Prabhupada: ...the right side is darkness. (Hindi)

Guest (1) (Indian reporter): Obviously we have selected darkness. That is what we want to do. We want to go into light later on.

Prabhupada: You are requesting something... Veda says, "Come to the light." Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya: "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light."

Guest (2): We want more light.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Tamaso ma jyotir gamaya.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is desirable in human. Otherwise the animals are in darkness. They do not know what is God. But a human being, because he has got this human form of body, he can come to the light. So all the sastras are for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. So if you do not take advantage of the sastras, then you remain in the darkness. This is our position. The light is here. Just like apart from all other sastras, if you take Bhagavad-gita, it is the very brilliant light. It is not that changing. Five thousand years ago Krsna said, what, that is still the same thing. Just like light. Millions of years ago, what was sun, the same sun is there. In the light there is no change. In the darkness there is change. If we do not accept the standard knowledge of Bhagavad-gita, then we shall continue to remain in darkness and there will be no solution of the problems of life. This is our propaganda. Krsna consciousness movement means that we are asking everywhere, all over the world, "You come to this light and be happy." That's it.

Guest (1): Swamiji, tell us something good, this asrama, that you're doing.

Prabhupada: That Mahamsa... Where is Mahamsa? Asrama means an attempt to give some light. That is the difference...

Guest (3): According to us, even in lightness there is darkness.

Prabhupada: No, that is not light. That is called...

Guest (3): There also it can grow from one level to higher level.

Prabhupada: ...abhasa. Abhasa. Just like in the morning there is no full sunshine, but there is some glimpse of light. That is not real light. Real light is full sunshine but before the sun rises fully there is some light. That light and this light different. We have to come to the full light. Then our life will be success. Not partial light. That will not help. The full light you can get from the Supreme Person, Krsna.

Dr. Ramachandra: Jyotisam api taj jyotis tamasaḥ; param ucyate.

Prabhupada: Yes. yes. Yes. So you take light from Krsna. And that is full light, and you'll be happy. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. Don't be satisfied with glimpse of light. Take full light. And that is open to everyone just like the sunshine is open to everyone. If you want to remain in the darkness, in the room, that is your business but you come to the... You can come to the full sunlight. That you can do. Where is the difficulty? Krsna is open to everyone. He is speaking everything openly. There is no secret mantra. Everything is there. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam. This is open to everyone. Where is the difficulty? Unless we deny to accept Krsna's instruction, there is no secret. Everything is open. But our leaders and scholars, they do not like to take Krsna's instruction as it is. We are therefore insisting, we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, no interpretation. They say, "Why not interpretation?" That is the defect. We say no interpretation. You take Krsna as it is, that's all. Then your life is successful.

Guest (2): No interpretation is it?

Prabhupada: What interpretation you can give? He is authority and what you are? You can give interpretation?

Guest (1): It is self yoga necessity (?).

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Simply... Yes. No, Krsna... Krsna says, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more superior authority, more superior authority than Krsna. And when Krsna was present on this earth, He proved it. There was nobody superior than Him. That's a fact. Still He is superior. His Bhagavad-gita is being studied all over the world with respect, determination, because He is still superior. That is superior.

Dr. Ramachandra:

athava bahunaitena
kim jñatena tavarjuna
visṭabhyaham idam krtsnam
ekamsena sthito jagat
[Bg. 10.42]

Prabhupada: And we are not changing. Because five thousand years have passed therefore, we have to make some additional, no.

Guest (1): Then why should there be so many commentaries upon it?

Prabhupada: They are rascaldom, that's all. Simple word, rascaldom.

Devotee: Rascaldom.

Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot interpret on the words of God. You cannot interpret. Just like law. There is law by the government. You cannot interpret in your own way. You have to accept it. "Keep to the right"—no interpretation. You must keep to the right. That is law. If you say, "What is wrong if I go to the left?" Actually if one goes to the left, it is not very... But you cannot do it. As soon as you do it, you are criminal. You'll be punished. That is law. The dharma means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. This is dharma. If you want a general definition of dharma, or religion, that is given in the sastra that "Dharma means the law given by God." That is dharma. You cannot manufacture dharma. And because we are manufacturing so many dharmas, mental concoctions, there is no peace. And Krsna therefore says that "You give up this rascaldom." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66].

Dr. Ramachandra: Tasmac chastram pramanam te...

Prabhupada: The sastra means what is spoken by God and His representative. That's all. That is sastra. Unless Krsna accepts sastra, how He saying like that? Tasmac chastram pramanam te. Sastra should be...

Dr. Ramachandra: Some sastras must be existing before...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Ramachandra: Some sastras after, existing before Krsna and Arjuna.

Prabhupada: Sastra? Sastra means it is authorized. Just like Bhagavad-gita is sastra because it is spoken by Krsna, the supreme authority. Therefore all the acaryas, they accept it. Still the acarya-sampradayas are there. Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Sankara, they accept all this. And at the time of...

Guest (2): Do you accept the supremacy of the Vedas, veda-pramanam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ; [Bg. 15.15]. And if you do not understand Krsna, then you do not know what is Veda. Your knowledge of Vedas will be accepted when you understand Krsna. So if you do not know what Krsna, then what is the use of taking so much trouble to study Vedas? You do not know anything. Bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].

Dr. Ramachandra: Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti.

Prabhupada: Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti. That is knowledge.

Dr. Ramachandra: Sa mahatma.

Prabhupada: Sa mahatma. If you do not know vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], srama eva hi kevalam: [SB 1.2.8] simply you have labored hard. That's all. You have gained nothing. And if you understood Vasudeva, then you understood everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñate sarvam idam vijñatam bhavati.

Dr. Ramachandra: How do you explain vrsninam vasudevo 'smi?

Prabhupada: Yes, He's the chief of everything. Aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ; [Bg. 10.8]. That is the... He is the origin of everything. Mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate. If you know the root, then you know the whole tree, where to water. If you water the root, so it, water goes. It goes to the highest twigs. You haven't got to take trouble to go to the up to pour water. You pour water in the root. This is the way.

Guest (1): Once He says, vasudevaḥ; sarvam, and again He says, vrsninam vasudevo 'smi. So the meaning of that word is...

Prabhupada: So does it mean that He is not sarvam? One who does not understand vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], particular, "It is also vasudeva. It is also vasudeva. It is also vasudeva," that is called less intelligent. Otherwise one who is intelligent, he'll under..., vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti: [Bg. 7.19] "Everything is vasudeva." Sa mahatma. But if he has no intelligence, then "I am this, I am God. I am Krsna." The same example, just like here is a tree. If I say, "The root, you pour water," here is everything. Otherwise this is also tree, the leaf is also tree, the twig also tree, the flower is also tree... You go on like that. They are of the same value. But if one is intelligent, he will understand, "Here is everything," vasudevaḥ; sarvam, the root. That's all. What is that?

Devotee: I was just telling this gentleman that the reporters may have some other questions also.

Prabhupada: Then that is his wish. (pause) This is our movement.

Guest (4): Through meditation you attain mukti?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (4): Through meditation ultimately you attain Him.

Prabhupada: What do you mean by meditation?

Guest (4): I don't know, but normally it is understood to be...

Prabhupada: Then why you are talking of meditation?

Guest (4): Normally as it is understood by.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest (4): Concentration.

Prabhupada: Which concentration? What is the subject?

Guest (4): It can be from man to man, from... One may do it on Krsna and one may do it on...

Prabhupada: That is not standard. If meditation is according to one's whims, that is not meditation.

Guest (4): But it depends upon the faith.

Prabhupada: According to sastra, meditation means to meditate upon God. That is meditation. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginaḥ; [SB 12.13.1]. Yoginaḥ;, those who are yogis, they meditate upon the form of the Lord.

Guest (4): So through that, you...

Prabhupada: That is meditation.

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupada: Other things, they have manufactured concoctions.

Guest (4): Maybe, but through that, you say you attain God, is it?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest (4): You attain God or what is the concept?

Prabhupada: Yes. Meditation means Krsna. He says meditation. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;: "Just concentrate your mind upon Me." This is meditation.

Guest (4): Then, in due course of time, do you see Him? Or in what form?

Prabhupada: Yes, immediately you see Him. Krsna's picture is there. Krsna's picture and Krsna is not different. So if you concentrate upon Krsna, you immediately see Him.

Guest (4): You see Him.

Prabhupada: Yes, immediately. But if you think Krsna has no form, then it is difficult. Immediately. Now He says, man-manaḥ;. He personally says, man-manaḥ;, so where is the difficulty?

Guest (4): No, the form of the light, you see or...?

Prabhupada: Why light? With two hands, two legs, He is speaking, man-manaḥ;: "Me." Why light? Light is another feature of His existence, but He says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Therefore we are presenting. Mam evaisyasi asamsayaḥ; [Bg. 18.65].

Guest (4): In other words, do mean to say that you see Him in three dimensions?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (4): You see Him in three dimensions?

Prabhupada: Unlimited dimension. Three dimension for you because You cannot see Him. Otherwise He is unlimited. That's it. But you cannot see unlimited. That is His mercy, that He presents Himself before you in three dimension because you have no eyes to see Him in His unlimited dimension. That is not possible. So it is His mercy. But He is not limited with three dimensions.

Guest (4): No, no, I'm not saying He is limited. As a man sees.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he is limited...

Guest (4): As the man's concentration through which progresses, how, in what forms he goes on seeing Him? That is what my question is.

Prabhupada: Therefore question is just simplified, that... Therefore we establish temple: "Here is Krsna." That's all. If you say that "Krsna is all pervading. Why shall I come to the temple?" And why not in the temple if He's all-pervading? But you say, "No, I am not going to see in the temple. I shall see outside in the sky." Then you don't see. Otherwise Krsna is everywhere; why not in the temple? What is that argument? He is here also. But according to my capacity I can see temple, Krsna, very easily. So Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;. You come daily to the temple and see Him and think of Him. There is no...

Mahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, may I introduce the project over here?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mahamsa: May I introduce the press to the project over here?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: So by Krsna's grace we have been given this plot of land which is 565 acres exactly, in two villages, that is, Dublipur(?) and Kanaipali villages. Lands are situated in the jurisdiction of these...

Guest (5): Dublipur(?) and what is the other?

Mahamsa: Kanaipali. And the lands were originally in the Venkateshvara Gorakshini Trust, and they have transferred these lands to ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust under the chairmanship of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. So our interest here is to... This area, the whole area here, is very dry. Although there is potency of..., there is potential for tapping water, it has been left dry and unused just like so much land all over. You can see. There is so much land which is unused, vacant, just like this. So we have been given this piece of land. We want to set an example of how such wasted land can be, with proper management and organization, it can be made usable to grow food, abundant food grains and fruits and to feed unlimited...

Prabhupada: And offer them to Krsna and distribute prasadam.

Mahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is our mission. We are already giving prasadam daily in the evening. There is no question of making profit.

Guest (5): So anyone can come and live here.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Guest (5): Irrespective of religion...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Actually that is happening. Somebody has come from Germany, somebody from (indistinct), somebody Australia, somebody...

Guest (6): And even if he doesn't subscribe the siksa to which you want them to. Even those who don't subscribe to...

Prabhupada: Then how he can live? If he does not live like us, then how he can live?

Guest (6): That is his question. Supposing he doesn't subscribe, still will he be allowed to come and live?

Prabhupada: No, no, if he lives, then he will subscribe. Sangat sañjayate kamaḥ;. If you associate with good men you become a good man. If you associate with drunkard, you become drunkard. So we are giving the chance. Associate with us and you'll be devotee. That is becoming. So we are giving that chance. Come and live with us.

Guest (6): And what are the other point of stress in temples...?

Mahamsa: Yes. To facilitate a harmonious Krsna conscious community we will have all facilities. There will be temples.

Prabhupada: Let them come here, live peacefully, eat sumptuously, get all the other necessities of life and become Krsna conscious. This is our... And we have no discrimination, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. No. We have got many Christians, many Jews, many Hindus, many Muslims, many Africans. They are taking to Krsna consciousness.

Guest (5): Even in India, Muslims are taking to Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: Well, Muslim India or same India, those who are intelligent, they are taking.

Guest (5): In this country also they have taken?

Prabhupada: Yes. Some of the Pakistanis, they have taken. Of course, he is living in foreign country. One Dr. Ramjan (?), he is the professor in Portland. He is my disciple. I have given him the name, Ramarañjana from Ramjan.

Guest (3): He has renounced his religion of Islam.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is there. Yes. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. That is wanted.

Guest (3): Can you repeat his name, please?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (3): Can you give his name?

Prabhupada: I said, Ramjan, Dr. Ramjan, in Portland University.

Mahamsa: Also Atreya Ṛsi.

Prabhupada: Ah, Atreya Ṛsi, yes. He is Iranian.

Dr. Ramachandra: He is also Muslim?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Many Iranians, they have become our devotees. We have got a temple in Tehran.

Devotee: In Hyderabad there is Muslim. He is a life member.

Prabhupada: No, that, life member... God consciousness... Who will deny God? It is a science. So we are teaching the science, not the bigotry, "my God, your God." God is one. Gold is gold. Gold does not become Hindu gold, Muslim gold, or Christian gold. Anywhere gold is available, it is gold. That is our definition. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmaḥ;. That is highest, topmost type of religion, yato bhaktir adhoksaje, where one can learn how to love God, that's all. That is wanted. We are teaching that. There is no question of "this God, that God." God is one. You just practice how to love Him. Then your religion is first-class.

Guest (5): But why give names to Him? Why give names to that God?

Prabhupada: No name. When I say, yato bhaktir adhoksaje, this is not name. Adhoksaja means "who is beyond your sense perception."

Guest (5): It can be Allah, Christ, even Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. But you must know what is meaning of God. That's all. His name... Just like water. You say, "water," he says, pani, he says, autuk (?). So water is water. Similarly, you must know what is God. Name does not matter. But Krsna is the perfect name, Krsna, according to Sanskrit, all-attractive. The God must be all-attractive; otherwise how He is God? That is the perfect name. Now, if you want to give another name we have no objection. There are hundreds and thousands of names, whatever you like. But it must be God's name. You must understand what is God. Then it is perfect. (aside:) Get on this light. It is scientific. It is not a religious sentiment. Why they should manufacture God? God is God. Gold is gold. And God definition is there in the Vedic literature.

aisvaryasya samagrasya
viryasya yasasaḥ; sriyaḥ;
jñana-vairagyayos caiva
sannam iti bhaga...
(Visnu Purana 6.5.47)

Bhagavan. These are the bhagas, opulences. One who possesses all these opulences, He is God, Bhagavan. Asty arthe vatup.(?) So all opulences. God is not shortage of opulence. All opulences. All the riches. Bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. This is God. He is the proprietor of everything. So unless you accept this formula, how you get conception of God? God is not a proprietor of three bighas of land. Here is God, sarva-loka-mahesvaram. That is God. God is not limited. He is unlimited. I can say I have got lakh of rupees, you can say you have got crore of rupees, but God says, "I am the proprietor of all the riches." That we cannot say. That is God's wealth. And because He is the proprietor, He is the enjoyer, supreme enjoyer, bhokta. But we are manufacturing different bhoktas; therefore there is controversy. If we accept "God is bhokta; we are simply dependent on Him," then the whole question is solved. The United Nation is the... [break] Yes. God says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. He never said, mamsam din mam mamsam.(?) (laughter) If you are God conscious, then you must give. Suppose you are here. If I invite you, then I'll ask you, "Sir, how can I serve you?" If you say, "Give me this kind of food," then that is real service. And you do not like something, and if I say, "Oh, this flesh is very nice. You take it," is that service? God demands this. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati. So we are God's servant. We are giving with these groups of food. And after He's eating, we are taking. We are servant. We cannot say, "My dear master, I like this flesh. You take it." That is not service. So therefore fool has to do everything because God wants it. And if you say, "God is nirakara. He has no mouth, no head, tail," then you can manufacture. But here God says.

Guest (6): In order to establish the asrama will you be spending part of the year here?

Prabhupada: Yes, I have got so many centers that if I stay in each center three days, the whole year is finished. What can be done?

Guest (5): Swamiji, how many asramas and things you have?

Prabhupada: 102, big, big asramas. And we are feeding twenty thousand men daily without any income. The God sends. Yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [Bg. 9.22]. We are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month in New York and similarly other centers.

Guest (6): Twelve lakhs also in Delhi center only?

Prabhupada: New York. New York.

Guest (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (5): Where do you get these funds?

Prabhupada: God sends.

Guest (5): God?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (5): But he's not sending funds, the god, planning commissioner.

Prabhupada: Because he is not devotee. How He'll send? You feed your son, not the outsider.

Guest (5): But God doesn't discriminate.

Prabhupada: So that, general food is there, but special, special mercy, is for the devotee. Just like you have got sympathy for all the children, but you have got special sympathy for your own children.

Guest (4): How many asramas do you have in India?

Prabhupada: India, I have got about six, seven.

Devotee: Eight. Eight.

Prabhupada: Eight. Out of 102, in India I have got only eight. In America we have got forty centers.

Hari-sauri: Fifty with the farms.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hari-sauri: Fifty, more than fifty, with the farms.

Prabhupada: Farms.

Guest (3): Fifty, five zero.

Guest (5): Yes, five zero.

Prabhupada: No, in America. We have got farms like this. They are very successful. They are eating fresh vegetables, fresh grains and milk, and chanting. The temple is there. They have left the city life. So I want to organize that here also. We have already one in Navadvipa. The devotees are there. They are having their own cloth, own food, own milk, residence, and chanting. That's all.

Guest (3): Total membership for around the world?

Prabhupada: Total membership is practically unlimited because we are now getting opposition, so... But actually dedicated life, about ten thousand like these boys.

Guest (5): What's going to be the name of this asrama?

Prabhupada: It is already told. It is ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust.

Guest (5): The name of the trust will be the name of the asrama.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: New Naimisaranya?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hari-sauri: New Naimisaranya?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is secondary, but legal is...

Dr. Ramachandra: Shall we go now?

Mahamsa: I'll take them around.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Show them. Thank you very much. [break]

Guest (8): Mr. Patel?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (8): Did he invite you or...?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (8): Any idea of the topics?

Prabhupada: About Bhagavad-gita. Some of them, they are a little surprised how I have alone spread this Krsna consciousness all over the world and all the yogis and swamis, they could not rise, combined together. That is his little surprise.

Guest (8): Did it surprise Bhave?

Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise why he is inviting me? He could not do.

Guest (8): And Swamiji, when you are meeting Bhave?

Prabhupada: Eighteenth. Not only him, but there are so many swamis. They are also going but not a single Krsna devotee they could turn. That's a fact. For the last two hundred years, that's a fact. You cannot deny the fact. But within ten years we have got so many centers and so many. That is little surprising.

Guest (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Krsna has said. Krsna says, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection."

Guest (8): They should be given?

Prabhupada: Given protection. If Krsna says, go-raksya... He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow.

Guest (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to expose of the body?

Prabhupada: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the camaras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters, that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?"

Guest (9): So you support actually government ban of slaughter.

Prabhupada: Certainly.

Guest (9): After the cow is dead, if the flesh is taken, it is...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (9): You have no objection.

Prabhupada: No. The vultures, they live on the cow's flesh, so what objection we have got? We don't... We say, "Don't kill."

Guest (9): After the natural death, not slaughter.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. If they are... Now you can do whatever you like. Our philosophy...

Guest (9): It is only ten-year-old movement.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (9): It started in...

Prabhupada: It started in actually 1967. But the preliminary arrangement was made from 1965. Two years I had spent for making the suitable ground.

Guest (9): Obviously the first, when you started in the United States.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (9): The first asrama.

Prabhupada: Yes. New York.

Guest (9): And that was in '67.

Prabhupada: Yes. It was registered in..., by at the end of '66, July, '66, and then it took some time to find out some place. So in '67 I found out some place.

Guest (9): But you don't have an overall budget of all these 102 asramas.

Prabhupada: I have my book trust. The daily collection of book trust is five to six lakhs of rupees. Daily.

Guest (9): Daily. Oh, book trust. Oh, by the sale of books.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And I have asked them, "Fifty percent, you print books again, and fifty percent, you spend." That's all. Same thing.

Guest (9): Spend on what?

Prabhupada: Spend for this purpose, propagation. That is my mi... And if I would have taken some royalty, then my daily income would have been not less than 75,000 per day.

Guest (9): After income tax, little would be left.

Prabhupada: There is no income tax. We are charity.

Guest (9): 75,000 daily, you said.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because five to six lakhs daily collection. If I take minimum fifteen percent, what it comes to? Big, big authors, they get twenty-five percent.

Guest (9): But one gentleman... I think in this temple... Some of your books are, rather, prohibiting the cost.

Prabhupada: Yes, this was meant for the outside. Because our countrymen, they are learned, they don't require. They are so learned, they don't require anybody. Therefore it is prohibited. Better they do not take it. Otherwise they will misinterpret. That's all. Their only business is misinterpret. Therefore the prohibited price.

Guest (9): There is something which is difficult to make them understand.

Prabhupada: Therefore better they do not take it.

Guest (9): It's easy to go in the virgin soil.

Prabhupada: That means they do not understand what is the meaning of sastra. They want to interpret sastra in their own way. That is the difficulty. Big, big person...

Guest (9): Real testing would be only in India in that case.

Prabhupada: No, Krsna does not speak for Indians. He is for everyone.

Guest (9): The sections of your movement accept in that sense.

Prabhupada: No, they have given up. They have purposefully given up, that "This religion and sastra has killed our nation. Better give it up. Throw it in the water." This is the leaders' plea. Therefore they are changing. They have altogether rejected this.

Indian reporter: No, they don't reject. They give religious freedom.

Prabhupada: What is freedom? That "Whatever you like, you do."

Indian reporter: No, not that.

Prabhupada: So then what is freedom?

Indian reporter: Whichever religion I like, I am free to follow it.

Prabhupada: This freedom means you can manufacture your own religion. And this is freedom. They want this freedom, that you can manufacture. Yato mata tato patha, as the Ramakrishna Mission says, that "You can manufacture your own way of religion."

Dr. Ramachandra: Somebody said religion is the opium of the masses.

Prabhupada: Yes, they will say.

Dr. Ramachandra: That is... They trained us.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Ramachandra: I think you're right in saying that the government has rejected it, in that sense.

Prabhupada: But they do not know what is religion. That is the difficulty. Religion is here. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. This is religion.

Guest (9): Recently a political party also has alleged that ISKCON temples have become abode of the CIA agents.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (9): What do you say for it?

Prabhupada: We are detecting who is irreligious. That's all. That is our business.

Guest (3): They are detecting who is irreligious.

Prabhupada: He is going on in the name of religion, but he does not know what is religion. So that we are detecting. You can say like that. This is our business.

Guest (3): It was an allegation by an important...

Prabhupada: It is allegation. And they are so fools that the Americans, they have come here to become Vaisnava and starvation and they have become religious. They have no food there, and they have come to me and they have no dress, they have... And this boy is English boy. He is giving me massage as if he's a poor man's son. This is... Is he poor man's son? Why he is giving massage? We are Indian, poor Indian. He is not in need of money. He even buys his own cloth. The other day I was chastising him, "Why you are purchasing? You take." "No, I have got money." Just see. This is their position.

Dr. Ramachandra: May we take leave?

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Yes. (Hindi—jokes about CIA) (laughter)

Dr. Ramachandra: This is wild allegation.

Prabhupada: It is no reason. (Hindi) As if they have no money to go to the hotel.

Dr. Ramachandra: In India everything is after CIA now.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Ramachandra: Everything is after CIA.

Prabhupada: And in Parliament it has been denied. Rather, Home Member said that "We have no information that they are CIA." Parliament challenged, "What steps you are going to take?" And "No step. There is no information." They are afraid of the American government because of this Bangladesh affair. And otherwise government appreciates this movement. But because the Americans are there they think, "Some may do something," in this way. Yes. But there is no such chance. They are all devotees. They have nothing to do...

Dr. Ramachandra: This is a purely religious movement.

Prabhupada: That is right. They have nothing to do with politics. And if they found any politics, they can hang me. I shall go.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am doctor from Hyderabad, so I wanted to pay my respects to you.

Prabhupada: Oh. Thank you very much.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am eye specialist practicing in Hyderabad.

Prabhupada: You are very qualified.

Dr. Ramachandra: With your grace. So I have been thinking of meeting you for a long time, and when I was told you are leaving tomorrow, then I said I would come and pay my respects to you.

Prabhupada: Very good. Very good. Thank you.

Dr. Ramachandra: It's our luck that I could meet you. You are a great leader of, religious leader, you see, international. And you belong to order of the Caitanya Maṭha.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Ramachandra: It's a great bhakti movement. So any services I am prepared to give for the asrama, with your...

Prabhupada: (aside:) So keep this card. The Dr. Ramachandra is ready.

Dr. Ramachandra: I am on telephone also.

Prabhupada: So any help you want, we'll give. It is very nice. (Hindi)

Dr. Ramachandra: I only want that your movement should utilize my services because I believe service to mankind is service to God.

Prabhupada: No, no, service to God is service to mankind. If you pour water in the root, then it is service to the tree. And if you pour water on the leaf, then nobody is served. Everything will be dry, that's all. That is imperfect service. If you have got realization of God, why should you give only human being service? Why not tiger? He is also... Krsna says, "They are also My sons." That means you discriminate. That is not that... Father will be satisfied when all the sons are given, not partial, not partial. Suppose I have got five children. If you give service to one children, so I'll ask that "Why not other children?" Naturally.

Dr. Ramachandra: Discrimination comes.

Prabhupada: Discrimination comes. So if you have realized God, then you must be learned. Panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18].

Dr. Ramachandra: Suni caiva sva-pake ca panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18].

Prabhupada: Why you make distinction, daridra-narayana? Why not dhani-narayana? If Narayana is everywhere, why not dhani? So our vision is either he is dhani or daridra, he is blind because he does not know God.

Dr. Ramachandra: You want to give light.

Prabhupada: That's all. We do not discriminate in that way. We discriminate in this way, that "Here is a man who knows about God, and here is a man who does not know."

Dr. Ramachandra: Any service for asrama, I am volunteering, sir.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Service... So long we have got this body, we require your service. We have got the eyes. Naturally...

Dr. Ramachandra: So you can tell your disciples

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. So take. He's so kind. That's it. (end)