna has changed his views. (laughter) Just see, this foolishness is going on.

Dr. Sukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of deranged, of a deranged mind. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the proof.

Dr. Sukla: Yes, because he was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking, he was going from one village to another village through the paddy fields, and the clouds were very thick and thunder and lightning, and he writes that he saw Kali, and I have a friend in England, Carl Wilson, who has done some work on Ramakrishna, he believes that at that very moment...

Prabhupada: These are miracles, that's all. It has no value. People are after miracles. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is said kamais tais tair hrta-jñanaḥ; yajante 'nya-devataḥ; [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshipers of other demigods, they are hrta-jñanaḥ;. Hrta-jñanaḥ;. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his comment, hrta-jñanaḥ; nasṭa buddhayaḥ;, one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali he is to be considered as hrta-jñanaḥ;, one who has lost his intelligence—and he becomes God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God. With that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost intelligence, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna says mam ekam. Sarva dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Krsna is speaking, yata mata tata pat. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how he gave up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know everything. So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of sastra.

yaḥ; sastra vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama karataḥ;
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
[Bg. 16.23]

If you have no knowledge of the sastra, then you'll never be successful in your spiritual life, what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not possible.

Indian woman: Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple?

Prabhupada: I'm talking of this Ramakrishna particularly. There is no sastra siddha. Whimsical, sentiment, that's all. So far his yata mata tata pat is concerned, at last he proposed, "Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have to eat cow's flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in Calcutta? Daksinesvari. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because it is temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So they are taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he wanted to take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I shall now practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I want your permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but if you ask this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this permission." Then he stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical.

Dr. Sukla: We have another mentally retarded person in India, Sai Baba.

Prabhupada: Yes, magic.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: We have that newspaper from South Africa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want this magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Krsna, we are preaching Krsna consciousness, "Sir, Krsna says like this, you do like that," that's all. If you like, you can do; otherwise let us do our own business. We don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in the Bhagavad-gita. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's all. (Bengali) Krsna says that He is Supreme, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So we are preaching, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme," that's all.

Dr. Sukla: Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success.

Prabhupada: Yes, people say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated. That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But I am certain that I have not adulterated what Krsna has said. That's all. And I study everything by the crucial test of Krsna's teaching. That's all. Krsna says:

na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ;
prapadyante naradhamaḥ;
mayayapahrta jñana
asuram bhavam asritaḥ;
[Bg. 7.15]

As soon as we see that somebody is not Krsna conscious or Krsna's devotee, I take them immediately he's a duskrtina, he's a muḍha, he's a naradhama. "Oh, he's educated!" mayayapahrta-jñana. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here is a mayayapahrta-jñana. That's all. Asuram bhavam asritaḥ;. Because he denies to accept Krsna, he must be within this group. Duskrtina, muḍha, naradhama, mayayapahrta-jñana. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that, that "Here is a duskrtina," that's all.

Dr. Sukla: Tulasi dasa has also said that who is not God, Krsna, conscious, you should treat them like your enemy.

Prabhupada: That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, that asat-sanga tyaga vaisnava acara. The Vaisnava's behavior is to give up bad company. Who is bad? Next question will be that "I have to give up the bad company. Who is bad?" Then He says, next line: asat stri sangi 'krsnabhakta' ara. Two words. Those who are too much attached to woman and those who are not devotees of Krsna, they are bad. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says give up the company of these two bad men, that's all. That is Vaisnava. So everything is there. If you simply follow with sincerity, then Krsna is pleased. As Arjuna says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]." That's all. He becomes perfect. And Krsna immediately accepts, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ; [Bg. 18.69]. He becomes immediately recognized by Krsna. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ; [Bg. 18.69]. Priya-krttamaḥ;, superlative. Priya-krt, priya-krtara, priya-krttamaḥ;. So let us follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita as it is, our life will be perfect. That is a fact. Don't divert your attention here and there.

Devotee: Prabhupada, you were a chemist before, but I think you are the greatest alchemist to have taken so many leaden souls and turned them into golden Vaisnavas. Perhaps you can even transform them (indistinct).

Prabhupada: So Krsna is giving us facilities to preach this cult. Everywhere we have got very, very palatial buildings to accommodate devotees. Now we have got here a very nice place, accommodate devotees. Everywhere we have got. In Bombay we are getting the best temple in India. We are spending crores of rupees, Krsna is giving us money. So I started the business with forty rupees. That was also not American currency. They allowed me to bring forty rupees. So when I was getting off the ship I asked the captain, "I have brought these forty rupees, which will not be accepted here, so you take." At that time three books I had, the first, second and third volume. So I asked him that "You purchase. Give me some dollars." So he asked, "What is the price?" "Sixteen dollars." So he gave me twenty dollars, and I delivered them. With that twenty dollars I got out down on the land of America, and that forty rupees. So I did not know where to go, where to stay. So Krsna is giving us all facilities, and these American boys are helping. I think those who are Indians, they should join this movement sincerely and preach more vigorously. People will be benefited—this is real substance. Otherwise people are being misguided, so many things going on. Transcendental meditation, the, what is called? No, another. So many. Actually, speaking for the last at least two hundred years, many swamis, people came here, but not a single person was converted to become a devotee of Krsna. That is history. What do you think, Sukla? You have studied. So many swamis, yogis, scholars came, and they spoke on Bhagavad-gita and other, but not a single person became a devotee of Krsna.

Dr. Sukla: I think they try to be impersonal.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. They are supposed to be great personalities, but not a single person was converted.

Dr. Sukla: (indistinct) ...he was asked who is such a master. He pointed out could not answer who can be such a master. He posed himself as a spiritual master.

Prabhupada: So here is an opportunity to preach real India's traditional culture. So those who are Indians present here, they should cooperate. They should not mislead further.

Dr. Sukla: We have started teaching your Gita at Georgetown University, where I teach. Before we had, we have two years course of Sanskrit, and we had some excerpts from Mahabharata and some Pañca-tantra and so on, but there was no Gita. So I decided and we were using the entire Gita for the second year. Your contributions can't be duplicated.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Dr. Sukla: And same thing with Bhagavatam. We all know what a great book that is, and what I really appreciate about the whole thing is, number one, that there are no misprints in the book. So that's a great delight. Especially, for people who do not know Sanskrit, for them, there's no difference between the wheat and the germ that comes with it. The translations are very accurate. So it's real scholarship there. And people who were not aware of this Krsna consciousness, they know that if the intellect is so powerful, the spirit must be powerful too. Our library, of course, has several copies, and our bookstore has almost all the...

Prabhupada: All over the world they have given standing order. (laughter)

Dr. Sukla: Of course, it's very attractive to look at, another thing, the colors. So it's a beauty sight. But for some people...

Prabhupada: In India, the list you have got? We have got standing order from all institution, universities, colleges, standing orders, "Send as soon as possible."

Devotee (2): The best thing is to distribute them everywhere.

Prabhupada: In Germany, in Russia, we have got order. The Russian professors, they have given order.

Dr. Sukla: Your interview with the Russian professor was really sublime.

Prabhupada: You were in Russia?

Dr. Sukla: No, I read in Bhavan's Journal, quoted from Bombay.

Devotee (1): It was in the journal, your article was in one of the Indian journals.

Prabhupada: My talk with Professor Kotovsky?

Dr. Sukla: Yes.

Indian devotee: Actually, other Indians also commented they appreciate it very much. That was the first time I started association, then I came to realize, ah, my direction, I was fooling around with Vivekananda.

Prabhupada: Now other professors you have to assure that higher appreciation. Any scholar will appreciate. Apart from religious point of view, from scholarly point of view, they like it.

Dr. Sukla: I think you should maybe some day in the future also put out a grammar, Sanskrit grammar, whether yourself you write or somebody.

Prabhupada: Grammar?

Dr. Sukla: :Grammar of Sanskrit language published by the Krsna.

Prabhupada: We have got grammar, Jiva Gosvami, Harinamamrta-vyakarana.

Dr. Sukla: Is it in English, available in translation?

Prabhupada: No, not here.

Dr. Sukla: Well, I mean for the foreigners.

Prabhupada: But here is grammar. Harinamamrta, all examples, words are harinamamrta. Yes, these are the list of, apart from European, America. "Cc" means Caitanya-caritamrta, "SB" means Srimad-Bhagavatam, standing order.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: In addition to other works also. This is within the last few months. They just started after our Mayapura festival.

Devotee (3): In Europe, Srila Prabhupada, there's a very nice Hungarian boy, he's a translator. He doesn't know English expertly, but I kept talking to him, he was working on translating.

Prabhupada: How he'll translate?

Devotee (3): He's a Hungarian and he knows Russian also.

Prabhupada: If he does not know English, how he can translate?

Devotee (3): He knows English quite fluently, but he feels not so expert in it. He's developing his expertise for English too. [break]

Prabhupada: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars.

Prabhupada: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested, than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja rightly said, deha-yogena dehinam. This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinam. But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivat, by the superior arrangement. Daivat. Sukham aindriyakam daitya deha-yogena dehinam, sarvatra labhyate daivat. By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahma or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. (aside) You can come forward.

Rupanuga: This is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently... So that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivat. So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlada Maharaja says... Where is that book, Prahlada Maharaja, Seventh Canto? Tat-prayaso na kartavyo, don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayaso na kartavyo. Why not? Yata ayur-vyayaḥ; param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata ayur-vyayaḥ;. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata ayur-vyayaḥ; param. You can read.

Pusá¹­a Krsna:

tat-prayaso na kartavyo
yata ayur-vyayaḥ; param
na tatha vindate ksemam

Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Krsna consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."

Prabhupada: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat-prayaso na kartavyo. We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged... I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist...

Pusá¹­a Krsna: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress.

Prabhupada: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Krsna festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kirtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bharata-bhumi, anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Krsna conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that... What they have said?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress.

Prabhupada: That economic development. Our acaryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyasadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Narada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kama, moksa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Srimad-Bhagavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kama moksa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ; projjhita kaitavo 'tra srimad-bhagavate [SB 1.1.2], in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, dharma, artha, kama, moksa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ; projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. So this kaitava, Sridhara Swami gives his commentary, atra moksa-vañchan paryantam nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Krsna consciousness, is on the basis... It is called bhagavata-dharma. Prahlada Maharaja begins his teaching that this bhagavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you have given. What is that?

Mr. Loomis(?): Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Krsna is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not.

Prabhupada: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Sense gratification is required as far as..., as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste.(?) It is practiced. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvamis. About them, it is said: nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, tar madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, ta 'ke jeta koṭhina samsare. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the sastra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ;. Ataḥ; sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ; [BRS. 1.2.234]. Our present senses are unable to understand sri krsna namadi, the holy name of the Lord. Adi, beginning from His name, nama, then guna, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ; sri krsna namadi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ; sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ; [BRS. 1.2.234]. The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti.

tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena hrsikesa
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]

Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hrsikesa. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam. God's another name is Hrsikesa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Krsna's hand. Krsna has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Krsna.

isvaraḥ; sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisá¹­hati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantraruḍhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]

It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Krsna. So actually it is not my body, it is Krsna's body. Krsna has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Krsna has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. Mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ; suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So Krsna is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be used for America's benefit." These are upadhi. Upadhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr... How shall I address you?

Devotees: Loomis.

Prabhupada: What is the spelling?

Devotees: L-o-o-m...

Prabhupada: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday...

Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what?

Prabhupada: Everyone is thinking that "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities?

Dr. Sukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or...

Dr. Sukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.

Prabhupada: No difference. That is described in the sastra. Yasyatma-buddhiḥ; kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is made of... Everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood?

Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?

Prabhupada: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Find out this verse. Jivasya tattva-jijñasa. This is the business, tattva-jijñasa. Tattva-jijñasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Kamasya nendriya-pritir labho jiveta yavata [SB 1.2.10].

Prabhupada: Labho jiveta yavata. You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jivasya tattva-jijñasa. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijñasa. That is the only business.

Mr. Loomis: For this machine?

Prabhupada: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktahara-viharasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Krsna instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyasadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. [break]

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Krsna consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain.

Prabhupada: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktahara-viharasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.

Prabhupada: Not for beauty rest. (laughter)

Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry...

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.

Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehantara praptir. Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyam yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumara acaret prajño dharman bhagavatan iha [SB 7.6.1]. That is brahmacari system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go-kharaḥ; [SB 10.84.13].

yasyatma-buddhiḥ; kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhiḥ; kalatradisu bhauma idyadhiḥ;
yat-tirtha-buddhiḥ; salile na karhicij
janesv abhijñesu sa eva go-kharaḥ;
[SB 10.84.13]

So just we are trying to save men from this go-kharaḥ; civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we chant Hare Krsna, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray(?) gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men to Krsna consciousness. Harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21].

Dr. Sukla: Have the writings of Vidyapati come to attention, and if they have...

Prabhupada: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyapati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Krsna and Radha, they will be discussed.

Dr. Sukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations?

Prabhupada: It is not for ordinary. Canḍidasa, Vidyapati. Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyapati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly.

Dr. Sukla: So you think they might be misused.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are being misused. They take Krsna as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Krsna's lila with the gopis, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Krsna, beginning with janmady asya yataḥ; [SB 1.1.1]. So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Krsna has nothing to do with this material world, as Sankaracarya said, narayanaḥ; para avyaktat, avyaktat anna sambhava. This material world is a production... [break] It has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When it is nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is (indistinct), that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.

Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Krsna conscious life?

Prabhupada: Art?

Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so...

Prabhupada: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Krsna. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopadhi-vinir... tat-paratvena. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. So if you can serve Krsna by your hand, by painting about Krsna, that is service. If you chant Hare Krsna, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Sravanam kirtanam visnu, about Lord Visnu, Krsna. That is the beginning. Krsna is the reservoir of pleasure, anandamayo 'byasat. So these things are producing ananda. If it is in connection with Krsna, then it is service. (aside:) So, Palika, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way...

Prabhupada: Just explain.

Pusṭa Krsna: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajña vai visnu. Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of atma, aham brahmasmi, then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupada said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable (indistinct). Krsna says, "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, anandambudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupada gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.

Prabhupada: Practical.

Devotee: When we have Krsna conscious (indistinct) struggling for(indistinct). It has to be a struggle.

Prabhupada: What is struggle? Chant Hare Krsna, dance and take prasadam. (devotee cheers)

Prabhupada: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasadam, nice prasadam, is struggle? (laughs)

Devotee: No. (laughter)

Prabhupada: You simply take prasadam, you haven't got to struggle. (laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be (indistinct).

Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: At all.

Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasadam.

Prabhupada: Su-sukham kartum avyayam. Raja-vidya raja-guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukham kartum avyayam. Find out this verse.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So...

Prabhupada: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for (indistinct) everything (indistinct). It is not magic. Krsna, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything (indistinct). You don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Krsna's mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy (indistinct). You have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say?

Devotee (3):

raja-vidya raja-guhyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam dharmyam
su-sukham kartum avyayam
[Bg. 9.2]

"This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed."

Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy?

Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct)

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Krsna consciousness society? If so, how can you be (indistinct)?

Pusṭa Krsna: The basic principle is that—Prabhupada mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk—that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vaco vegam manasaḥ; krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tara madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy sudur... always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasadam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasadam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this (indistinct) is required. It's common sense.

Guest: There are two, two functions in the tongue, one is (indistinct) and one is (indistinct)? So which one (indistinct). Preaching is a form of tapasya? (indistinct)

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad-gita, the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech,

anudvega-karam vakyam
satyam priya-hitam ca yat
svadhyayabhyasanam caiva
van-mayam tapa ucyate

It's an austerity, tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there?

Prabhupada: (indistinct) everyone. (indistinct)

Pusá¹­a Krsna: But that everything should be done in relationship to Krsna. Then everything will become purified. Hrsikesa hrsikena-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are engaged for Krsna's satisfaction, then they're no longer... The senses are compared to the sharp teeth of (indistinct). (indistinct) sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Krsna's service, the shark teeth, they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Krsna's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation.

Prabhupada: (Sanskrit) Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs. (indistinct) If the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So (indistinct). But if I am sure that his fangs are taken away (indistinct). Senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Krsna consciousness that (Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous.

Devotee: Is it true or not true that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that failure is the pillar of success and (indistinct)?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: I don't know exactly if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada has used this saying....

Prabhupada: What is that?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes.

Prabhupada: Hm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is (indistinct).

Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupada the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Srila Prabhupada, is it possible to forget the past? Srila Prabhupada said, "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan... Basically our experience from the material world should be duḥ;khalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness. (indistinct)

Devotee: So this... It explains also in the Nectar of Instruction that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this (indistinct) again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause (indistinct)?

Pusṭa Krsna: It's called duracara, misbehavior. So atonement, according to Sukadeva Gosvami, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athato brahma jijñasa. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Krsna conscious.

Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: So what is his question?

Pusá¹­a Krsna: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul.

Guest: (indistinct) the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul.

Prabhupada: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.

Devotee: (indistinct) matter.

Prabhupada: Yeah, subtle (?) matter (indistinct).

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Indriyani parany ahur [Bg. 3.42].

Prabhupada: Oh, indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyaḥ; param manaḥ; [Bg. 3.42].

Pusṭa Krsna: Manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheḥ; paratas tu saḥ;.

Prabhupada: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses (indistinct) it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasadam, so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Krsna, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe krsna sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how would he say hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Krsna? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ; krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikunṭha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Manaḥ; krsna-padaravindayoḥ;, fix up your mind in Krsna, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Krsna, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Anyabhilasita-sunyam jñana-karmady-anavrtam [BRS 1.1.11]. Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jñana. Or little more on yoga. Karma, jñana and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jñana. The karmis are working for sense gratification. The jñanis are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Asṭa-siddhi. So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyabhilasa-sunyam, anyabhilasa-sunyam, jñana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Krsna. If you are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmis are grossly, they want something (indistinct) they want nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice (indistinct), So many things. That is karmi life. Jñani, as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyam jagan mithya, this endeavor for all mithya. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they take to the karmi's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmi, jñani, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11]. And then you become happy. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of Krsna. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gita, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is (indistinct). He did not become a karmi, jñani, yogi. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of Krsna. Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Nasṭo mohaḥ; smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan madhusudana.

Pusá¹­a Krsna:

arjuna uvaca
nasṭo mohaḥ; smrtir labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ;
karisye vacanam tava
[Bg. 18.73]

Prabhupada: This is wanted. This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Krsna, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gita was talked, and after learning he says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava." (indistinct) This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Krsna conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jñanis are "No, God." The karmis are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question?

Devotee: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning?

Devotee: (indistinct) interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if...

Prabhupada: So why they should interpret different way?

Guest: What was the question?

Prabhupada: Just... Explain to him.

Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Srila Prabhupada, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupada (indistinct) now in our (indistinct) you can't actually substantiate that God is impersonal, because Krsna is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? (indistinct) So Prabhupada said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Krsna said, literally, as (indistinct).

Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So...

Prabhupada: It is in the Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said, bhagavan uvaca. It is never said Brahman uvaca. (laughter) People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. But in the Bhagavad-gita it is never said Paramatma uvaca. (laughter) Or Brahman uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca! Vyasadeva, He does not say krsna uvaca, because Krsna will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyasadeva) directly says, sri bhagavan uvaca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavan. Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Bhagavan says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging (?) the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture.

Guest: Well, the example is that Sankaracarya, who was of course...

Prabhupada: Sankaracarya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just..."

Guest: On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam.

Prabhupada: No. He is correct in the study. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are sunyavadis. So he said, "No, it is not sunya. That is Brahman. This material world is false, (indistinct)." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said, "No, the material world is false, Brahman is false, brahma satyam jagan mithya. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindam brahmate bhaja govindam.

Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Sankaracarya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Sankaracarya." And of course he did and Sankaracarya started running. So this man said, "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said, "So is my running." (laughter) He said, "So is my running, that's also an illusion."

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Rupanuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupada, that this Krsna consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Krsna consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gita and a few scriptures teach about Krsna but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Krsna's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti.

Prabhupada: No. There are Vedas, there are so many names described. Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If one has not understood Krsna by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas. It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Krsna says vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Krsna, then his labor is useless. Bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. If one is actually jñanavan, then he (indistinct). Sankaracarya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the Vedas, you don't find Krsna's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The actual purpose of studying Vedas means to understand Krsna. If one has not understood Krsna, then srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They have simply labored for nothing.

Guest: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the Vedas. This is something that people have...

Prabhupada: No, Krsna's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jiva Gosvami has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Krsna's name. And this, the best scholar of Vedas, (indistinct) he says, sa bhagavan svayam krsna, Sankaracarya. Then other acaryas they have supported Krsna's teachings, just like Ramanujacarya, and (indistinct) he has quoted Vedic quotation, every sloka. So one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned," (Sanskrit). Everywhere is Krsna's name. But one must be actually scholar in Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end."

Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Ṛg Veda, (indistinct) example of glorifications of Krsna there?

Prabhupada: Everything is glorification of Krsna.

Devotee (3): Whenever Krsna is mentioned in the Vedas, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say, "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Krsna, but Krsna's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, (Sanskrit). "Krsna is the Supreme."

Prabhupada: Krsna says, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Either you accept this Krsna's statement, or you reject Krsna. But He says mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. What do you want more?

Guest: Well, Prabhupadaji, if anyone has gone to Gita and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read Gita.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical...

Prabhupada: Therefore we have concentrated on Gita. This movement—when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Krsna consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Krsna consciousness. We are particularly preaching Krsna's teaching. Krsna is God, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Krsna. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Krsna. That is our (indistinct). (aside:) Yes?

Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gangesvaranandaji, (indistinct) Vedas (indistinct) books that Krsna's name in the Vedas is mentioned.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee: Krsna's name in the Vedas is already there.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: He has clearly (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Otherwise how Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]?

Guest (3): The Mayavadis say that Vedanta is impersonal, and (indistinct) Vedanta...

Prabhupada: You do not know what is Vedanta. (indistinct) In the beginning of Vedanta, athato brahma jijñasa. "Now try to inquire about this Supreme, (indistinct) Brahman." The next verse is janmady asya yataḥ; [SB 1.1.1], Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam is the real explanation of Veda. Brahma-sutra, (indistinct) mahasyam brahma-sutranam vedasya parividyatam (?), this Srimad-Bhagavatam, vedasya parividyatam, (indistinct) avyayam, brahma-sutrasya (?) uvaca, by Vyasadeva himself. Vyasadeva is the writer of Vedanta-sutra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Narada. So to understand Vedanta, you have to study Bhagavatam. He's explained janmady asya [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmady asya yataḥ;. So what is the nature? Janmady asya yataḥ; anvayad itaratas ca... (end)