Prabhupada: This man is unemployed, and if we engaged him for plowing, will he do that?
Paramahamsa: I don't think so. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Just see.
Amogha: That's too hard, that's work. "We don't want to work like that, we just want some easy job."
Prabhupada: Then you suffer.
Srutakirti: That would mean they had to leave the city. They don't want to leave the city.
Prabhupada: Then go to hell.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, we received news yesterday that one man in northern New South Wales is willing to sell us a farm, a great big farm out there in the southern tropics. Would this be a good place for engaging boys like the Indian, the Indian boy that came yesterday?
Prabhupada: Yes. Our next program is to organize farming. Let anyone come. We shall give him free food and employment: "Come on." Not that "I want to work as a clerk in the city." You produce your own food. I give you ingredients. I give you land. And work for five, six hours, and take your food and chant Hare Krsna.
Devotee (1): Anybody who comes to the farm has to agree to follow the four regulative principles? These people?
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise you are not coming. Our main business is to make him Krsna conscious. Where you have left my that overcoat?
Srutakirti: That is in London. (pause)
Prabhupada: [break] How they will serve? The proposal...[break] that how... [break] ...they have disco... [break] They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?
Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness...
Prabhupada: But the heater is not curing the suffering.
Amogha: But it makes us warm.
Prabhupada: But a heater, how many men will get heater?
Amogha: Well, we can make them cheaply so that practically everyone...
Prabhupada: You can, but you do not, neither you can.
Amogha: But in this country everyone, all these houses have heaters.
Prabhupada: In the... Why do you take in this country? Why not other country?
Amogha: Well, so many countries.
Prabhupada: Where? That is simply bluff. You cannot do it. Cannot do it. Suffering must be there.
Paramahamsa: Well, we accept the suffering is there, but we will still try to reduce it. That's all.
Paramahamsa: By inventing so many things.
Prabhupada: That is another bluffing. You have already invented so many things. Where is the reduction of suffering?
Amogha: Well, there are less diseases, we are finding so many cures now that...
Prabhupada: I don't find less diseases. You are increasing hospitals.
Srutakirti: Well, now we're taking care of the diseased people. Before, no one ever took care.
Paramahamsa: Like in India, for example.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Even if you take care, what is the result? You have to increase hospitals.
Paramahamsa: Well, that's cause the population is increasing.
Prabhupada: That is not the fact.
Amogha: Just like in Australia.
Prabhupada: No, therefore your proposal is failure. You increase your, what is called, amenities?
Prabhupada: The population increases. The proportion remains the same.
Srutakirti: But we're taking care of them.
Amogha: At least we're helping them.
Prabhupada: No, you are taking care of them, but the population increasing, therefore you cannot take care of every one of them.
Paramahamsa: Oh, yes, because we increase our hospitals therefore we can...
Prabhupada: Ah, you are increasing and population increasing, that's all.
Paramahamsa: And then we keep increasing according to the population.
Prabhupada: Then go on struggling. That is struggling. There is no question of decreasing. Proportionate. Proportionately, you increase the amenities, and proportionately the distress increases.
Paramahamsa: It's just like in some countries the diseased men, they suffer in the street, but here we give them a nice place to suffer.
Paramahamsa: They can suffer in a nice warm hospital...
Prabhupada: So you are increasing this cancer. Very comfortable at home, but there is cancer.
Paramahamsa: But now we have almost got the cure.
Prabhupada: You have, all right. My point is that you have so many things, but the suffering is going on. That is my point. You increase your means of diminishing suffering, but they are coming in a different way. So the sufferings cannot be stopped. That is not possible. This is the conclusion.
Srutakirti: But we're learning how to enjoy even the suffering, make the best of it.
Paramahamsa: Best use of a bad bargain.
Prabhupada: That is another bluff. That is another bluff. But then don't say that "We shall stop suffering." You can say that...
Amogha: No, we don't say we can stop it, but we can almost stop it.
Prabhupada: Not minimize. If you are increasing hospital, where is the minimizing? Every state is increasing hospitals.
Srutakirti: Yeah, well that's part of the minimization.
Prabhupada: (laughing) Fools cannot be convinced. We are helpless to convince. That is the difficulty.
Amogha: Actually some of the hospitals are very nice places. They are very comfortable for the patients, and they enjoy it.
Prabhupada: You are thinking that it is very comfortable, but the patient is not thinking.
Srutakirti: But we have experience where the patient doesn't want to leave because there is such nice facilities in our hospitals, color television, recreational rooms...
Amogha: Nice nurse.
Prabhupada: So you become patient and go to the hospital.
Srutakirti: Just like in our prisons, sometimes the prisoners, they don't want to leave because they don't have to work and they're getting food. They have a bed...
Paramahamsa: We can teach people how to live with their problems and at the same time learn how to minimize them through technology.
Prabhupada: No, because you have got so many facilities to teach people that "You become patient, you become criminal, and you live comfortably." That is very nice, "You become criminal, go to the jail and live very comfortably." "You become diseased, go to the hospital and live comfortably." That is very easy.
Paramahamsa: But see, they can't cause any trouble in the jail. That is the advantage. Therefore everyone is comfortable because they see that the murderers are locked up and they can't do any harm. Therefore everyone is feeling safe. And in a hospital people, similarly, they have some disease. They can't... Like in India, the beggars on the street, they should all be in hospitals, whereas in the foreign countries all those type of people are all in hospitals, taken care of.
Prabhupada: Then why hippies are lying on the street?
Paramahamsa: Well, that is voluntary.
Prabhupada: So, one side, you make arrangement for patient; another side, they voluntarily suffer. Then what you can...
Srutakirti: No, that is their happiness.
Paramahamsa: Oh, they are enjoying.
Srutakirti: It's not suffering to them. They are very happy.
Prabhupada: You are thinking they are unhappy.
Amogha: Even the police try to make the hippies get off the street, and they say, "No, no, we like it here. We want to stay."
Prabhupada: Then you want to minimize their suffering?
Amogha: No, we will let the hippies lie there, but for the sick people who are...
Prabhupada: What is the difference, a hippie lying on the street and in India some patient is lying on the street? What is the difference?
Srutakirti: According to the person's desire, we facilitate.
Prabhupada: No, go on, waste your time. Your philosophy is that "If they feel pleasure lying on the street, so let them lie down." That is your philosophy. Then why do you endeavor for others?
Paramahamsa: Well, if they feel pleasure, then we can also let them.
Prabhupada: So it is then relative. When you...
Srutakirti: Yes. According to the person's desire.
Paramahamsa: We just want to see that everyone is happy, and that way we will know that we are pleasing God.
Prabhupada: Nobody is happy. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it says, sitosna-sukha-duá¸Ą;kha-daá¸Ą;. Now, something is happiness; the same something is distress. So what is the standard of happiness? The same something is distress for another. One man's food, another man's poison. So where is the standard of happiness? What you are thinking, "This is happiness," others are thinking, "This is distress."
Amogha: That's why we have this modern philosophy that whatever makes you feel good you should do.
Prabhupada: No, then everyone will think they don't require philosophy.
Srutakirti: In this world everything is relative, so it's not expected that the same things will please everyone.
Prabhupada: Then why do you put something as happiness standard or distress standard? So everything is everything, that's all. (laughs) Why do you try to put a standard?
Paramahamsa: We try to simply make the facility if a person wants to change his position.
Prabhupada: So why you are so much busy in trying like that? Why you are waste your time? You make your own...
Srutakirti: But that is his happiness. Giving facility to others is what makes me happy.
Prabhupada: No, he doesn't want to... Just like if you want to give facility to the hippiesâ€”"Please come in nice home"â€”he will not accept.
Srutakirti: No, but we don't want to give to the hippies.
Prabhupada: Then what is the meaning?
Paramahamsa: For those who want...
Prabhupada: You cannot give happiness to everyone according to standard. Then unhappiness will continue, so what is the use of your wasting time? Because you cannot give happiness to everyone, what you think, "It is happiness," others will not accept it. Then where is the happiness?
Paramahamsa: We can give them what they want, and that will make them happy.
Prabhupada: It is contradictory. One mans want poison; you give him poison. One man wants food, you give him food. Then what is the standard of your food or poison? Then everything is required. Why do you bother?
Paramahamsa: Well, we have to draw the line somewhere.
Prabhupada: You can do it foolishly. That is another thing. But everything is all right. Poison is all right, and food is all right.
Srutakirti: The standard is the person's happiness.
Amogha: Just like now we have come to the point where the different doctors are thinking very seriously of having this mercy killing passed in the courts. When a person becomes too much diseased, actually he would be happier if he was dead, so why not kill him?
Prabhupada: That is contradictory. He will kill somebody, and he will give life somebody. That is... There is no standard. Everything is all right. Then why do you bother that "This is good"? The same "good" is bad for others.
Paramahamsa: That's why we have psychiatrists, to decide... They analyze the person very carefully and see what is good for him. And completely on a relative basis they give a prescription.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you think what is good for you? Why you are so busy for the good of others?
Srutakirti: Well that's this particular person's happiness, is seeing that others are happy.
Prabhupada: No, no. The same happiness is distress for others. Then what is the use, bothering yourself, "This is happiness; this is distress"?
Srutakirti: Because that is what makes me happy.
Amogha: We understand it is relative. Therefore we're working in a relative world.
Prabhupada: All right, do that. Madman's program. That is Vivekananda, "Everything is all right." "Everything is all right"â€”then why do you preach? You stop your preaching. Everything is all right. What is the use of saying that "This is good; this is bad"? Everything is all right.
Srutakirti: We preach that way so that other people will be happy knowing everything is all right. Now they're thinking everything is not all right, so they're in anxiety.
Prabhupada: There is a story. One man has written book how to tend cows. "Cows tending, cows tending, cows tending." So one old man calling, "What book you are selling?" "How to tend the cows." "So you better take this book to your mother. She will learn how to tend you." Cows tending everyone knows, and he has written a book. "So better... You are a rascal cow. Give it to your mother, and she will tend you, learn." It is like that. If everything is all right, somebody is taking, "This is pleasure," somebody..., then what is the use of writing book? Everything is all right. They may select whatever they like. Oh, why you are becoming a big preacher? Let them accept whatever they like.
Amogha: But some people have a hard time getting what they like. Therefore we like to help them. We feel that it's our duty as human beings to help them.
Prabhupada: So this duty is that you better go to your mother. All nonsense theory. It has no meaning.
Srutakirti: If everything is all right, then my preaching that is also all right.
Prabhupada: Your preaching is all right, so, provided you preach something good. But when everything is good, then where is the, your preaching required? You preach something. Just like we are preaching. We are preaching. This is actually good for, that he must know what he is and what is the ultimate goal of life. This is required. Material preaching has no value. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta. Ei bhala ei manda, saba manodharma: " 'This is good; this is bad,' this is all mental concoction." Actually. But real good is: "He has forgotten God. Revive his consciousness." That is real good. Then he'll saved from the so-called good and bad and everything. That is wanted. Materially, everything is one man's food, another man's poison. Therefore there is no distinctionâ€”"This is good; this is bad." The stool is very bad, bad smell for you, but it is food for the pig. This is proofâ€”"One man's food, another's poison." So this is only mental concoction, "This is good; this is bad."
Everything is good; everything is badâ€”materially. The real good for him, that he has forgotten his spiritual identification; revive him to that consciousness. That is real good. Somebody brings just now bucketfuls of water, and if he proposes "I shall drench you," "No, no, no, don't you drench me." But you will findâ€”we are goingâ€”the ducks, as soon as they..., immediately jump on the water. So whether water is good or bad? It is all relative. So don't bother about this good and bad. It is simply mental concoction. (pause) You can bring me breakfast at eight.
Devotee (1): Eight o'clock. All right.
Prabhupada: Not so early.
Srutakirti: And no mango for breakfast.
Prabhupada: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is catur-varnyam maya srsáąam [Bg. 4.13]. He is a sudra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.
Paramahamsa: Actually in the West, more or less, that system, the division system, is accepted because we have businessmen, we have labor men, we have politicians, we have teachers and professors.
Prabhupada: It is changed?
Prabhupada: My wrapper?
Srutakirti: Yeah, this is the new wrapper.
Prabhupada: New wrapper?
Srutakirti: I got for you in Vrndavana. I'd gotten it in Delhi.
Prabhupada: With that border?
Srutakirti: No, no, that's this. See there are two wrappers.
Prabhupada: Oh. Both of them are new.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita it says that if a man simply works for Krsna, he can come to the perfect stage. Is that perfect stage... When he fixes his mind on Krsna... But is that achieved via the regulative principles?
Devotee (1): If a man simply works for Krsna for his whole life, yet he doesn't follow the regulative principles...
Prabhupada: Then how he follows Krsna?
Devotee (1): That's not possible.
Prabhupada: If you are following Krsna, then how you can violate the regulative principles?
Devotee (1): Just like they follow a few regulative principles, like the basic four: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, and no intoxication. If they follow those four regulative principles and just work for Krsna...
Prabhupada: He doesn't follow the four principles?
Devotee (1): Oh, yes. Yes. There's this one devotee in Sydney who works very hard for Krsna, but...
Prabhupada: But does not follow.
Devotee (1): He does not like aratis or things like that. He just likes to work hard all the time.
Srutakirti: He follows the principles, but he doesn't go to arati, maybe he doesn't chant his rounds, but he's working...
Devotee (1): Real hard for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Like Gargamuni. (laughter)
Srutakirti: Yes, like that. And his plea is that Krsna says...
Prabhupada: Then he will fall down.
Devotee (1): He will fall down?
Srutakirti: But the plea is that Krsna says in the Gita, "By working for Me one can come to the perfectional stage."
Prabhupada: Yes, but he will fall down.
Srutakirti: That means "By working for Me eventually one will come to the point of follow the principles and..."
Srutakirti: Not "Simply by working for Me you can do it."
Srutakirti: You will advance to the other stages.
Prabhupada: Just like if a man is working hard, but he will never become rich, then what is the use? Working hard means one must become rich. But if he does not become rich, simply working hard, then what is the use? Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Utsahad dhairyat niscayat tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. You must follow the regulative principles. Sato vrtteá¸Ą;. This is your honesty, and sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], this can be done-association with devotees. Ṣaá¸Ťbhir bhaktiá¸Ą; prasidhyati: "This is the way of increasing devotional service." (end)