Prabhupada: ...position is if you can get a bungalow like this, and two cars, good wife, then life is successful. Is it not?

Kartikeya: Yes.

Prabhupada: "Never mind I am going to be a dog next life."

Kartikeya: They are not knowing anything today. They continue to live as it is.

Prabhupada: Sreyaḥ;, preyaḥ;, immediate. This is Western civilization. Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. (Hindi) In the material world, even in the position of Indra, king of heaven, he has got also so many problems. Is there any temple?

Kartikeya: Yes. Siva temple.

Prabhupada: Newly constructed?

Kartikeya: No, it is quite old, but they go on adding small buildings for the public hall and all those. Suppose you have to have some program. They can give us a hall for marriage and for...

Harikesa: This is where we had the panḍal in 1972?

Kartikeya: No, it was a little bit on the other side. It was very near to this place.

Harikesa: Stayed in Nasi? (?)

Kartikeya: Ah, you stayed here.

Prabhupada: We shall go this way?

Kartikeya: You can go in the garden.

Prabhupada: [break] He is going out of station? [break] ...such parks as in America.

Kartikeya: No. They are going out

Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...erly kept. [break] This is the condition of every city. In America also this. This is artificial living. It cannot go on very nicely. [break] ...description of nice city in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, but we don't get any information of municipality. And big, big lakes in the city.

Brahmananda: Nice parks.

Prabhupada: Park and lake. [break] ...if Upendra comes, he will do?

Yasomatinandana: I was just thinking that he might only change his visa.

Gopala Krsna: He could get an extension. For every American, for three-month visa, then you apply for an extension. You can stay for maximum of six months. But then we can replace as more devotees come. Rupanuga wrote that ten devotees are on the way from America. As more devotees come, then we can replace.

Yasomatinandana: In India...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Yasomatinandana: Upendra has come to India only for a few months, so it might take a little while to get used to situation here. And some boys are here who are already two, three years in India. They know how to do it. And again, if he has to go in a few months...

Gopala Krsna: It's very difficult at the moment, Srila Prabhupada. If we have that choice, then I humbly say we not open the Ahmedabad temple now because... At other temples, like Calcutta, which have (unclear) and which are in a very critical situation because I haven't given them any men...

Prabhupada: [break] You require one man to your selection. So nobody will stay. Everyone has to go. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna... [break] The Ahmedabad people cannot maintain this park. How they will maintain their center? And you are not making good life members? Then?

Yasomatinandana: These are only few days that they have started making... Last time we came they made eight members in five weeks.

Prabhupada: Members are made after the festival.

Gopala Krsna: (unclear)

Yasomatinandana: My point is this, that people are very attracted to foreigners. If there is one good foreigner, then they will be attracted.

Prabhupada: Then why do you discriminate, this foreigner to that foreigner?

Yasomatinandana: I don't mind anybody. Whatever you say is all right. But I was just thinking like this because if somebody's going to come for a month, two months, then go, he might not put his heart.

Prabhupada: That is the position of everyone. When they will go away, there is no certainty. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Rama... Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Hare Krsna. (Hindi) You are student? You are student? Somebody suggested some meeting here? Yesterday.

Kartikeya: No, that gentleman was there at seven o'clock.

Harikesa: That man passed us and just kept on walking with his friends. Just when we were coming here, the same man just kept on walking.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Gerau? Gerau? What is that Gerau? Gerau? You know Gerau? Naxalite?

Indian man (2): These are all important things. It is not in our concept. Even a small man, from the starvation, can stay in a hut, inside a bungalow. There the people are making delicious food. They'll starve and die. How? Because they won't give (unclear). It is not because they are taught by some gurus or... Not like that. They are themselves (unclear)

Indian man (3): Good and bad go together.

Indian man (2): These are other things.

Indian man (3): It is everywhere.

Indian man (2): But I am talking of good only.

Indian man (3): Satya... (Hindi)

Prabhupada: [break] ...is not God?

Indian man (3): Lord Krsna is not God.

Indian man (2): According to him.

Indian man (3): Lord Krsna was the greatest man ever born. He was not God.

Indian man (2): You see, he has got the principles of Arya-samaj. Because he is... "Everybody is God." That is his... They are brainwashed. Brainwash is there.

Prabhupada: What is God? Let us have, understand.

Indian man (3): God has no form.

Prabhupada: Why?

Indian man (3): Why? Because that is a principle.

Prabhupada: Why?

Indian man (3): That's the principle.

Prabhupada: That is your principle.

Indian man (3): He has given all the principles and these principles they taught us...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. You say God has no form.

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: That is your principle, not others'. You cannot say that is the principle. That is your principle.

Indian man (3): But, sir, there are certain principles laid down.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Indian man (3): And He Himself also cannot break those principles.

Prabhupada: What is this principle? You have got form, and God has no form?

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: What God has done, fault?

Indian man (3): If He will take form, then He is just a...

Prabhupada: That is your word.

Indian man (2): That is what we are.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is your word.

Indian man (2): According to philosophy. It is not my philosophy...

Prabhupada: Yes, it is your philosophy.

Indian man (2): It is not my philosophy.

Prabhupada: Because just like you say, "God has no form," we say, "God has form." That is your philosophy.

Indian man (3): Then we have to find out.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then we have to discuss whether God has form or no form. That will be philosophy. That will be philosophy. If you say, "God has no form," if I say, "God has form," then I don't fol...

Indian man (3): God is sarva-vyapaka. He cannot be sarva-vyapaka if He takes form.

Prabhupada: No, that is your thinking. You do not know what is meant by sarva-vyapaka.

Indian man (4): Sarva-vyapaka means everywhere

Prabhupada: That you do not know how... Just like the sun is sarva-vyapaka. Is it not?

Indian man (3): What is that?

Prabhupada: Sun, the sunshine, yes, it is... We call now it is day. Just hear. This is day because the sunlight is there. At night we don't say it is day. Is it not?

Indian man (3): "We" means actually...

Prabhupada: Any of... Every one of us.

Indian man (3): When we don't see, then we say that it is not there.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun is not... Sun, of course, is there, but light is not there.

Prabhupada: Hear. The light... As soon as the light is there, you understand the sun is there. Is it not?

Indian man (3): Yes, sun is there.

Prabhupada: Wherefrom the light is coming? From the sun. But you see the sun has form. So from the form the light is coming. So the light is sarva-vyapaka

Indian man (3): If it is sarva-vyapaka...

Prabhupada: Let me finish. Light is sarva-vyapaka.

Indian man (3): But if there is some obstruction, then it cannot...

Prabhupada: We have no question of obstruction. Even there is obstruction...

Indian man (2): Obstruction will be by you only.

Indian man (3): Not by me only. (laughter) No, not by me.

Indian man (2): What is the independence mean? You can go up to Him.

Prabhupada: Just see. Light is there. If you close your eyes there is no light. That is another thing. But light is there. Everyone understand now it is day.

Indian man (3): That light is from God.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun has no...

Indian man (2): Let him finish.

Prabhupada: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"—I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyapaka. Sarva-vyapaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyapaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, it has got a form. So the sarva-vyapaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Krsna.

Indian man (3): But what is that sun?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva-vyapaka-prakasa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakasa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyapaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Krsna.

Indian man (3): Coming, right. But that has no form.

Prabhupada: Why no form? You can see.

Indian man (3): But you see the mat..., a material.

Prabhupada: It is a matter... You have no idea without matter. How you can say of spirit? You have no idea.

Indian man (3): God is not matter.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot...

Indian man (3): This is not a direct...

Prabhupada: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva-vyapaka. Why? Sarva-vyapaka... He can be... You are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here; you are not sarva-vyapaka. You are vyapaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you.

Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is your defect.

Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is...

Prabhupada: Aiye aiye. That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence.

Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God.

Prabhupada: Then... I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva-vyapaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyapaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point.

Indian man (3): Sun is localized, but what is sun, first of all? Sun is a creation of God.

Yasomatinandana: He's giving an example.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. If creation of God can act like this, that it...

Indian man (3): Creation of God means some matter.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right.

Indian man (3): Now, God has no matter.

Prabhupada: That's all right. You see, God... If creation of God can act like this, that he is localized, at the same time he is sarva-vyapaka and God cannot be localized and sarva-vyapaka?

Indian man (3): How can God be localized?

Prabhupada: Then God is under your rule?

Indian man (3): No, sir. Not under my rule. It is His rule that He...

Prabhupada: No, no. We can see the creation of God. It is localized, at the same time sarva-vyapaka. And God, according to him, cannot be localized. He is simply sarva-vyapaka. Why? Why? The creator can create something that he is localized, at the same time sarva-vyapaka, and the creator cannot be localized and at the same time sarva-vyapaka?

Indian man (3): Sir, if there is...

Prabhupada: No, first of all let us settle this.

Indian man (2): First of all let us settle this one thing

Prabhupada: Settle this. I create something which has got so power that it is localized, at the same time sarva-vyapaka. And I myself, I cannot be sarva-vyapaka. What is this logic?

Indian man (3): The sun rays are not actually... When there is hindrance, it cannot be on the other side.

Prabhupada: No, hin... There is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing.

Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swamiji, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group, believe that world is formless. Some say world has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you...?

Prabhupada: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is... We learn from sastra,

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattva yaj jñanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]

The Absolute Truth is manifested in three ways: impersonal Brahman, and all-pervading Paramatma, and Personality of Godhead-brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate—but they are one and the same. This is the verdict of the sastra. So we can understand from this example that the sun is localized. Everyone can see. At the same time, sunshine is all-pervading, and within the sun globe there is a predominating deity. He is a person. Similarly, originally God is person, and then, when He expands, all-pervasive, that is Paramatma. And when He expands by His energy, that is Brahman. This is understanding. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti. Now somebody, they finish their business by realizing the impersonal Brahman, and somebody finishes his business by realizing the localized Paramatma, yogis. Jñanis, yogis. And the bhaktas, they come to the real, original source of everything, Krsna. That is the difference.

Indian man (4): Swamiji, I want to question whether the Krsna consciousness is the same type of consciousness which is experienced by the devotees as that divine type of consciousness. Is it a divine consciousness?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness means divine. Krsna means divine. Krsna means divine.

Indian man (4): So that is the same.

Prabhupada: But foolish people think Krsna as ordinary man. Avajananti mam muḍhaḥ; [Bg. 9.11]. Only muḍhas take Krsna as ordinary man. Otherwise Krsna is always His complete spirit.

Indian man (4): We like His smiling face too much, Lord Krsna's smiling face, always smiling. All forms of God we have seen, but His...

Prabhupada: Krsna is always smiling because Krsna is anandamayo abhyasat. That is the feature of God. He is anandamaya.

Indian man (4): But (unclear) even in Mahabharata at the time of chariot, while sitting on the chariot of Arjuna, He was always smiling. There was a lot of battle going on, but He never lost His...

Prabhupada: Temper.

Indian man (4): Temper.

Indian man (5): Yes. How do you think about somebody in last few days defeated the existence of Mahabharata itself? They say it is a...

Prabhupada: Who is that man?

Indian man (4): They may, they may.

Prabhupada: He has defeated?

Indian man (5): No, if they say that "There was nothing like Mahabharata," you tell.

Indian man (3): They may say, but...

Prabhupada: The foolish man can say anything. (Hindi) How he becomes more than all the acaryas, this rascal?

Indian man (5): My question is...

Prabhupada: Your question is that he has proved. What he has proved?

Indian man (5): No, no. His point of saying is that...

Prabhupada: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it.

Indian man (5): No, no, the point is that it is a story to teach people the rules and regulations of war. He wrote... It is a hypothesis during which the people are taught the morals of the life. No such war actually existed. There is already...

Prabhupada: That is his foolishness. He's a rascal.

Indian man (2): But we have seen a person rejecting his own father: "My father was also (unclear)."

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore a rascal can say like that. A rascal can say like that.

Indian man (2): Somebody said that "No, my mother's name should come after my name, or father's name."

Prabhupada: Muḍha. Therefore they have been called muḍhas. Na ma duskrtino muḍha prapadyante naradhamaḥ;. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gita as duskrtinaḥ;. First of all they are very, very sinful. They have got merit, but sinful merit, duskrtinaḥ;. Krti means meritorious, but duḥ;, duskrtina. So on account of their [being] duskrtinaḥ; they are muḍhas. They cannot understand what is scripture, what is God, what is Krsna. They cannot understand. It is not possible.

Indian man (3): Yes, I at least understand what is God.

Prabhupada: You want to save yourself.

Indian man (2): His definition is different, absolutely. According to his...

Prabhupada: No, God cannot be defined differently. God is one.

Indian man (2): But can God be defined? We haven't got a definition of God. I challenge you.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Indian man (2): You cannot. Intellectually, you cannot analyse things.

Prabhupada: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ-aisvarya-purna. Aisvaryasya samagrasya... Parasara Muni has given. That is God just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aisvaryasya samagrasya. That Krsna says, bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of everything," that Krsna says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God.

Indian man (2): I say, in foreign countries, Swamiji, our Krsna consciousness movement is spreading.

Prabhupada: Yes, you cannot see?

Indian man (2): Yes, we want to know from Your Holiness...

Prabhupada: You cannot see? Who are they if they are not...

Indian man (2): Yes, yes, yes. We are very much... We take a pride. Actually we take a pride that Your Holiness like you had gone for America and the world and spread our message of our Indian philosophy. We are very much proud about it. Though we do not give much response to your mission here or in India because it's our home. Home is for the neighbor only(?). That is the difficulty. Tulsi das has written (Hindi). Swami Vivekananda went there, and he was honored there, and thereafter our people honored him because other people honored him.

Prabhupada: All right. Let us go. Jaya. Hare Krsna. Just... (Hindi) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [Break] (Hindi conversation)

Kartikeya: We have not seen father.

Prabhupada: You have not seen.

Kartikeya: The body is not father, and what is father, what is in the father, we have never seen.

Prabhupada: That you have not seen. You have no eyes to see.

Kartikeya: I have not seen my father. Even I have not seen myself. I see my hand. When you say "I see my hand," I see my body, but have I seen my self?

Indian man (2): He is my friend. He is my friend Mr. Urbana, and he is an architect, prominent architect in Gujarat, eh?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): He's a first-class..., but he is, his brain is influenced by Arya-samaj, Arya-samaj. (laughter) So I say Arya-samajis are muscular body. Bodies are muscular, so their brain is also muscular. They are not going to accept any idea except that thing which they have already there in the brain. (laughter)

Indian man (3): No, no, no. It is not that way. We want to accept everything that... (Hindi)

Indian man (2): Pranam, pranam, (Hindi) pranam.

Kartikeya: Do you believe in the Vedas?

Indian man (5): Yes, we believe in Vedas.

Kartikeya: Who gave Vedas?

Indian man (3): Isvara.

Kartikeya: Who is that?

Indian man (3): God. God.

Kartikeya: No, without a personality nobody can write. You cannot write your signature without a body.

Indian man (3): How did you get your actually words? From where? From where did you get your words?

Kartikeya: Well, I have got my body, so I can speak with my body. I cannot speak without my body.

Indian man (5): At that time He acted like a magician, that God. How can He reduce it into writing?

Prabhupada: Bhagavan, original Absolute Truth... (Hindi) Janmady asya yataḥ;: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates." (Hindi) Everything is manufactured, everything. Now, that original source...

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Indian man (3): There are three things: jivatma, Paramatma or prakrti. (Hindi) Who is not connected with anything, He is, simply is a guide. He guides.

Prabhupada: So formless guidance... (Hindi)?

Indian man (3): Formless guidance, Isvara... (Hindi)

Indian man (2): If you want a guidance, then you have to become formless.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. You are talking. You are not formless. You are giving us guidance, you are talking, but you are not formless.

Indian man (3): Guidance I am not giving. It is guidance of God. It is given by God. It is given by God.

Prabhupada: No, no. How? No, no. If guidance cannot be given by a formless...

Indian man (3): I am a medium simply. The guidance is given by God. That is through Vedas.

Prabhupada: These are contradictory. You are talking something, you are form, and you say the original talker is formless. How it is possible?

Kartikeya: Sir, you are building building. There is no architect? How in the building there are no architects? Anything that is made must have got an architect or... Whole universe is there

Indian man (3): But none of us... I believe that there is God.

Kartikeya: No, no, but why don't you give a body?

Indian man (3): But why do you give Him a form, actually?

Kartikeya: Because we have got forms. He has got form.

Indian man (3): Just because you have got form, He must also have a form?

Kartikeya: Yes, because we are His reflection; we are His particles.

Indian man (3): No, no, no. We are not His particles. I say it is not...

Prabhupada: No, no, where you get this idea that formless can give guidance? Where do you get this idea? Where is your experience? Your experience is as soon as there is guidance, there is a form. So how do you get this expe... Why do you talk something which is not within your experience, nobody's experience? As soon as you talk of guidance, there is form.

Indian man (3): But what is air?

Prabhupada: No, no, first of all answer this. Why do you get this idea that a guidance comes from formless? Just like this government. We do not see that the guidance coming from the sky. There is Indira Gandhi; there is minister.

Indian man (3): But these are all in the material world.

Prabhupada: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience?

Indian man (3): So whatever we experience should be...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise you cannot talk. If you cannot say anything which is not within your experience, then what is the meaning of that talk?

Indian man (2): Even if there is no form, we have to create a form.

Indian man (3): But why?

Indian man (2): Just to have our faith in that form.

Indian man (3): Now, actually, when you pray God actually, do you open your eyes or do you close your eyes? What do you do?

Indian man (2): We close our eyes. We also...

Indian man (3): Why do you close the eyes?

Prabhupada: No, we don't close. We are going to see God in the temple, so we don't close. You close, and therefore you cannot understand. We see in eye to eye. (laughter)

Indian man (3): So He is only in that particular place. He cannot be everywhere.

Prabhupada: No, He is everywhere. But you say, "He is everywhere, but He is not there." That is your idea. You say...

Indian man (3): No, no, no, sir. No, sir. He is everywhere. He is throughout.

Prabhupada: Then why not in the temple?

Indian man (3): He is everywhere, I say. He is everywhere.

Prabhupada: Then you are in the... He's in temple. Then why do you say He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But who says?

Prabhupada: You say.

Indian man (3): I don't say that. Not that only. Not that only.

Prabhupada: If He is everywhere, why He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But not in that form.

Prabhupada: That is your version. (laughter) That is your version.

Harikesa: Then there is somewhere where He is not.

Indian man (3): No, no. I say... No, no, no. Somewhere... He is everywhere.

Yasomatinandana: He is a murti also.

Indian man (3): Everywhere. But He is not that murti. He is not that murti.

Prabhupada: That is your version. But we are not so fool that we are going to see something which is not God. We are not so fool.

Indian man (3): Well, then, your opinion may be different. My opinion is quite different.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is another thing. But when we go to see God in the temple, we see God, nothing else. That experience you haven't got.

Indian man (3): Murti, simply that murti? Nothing else.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is...

Indian man (2): The confirmation you haven't got at the present moment. Thereafter you will get a realization, afterwards. (laughter) [break]

Indian man (2): And about forty people are here all over, coming since about fifteen years, or twenty years.

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He entered Jagannatha temple, He immediately fainted: "Oh, here is my Lord." So it is the question of seeing.

Indian man (6): But what is our inner things? How we know it? In our classical music, actually Lord Krsna is the main figure in all... In even Muslim classical music, they also pray Lord Krsna.

Prabhupada: Premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ; sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. We have to create our eyes to see. Hare Krsna.

Indian man (7): [break] ...unless there is a good center. Mr. Marya said that you are going to have one here.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Indian man (8): If... We'll get continuous advantage of your preaching, sir.

Prabhupada: Yes. (loud car noise)

Indian man (7): And I think that it is badly needed.

Indian man (8): [break] That gentleman whispered in my ear, that "I am muḍha" he said. And I said, "Yes, you are a muḍha." (laughter)

Prabhupada: He confirmed it. That he is.

Indian man (8): But he said that "I am a raksasa, maybe. Of course, you are like that."

Prabhupada: Then anyone. Why he is alone? Anyone.

Indian man (8): No, he claims that "I am a muḍha." "Yes," I said, "you are." When he questioned, I have to reply.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Indian man (8) : Hare Krsna. (end)