Prabhupada: The prisoners.... Haridasa Thakura was very well known, so all of them assembled and offered him respect. Haridasa Thakura blessed them, "Stay in this condition." (laughs) So they were surprised, that "We offered respect, and the blessing is that 'Stay in this....' " Then they were explained, " 'Stay in this condition' means your attitude to offer respect to a Vaisnava." That was the intent, not that "You stay in the prison house." Visnu, Vaisnava, offering respect.... [break] ...aradhanam. When Parvati inquired from Lord Siva what is the best form of worship, he advised, visnor aradhanam param: "Oh, to worship Lord Visnu is the best form of..." Then he said, tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam: "And greater than visnor aradhana, Visnu worship, is to worship tadiyanam, anything in connection with Visnu." Anything.... That is Vaisnava. Just like we are worshiping tulasi, tulasi plant. Why tulasi plant? It is a plant only, not even human being. Tadiyanam. Because tulasi is liked by Krsna. Similarly, anything in connection with Visnu, to worship, that is better than Visnu worship.

Kirtanananda: King Prataparudra, he got the clothes of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Kirtanananda: Caitanya Mahaprabhu sent some cloth to King Prataparudra, and he worshiped it just like Visnu.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Hari-sauri: Oh, I've got a handkerchief here, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Visnor aradhanam param.... (japa) [break] ...philosophy is very, very difficult, undoubtedly. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Therefore I wrote that poetry, that "How they'll understand?"

Kirtanananda: Does that mean difficult to understand or difficult to practice?

Prabhupada: It is very difficult to.... Sarva-dharman—everything to give up, except Krsna. It is very difficult. Sarva-dharman. They are proud if they are little rich. And America is very proud. They are trying to accumulate money, and we are trying.... We say, "Give up this nonsense." Is it very easy thing, that "For Krsna consciousness movement we shall give up everything, our attempt to earn money"? Nobody will accept it. "Our industry, our trade, our opulence—everything we shall leave?" But the meaning is that. Yes. Who will take it? Jñanis, yogis, the same thing—"Oh, I am so.... I am great yogi. So many people considers me that I am God, and I shall give up this profession?" Is it possible? Who will do it? Caitanya-caritamrta there is a verse, eta saba chaḍi' ara varnasrama-dharma, akiñcana haña...(?) That's it. Varnasrama, even varnasrama-dharma one has to give up. (japa—break) ...department asked me, "Swamiji, how long you want to stay here?" (laughs) I said.... I thought that "I have got this sponsoring one month, maybe another month. So two months." I thought, "Two months is a very long duration, because I'll not be able to do anything. As soon as I will put my program, they will be: 'Go away, please.' " I was under this impression. "Let me try." That is the subject matter of the poetry, that "I have no hope. Who will accept this, especially in this country, so much engrossed in materialistic way of life? And I shall say, 'Give up everything.' Who will take it?"

Kirtanananda: But they have taken.

Prabhupada: And that is Krsna.

Ramesvara: That's also in the poem.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ramesvara: That it is Krsna...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: ...the supreme mystic.

Prabhupada: Supreme mystic.... "If You like, it is possible; otherwise not possible. From calculation it is impossible." That is the subject matter.

Kirtanananda: But nobody before you even tried.

Prabhupada: They came for some money or some reputation or "England-returned." The Bon Maharaja, this Vivekananda, and all, all these rascals who are coming, that's all. They come for some money and woman, some prestigious position, the material things. For prestigious position, for money, for women, means it is all material. They have no spiritual idea.

Ramesvara: This Reverend Moon, he has started a very big movement among Christians. His philosophy is that the mission of Jesus Christ was to have sex life so that there will be perfect children.

Prabhupada: Just see what nonsense he is.

Ramesvara: And they crucified him before he was married.

Prabhupada: Even Christ.... Eh?

Ramesvara: His philosophy is that Jesus Christ was crucified before he got himself married and had some children—"Therefore I am Jesus Christ again, coming to make children. I am the new Messiaḥ;."

Prabhupada: This rascal is.... And foolish persons are accepting him. How.... No, they are doing that. They are sanctioning homosex, sanctioning abortion. They've lost, Christianity and all.... (japa) This is Beverly Hills? No. Rancho Park.

Ramesvara: This is nearby. [break] Today, Srila Prabhupada, the biggest magazine in the West United States is coming to try to get your interview at 10 o'clock, 10:30 this morning, something like that. It's called Los Angeles Magazine. It's for the West United States.

Prabhupada: [break] And if we don't believe that they have gone to moon planet, they will reject us. They will immediately take as "Oh, these people are crazy." Even if you give sufficient reason or argument, they will not take it. That is their obstinacy.

Ramesvara: They're convinced by the photographs.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ramesvara: They have some photographs of the men in the spacesuits walking around on that other planet.

Kirtanananda: But they are convinced because the scientists have told them. They believe the scientists. They have faith, and the scientists can tell them anything, and they'll believe it.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is.... That is the disease.

Kirtanananda: They have put faith. Everyone has faith. You cannot live without having faith in somebody. So they put their faith in the scientists, and we are saying it is wrong.

Hari-sauri: Nobody could possibly believe that the scientists would cheat them. They think they are very intelligent, honest men.

Prabhupada: No, we have got our faith—in Krsna. Similarly, they have got their faith—in scientists.

Hari-sauri: That article in the last BTG.... Sadaputa, he said, "So what it boils down to is they are putting their faith in chance, and we are putting our faith in God."

Prabhupada: Yes. That is statement of the scientists. Adau sraddha: in everything, faith is the beginning. Adau sraddha. Without faith you cannot make any progress. [break] ...reporter, in 1970, he saw me. I told, "This is all simply childish." He remembers that. Is it not?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is after eight years. Actually it is proved, and still, they.... [break] What is this dome?

Ramesvara: [break] ...street has more banks than any other street in America, Wilshire Boulevard. Everywhere, banks everywhere. [break]

Prabhupada: Wilshire, yes. I remember.... There is a park. Soldiers, there are soldiers in a corner. I used to come to that park. [break] ...this rich.... [break] ...is the costlier quarter in America. [break] ...he's got a house here.

Hari-sauri: George Harrison?

Ramesvara: Yes, also Ravi Shankar.

Prabhupada: He has got a house?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Ravi Shankar has become so rich? [break] ...ago some portion of Calcutta was like this, such greens and houses like that, not very big house. (japa)

Hari-sauri: It's certainly a very opulent area.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are opulent with dogs also. As soon as you walk on the street, so many dogs will bark. (japa) [break] ...park.

Ramesvara: [break] People who live here, whole two blocks...

Prabhupada: Private house.

Ramesvara: This is a richer district.

Hari-sauri: There's a big sign on the gate. It says, "No Trespassing." [break]

Prabhupada: ...patrolling here always to stop trespassing.

Ramesvara: Always living in fear.

Prabhupada: Sada samudvijña-dhiyam asad-grahat. As soon as you accept material things as everything, immediately bhaya. Ahara nidra maithuna bhaya. (japa) [break] ...country, they'll not allow any individual person to live so comfortably. No, illegal. If you have got money, then give it to the government. The ministers will enjoy it. This is democracy. Democracy means "Somehow or other, I capture the government, and whatever money you have got, I snatch it from you, and then I enjoy." This is democracy. Dasyu-dharma. In Bhagavata it is said dasyu-dharma, the business of the rogues. How is that? If I can earn some money and keep it for myself, I have no right? This is communistic idea: "Make everyone poor." Here is police, two cars. Police we saw.

Hari-sauri: They can't raise the standard up, so they bring it all down.

Ramesvara: That's their idea of equality.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ramesvara: That's their idea of equality. All men are equal, so no one should have more money.

Hari-sauri: Make everyone a sudra.

Ramesvara: That's what you wrote in Caitanya-caritamrta, that communism is a movement of sudras.

Prabhupada: Yes, they're sudras.

Hari-sauri: There's a very popular slogan now in Australia.

Prabhupada: Equality.

Hari-sauri: No, "Make the rich pay."

Prabhupada: Oh.

Hari-sauri: They are so much envious of those persons with more money.

Prabhupada: India also, that.... "Make the rich pay."

Hari-sauri: In England also that's the prevalent theme now. That has accounted for the demolishing of the aristocracy in England more than anything, the government heavily taxing them so that anyone with money now is...

Prabhupada: It is finished. In England aristocracy is finished.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: They're all selling their property. They cannot maintain. Even the Queen cannot maintain her establishment, but because it's government.... The Buckingham Palace was not repaired for many years. Last time, when I went there, I saw it is repaired now. Before that, three, four times I went. It is blackish. The stone.... It is made of stone. The stone had become black. That means many years it was not repaired.

Hari-sauri: What they do now if they have some big house in the country and they want to keep it, they have to put it on show during the summer months. They allow people to come, and they charge them so much money to come and look around.

Prabhupada: The Parliament and that.... What is that church?

Hari-sauri: Westminster Abbey?

Prabhupada: Yes. They charge.

Hari-sauri: Guided tour. They cannot live there themselves. They can only live there in the winter.

Prabhupada: They collect very sufficiently. I have seen. Again, inside you go, and a particular section, if you want to see, the another payment. Yes. First of all, entrance fee; then, within that, if you want to see another particular section, then another fee. And they are collecting money. I have seen. Syamasundara took me there.

Hari-sauri: To Westminster Abbey or...?

Prabhupada: Parliament, Westminster, everything.... (japa) They are now statues in Parliament and Westminster. So many statues, you know.

Hari-sauri: Yes. They're very fond of statues there.

Prabhupada: [break] ...European civilization, coming from the Romans, statues also. [break] ...mean civilization means Roman civilization, is it not?

Hari-sauri: Yes. The Roman Empire extended all over there.

Prabhupada: England was under Roman Empire. Normandy. Normandy?

Kirtanananda: That's France.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...these gardener, they're engaged here.

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: He comes a certain period and looks after the garden. (japa) [break] ...are very famous gardener. Unfortunately, in Japan there is no space to make garden.

Kirtanananda: They do everything in miniature.

Prabhupada: Everything. They have got so much intellect, technologists, everything—no land.

Kirtanananda: In material life there is always one thing lacking.

Prabhupada: sat-sanga chaḍi' kainu, asate vilasa, te-karane lagila mora, karma-bandha-phansa: "I have given up reality, and I'm attached to unreality; therefore I am entangled in fruitive activities." Te-karane lagila mora, karma-bandha-phansa. (japa) [break]

Ramesvara: Actually, on Watseka Avenue we own more property than anyone here in Beverly Hills.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Ramesvara: On Watseka Avenue, we have the temple and maybe seven other buildings, so we own more property and buildings than anyone here in Beverly Hills.

Prabhupada: They have only one house—with great difficulty.

Ramesvara: We have the whole block.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] There is law, income tax, supertax, welfare to the..., so many taxes? No, only income tax.

Kirtanananda: No, there are many taxes. Sales tax...

Prabhupada: Sales tax is there. But in India that..., at a stage, the whole amount is taxed.

Kirtanananda: There's an estate tax, an inheritance tax...

Prabhupada: No, no, mean at a stage.... This much, this much, this much.... And at a.... There is a stage-ninety-five percent government's. You keep only five percent.

Ramesvara: In India?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: They even tax you when you die.

Prabhupada: Here?

Hari-sauri: In England when someone dies, a rich man, he loses practically half his property and money and everything...

Ramesvara: Fifty percent.

Hari-sauri: ...just in what they call death duties. When you die, they take all your money away from you.

Ramesvara: That's in America also. If your father dies and he leaves you his wealth, the government will take half of it. You have written in the Fourth Canto that because the government is so expert in taxing, the people are becoming so expert in cheating the government...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: ...to avoid the taxes. So the government is simply training the people how to cheat.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: And then you wrote that one day the people will..., the taxes will become so great that the people will revolt, refuse to pay, and then the government will be finished. There will be chaos. You're giving all these warnings, Srila Prabhupada. You've also warned them about taking the oil from the earth.

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. I think of these things. No, there is analogy, just like when you fly in the sky, you take sufficient petrol in the wings, sufficient, so many thousands of gallons. And if there is no petrol, then you'll fall down. So I theorize these things, (laughs) that these planets are floating in the air on account of petrol. If you finish the petrol stock, then we drop. Analogy. Indirectly, my desire is that "Why you are wasting your time in this way? Your life is short here. Then utilize it for self-realization. What is the use of this civilization, civilization that for artificial necessities of life you waste your whole duration of life and next life you become a cat or dog? Suppose you are successful in this life manufacturing these big, big skyscrapers. Next life, if you become a cockroach in the same house, toilet room.... There is possibility." Krsna..., tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. You have to change your body, and there is no guarantee that you'll have to change in this type of body. Any body. The cockroach is also a body. Therefore they don't believe in the next life.

Ramesvara: You said they have developed so many different weapons, so they must use them.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: They will not waste their time making nuclear bombs and so on without using them.

Prabhupada: That means it is ordained by God that "You have manufactured this, and use it for your destruction." That is nature's way. Film companies, these are?

Hari-sauri: Twentieth Century Fox. It is a very well known film company.

Ramesvara: Movie company. This is that park where we sometimes go. When they have this war it will reduce everything, just finish off all the industries and factories. So everything will be reduced to a primitive stage.

Prabhupada: No, they will again repair.

Ramesvara: Again rebuild everything.

Prabhupada: In Germany.... Just like Germany was finished. The American planes bombed in such a way that Germany was finished, very heavily bombed. One lady in Hamburg, she was showing me one wall, big wall building dismantled, and it has become black on account of bombing. She was showing me how far injustice they have been done.

Ramesvara: So then after the war, nothing will change. System of government, the industries, everything will just be rebuilt.

Prabhupada: They'll try at least. Just like after the Second World War, Germany or England finished. They could not recoup. They are now poverty-stricken.

Ramesvara: Germany?

Prabhupada: Germany is little recouped, but England is finished. Therefore I say India got independence not due to Gandhi. It is due to Hitler. That is my opinion. I have got reason. The Hitler fighting with England made them smashed, so their political power became nil almost, and on this opportunity, Hitler helped Subash Chandra Bose, one of the leaders of India, to organize Indian National Army. This Indian National Army, when attacked, at least made a show of attack from Imphala(?), especially on Calcutta dropped bombs, and the whole Calcutta became vacant. Perhaps myself and a few others remained. I sent my sons.... Of course, daughter was married, but they sent to Navadvipa, Sridhara Maharaja's asrama. My wife refused to go out of Calcutta. She said, "I'll be bombed maybe, but I'll not go out." (laughs) So I had to remain in Calcutta. So I've seen bombing and Calcutta all vacant. And one day I was eating in the evening, at night—immediately bombing. Kachori... I was hungry, (laughs) but the eating finished.

Hari-sauri: It was bombed frequently, or just once or twice?

Prabhupada: Almost daily. But it was meant for bombing the European quarters. So when the Britishers saw that "Now this Subash Bose has organized I.N.A...." I.N.A. was organized by Subash Chandra Bose. Outside India, all the Indians, they contributed money, especially from Singapore. Singapore, Hong Kong, this side..., all the Indians, they contribute sufficiently. And he got men from the fighting Indians soldiers. The Britishers, they were fighting with Indian soldiers, with Germany and Japan and others. So the contract with Hitler and Subash Bose was this, that "All the Indian soldiers which you arrest in the war, please give me them. Then I shall organize." So the soldiers, when they understood they're being arrested—"We shall go to Indian side"—they voluntarily surrendered. So Hitler, all others, Hitler and Japan, Tojo, arrest them and give it to Subash Chandra Bose, and he was organizing in Singapore.

Hari-sauri: He had a large army?

Prabhupada: Large or small, whatever; there was. But England had no soldiers. Whatever they did—fight—with the Indian soldiers, Gurkha and Sikh. Indian money, Indian soldiers, everything Indian—they were fighting. So when the Britishers saw that "The nationalism has come amongst the soldiers. It is not possible to maintain the Empire," they voluntarily gave indepen.... "Better give us good relations, and our business.... Make some agreement. But before departing, make them weak and divide Pakistan and India."

Ramesvara: That the British arranged.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because they are doing these things all in.... Wales.... What is called? Ireland, Germany. That is their business: divide and rule. Before leaving India, immediately they partitioned. Burma was Indian. Ceylon was Indian. So they had already divided.

Hari-sauri: Made them all into separate states.

Prabhupada: Yes. (japa) Now England is finished. There are aristocrat type statues now rolling on the ground. Who takes care? Their, their Lennon? Lennon, John Lennon and George Harrison, they are purchasing big, big palaces. (japa)

Hari-sauri: All the aristocracy, they just go out to work like anyone else.

Prabhupada: The lords are roaming on the street. I have seen many lords. They're ordinary.... Even they haven't got car. The Queen also, just like ordinary, common man. Royal family.

Ramesvara: One day America will be poor like that also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Luxury leads to poverty. When the American becomes too much luxurious, they'll not be able to defend their country. Then it will be finished.

Ramesvara: That is the fear even now, that America has lost their fighting spirit against the Communists.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Vietnam. It is proof. When the Vietnam is attacked, American soldiers, they began to fly, flee away, became afraid. Naturally. They were not soldiers. They have no fighting spirit. By force they have been made soldiers. Let them take to Krsna consciousness. America will be saved. (japa)

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, you said yesterday, or a few days ago, that this movement will go on unimpeded for ten thousand years, so...

Prabhupada: Yes, provided we keep it uncontaminated. You should take this opportunity.

Ramesvara: So after ten years we have gotten so many devotees and so many houses, so I can't imagine how big this movement will be after ten thousand years.

Prabhupada: Yes. You'll get the government.

Ramesvara: The whole world will be delivered?

Prabhupada: Yad yad acarati sresṭhaḥ; [Bg. 3.21]. America will be the best; people will follow. They are already following-skyscraper building, that's all. Any nation in the world, they are all aspiring to have skyscraper buildings. India has done? In Bombay?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Full of skyscraper buildings. Now they are thinking this is opulence, skyscraper building. When you are giving it up, no more skyscraper building, the others are imitating. Just like in this quarter you cannot construct skyscraper building. They don't want it. Now others are imitating: "Let us have skyscraper building like America." (japa)

Ramesvara: This building is only two stories, even though it has three windows.

Prabhupada: No, no, why two story? There is ground floor, first floor, second floor, third floor.

Ramesvara: One of the floors has two windows, top and bottom. But it's just one floor. Someone went inside and looked.

Prabhupada: Oh. Oh, that is not floor. There is no ceiling.

Ramesvara: No, just three steps up.

Prabhupada: Anyway...

Ramesvara: All the instructions for the future-like you said that one day even we will have the government—how to run the government, everything is explained in your books.

Prabhupada: Yes. I think like that. (laughs) Is there mention, "The slaughterhouse must stopped"?

Ramesvara: You've given all the major policies for the future government, Krsna consciousness government.

Prabhupada: Let us hope. (end)