Prabhupada: (in car) They have not gone to the moon planet.

Paramahamsa: Really?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is far, far away. Their calculation is wrong. They are going to a wrong planet.

Paramahamsa: It must be the Rahu planet.

Prabhupada: Yes, or something else. Not moon planet.

Paramahamsa: How many...

Prabhupada: It is above the sun planet.

Paramahamsa: Moon planet is further?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Oh. Because they say that the moon planet is the closest planet to the earth. That is their calculation. And they say that it orbits around the earth, and then that the earth orbits the sun.

Prabhupada: All wrong. What is the... According to them, what is the distance of sun planet?

Paramahamsa: Sun planet is 93,000,000 miles.

Ganesa: They say the moon planet is only 250,000 miles.

Prabhupada: It is wrong thing.

Paramahamsa: Is their calculation for the distance of the sun wrong also?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: 93,000,000? It says in the Bhagavatam exactly what the distance?

Prabhupada: The whole universe, diameter, is pañcasat-koṭi-yojana. One yojana equal to eight miles, and one koti is ten miles, er, ten million. So pañcasata, fifty into 10,000,000 into eight.

Paramahamsa: Yeah. So it's fifty crores yojana. Fifty crores yojanas?

Prabhupada: Yes, fifty crore yojanas, pañcasat. So one yojana equal to eight miles, one crore equal to ten million.

Paramahamsa: That's eighty million.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Paramahamsa: Eighty million times fifty.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Means 400,000,000

Srutakirti: Hmm. More than that. Four billion.

Paramahamsa: Four thousand million, which is four billion?

Srutakirti: Four billion miles.

Paramahamsa: Four billion miles is the diameter.

Prabhupada: Is the diameter.

Paramahamsa: You gave that in The Teachings of Lord Caitanya also.

Prabhupada: Yes. And the sun is in the middle.

Paramahamsa: So two billion miles from the edge of the universe.

Prabhupada: Yes. And they say? 93,000,000.

Srutakirti: That's from the earth to the sun. That's not from the sun to the edge. That's from earth to the sun.

Amogha: Is earth near the edge of the universe?

Prabhupada: No. There are many other planets down. Seven planetary system.

Paramahamsa: The higher planetary systems are closest to the sun? And then...

Prabhupada: No, sun is the middle. This is circumference. Sun is the middle. And the whole diameter is fifty lakhs and... What is...? And moon is above, 200,000 yojanas above the sun.

Paramahamsa: Ah. 200,000 yojanas. That means 1,600,000 miles above the sun.

Prabhupada: Above the sun. How they'll go? (laughter) They are going to the wrong..., bluffing only. I am repeatedly saying, they have never gone, simply bluff. How it is that they brought some dust? So brilliant, it is blazing, full. There is fire blazing. (walking:)

Paramahamsa: They say that they measured the moon and that it's very small compared to the earth, very tiny.

Prabhupada: All wrong.

Paramahamsa: If it's a longer distance than the sun but still it appears so big in the sky, it must be a very large planet.

Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly Venus and others, they are also above.

Paramahamsa: Oh, above the sun.

Prabhupada: The sun is moving near about that. This is one universe, and there are thousands and millions of universe. Jagad-anḍa-koṭi. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anḍa-koṭi [Bs. 5.40]. That is God's creation. And they are becoming God, "I am God." Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya [Bs. 5.48]. If we simply think of the creation of God, we can appreciate how great He is.

Paramahamsa: That's why it's described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: They say, "God is great," but they do not know how great He is. That is explained in the Vedic literature. Of course, those who are saying "God is great," they are pious. And those who are saying that "I am God," how foolish they are. Therefore I say that anyone who says, "I am God," immediately kick with your shoes on his face. Such a cheater.

Amogha: There is... One of the disciples of Guru Maharaj-ji, Bala Yogesvara, is in Perth. They have their center here. And he is giving lectures daily, and many people are attending.

Prabhupada: That he is God.

Amogha: There was an article in the paper yesterday from India that says that the Indian court has banned Guru Maharaj-ji from leaving India. They have issued an order that he must stay until the court has finished because his brother is suing. Because his brother published a photo showing Guru Maharaj-ji embracing and kissing an American girl in the paper. So the Guru Maharaj-ji published a picture of his brother doing the same thing. But they say it was a fake photo, so the court is holding him in India, and they're having a legal battle, suing each other to see who is God.

Prabhupada: Farce.

Paramahamsa: It seems like these demons who say that they are God, eventually they will end up destroying each other.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now they are fools, rascal, bluffing, but even the scientists, they are also bluffing. Now Russia and America combined together, going? Just see where they are going.

Paramahamsa: Here's one article about scientists in the paper. It says, "Wonder food will help control heart disease." They say they have a new way of feeding beef and poultry so that the food now, when they eat the beef, it won't give them heart attack.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Paramahamsa: They say if they feed them a special diet they have found it changes the cholesterol level in the beef, so if they eat it, they won't get heart attack like they used to. And it says, "The director of the National Heart Foundation, Ralph Reeder, said he believed the process was one of the most significant contributions in recent years toward controlling heart disease. 'It should not be taken lightly by skeptics. It is a world's first,' he said."

Amogha: Now they are also thinking that different types of meat cause cancer, not only heart disease but cancer.

Ganesa: What have the scientists got to gain by bluffing?

Prabhupada: Position. Material world means they want some material gain, some adoration, and some fame. That's all. This is material world. So if by bluffing you I get some material profit and adoration and fame, why shall I not do it? Everyone is doing that.

Amogha: That's the cheating propensity.

Prabhupada: Yes. In material world they have come to imitate God—adoration, fame, material profit. Just like this man. He has come to this country. He is getting money, he is getting woman, and becoming God amongst the fools. He is satisfied. That's all. This is not gain? If I get woman, money, and adoration, is it not gain for me?

Ganesa: Yes, just like Hiranyakasipu.

Prabhupada: Yes. Materialistic man means he wants all these things in different way. Somebody is becoming God, somebody is becoming philosopher, somebody is becoming scientist, in this way. Real purpose is these three things. Abha-puja-pratisṭha. And our philosophy? We don't want anything of this. Just see. Negation. Na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksasṭaka 4]. Say... All denial, "We don't want." That is Vaisnavism. Then what do you want? "We want simply to serve Krsna." This is our position. They don't want to serve Krsna; they want to imitate Krsna. And that is their satisfaction.

Amogha: Srila Prabhupada, many times when I am seeing professors or students also, they seem to think that traditional Hinduism or whatever they think it is, they say that the Mayavadi philosophy, or monist, they think this is traditional, and..., because there's so many translations of the Bhagavad-gita and the Upanisads they've read, and they're all impersonal. So I was wondering what is the best way to convince them that actually, that is not actually the original tradition of understanding?

Prabhupada: How they are becoming foolish, that they are reading Bhagavad-gita and they are accepting original tradition of the Mayavada? In the original tradition of Bhagavad-gita, it is said, Krsna said, aham vivasvate yogam proktavan: "I said. I am person." How these rascals are accepting imperson? Why do they read Bhagavad-gita? If they have got different theory, let them differently... They are cheating. Bhagavad-gita is popular. Therefore they are taking advantage of Bhagavad-gita and pushing on impersonalism. But here the tradition begins, aham vivasvate yogam. Where is imperson? So if they want to be cheated willingly, who can save them? They are reading Bhagavad-gita and deviating from the words of Bhagavad-gita. Then what is the meaning?

Amogha: They don't know. They simply...

Prabhupada: That means they are so rascal, that... You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You must take the words of Bhagavad-gita. Why you are taking other words? What business you have got?

Amogha: They think by majority, most people think like this...

Prabhupada: Majority or minority, it doesn't matter. But why you should take Bhagavad-gita to establish your rascal theories? That means you are cheating.

Amogha: But they think that's the meaning of Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: That's the meaning how?

Amogha: That's what they think. They think because they've read so many commentaries...

Prabhupada: Why do they think? If I have written one book, my words are my meaning. Why you should give meaning? I shall kick on your face. What right you have got? You write another book. Why should you take my book and give your meaning? What is this?

Paramahamsa: These professors didn't write the books, but they read all these Swami this and that books' translations. And then they think, "Well, all these swamis say it's like this..."

Prabhupada: No. They should be conscious that if you read one book, you must understand what the author says. Why should you bring something else to understand that book? What is this? If you want to say something else, you write your own book or bring that book. Why you should take my book? If you want to smoke ganja, why should you take my hand? You have got your hand. You smoke ganja. What is this? I take your hand and smoke ganja? (laughter)

Paramahamsa: But they say that "We need the help of these different commentaries to understand such deep philosophy."

Prabhupada: Why should you? Why should you? Why should you take Bhagavad-gita? There are different philosophers. They have got different theories. You make your theories. But why should you make your theories on the basis of Bhagavad-gita?

Paramahamsa: Well, they say they want to study the Bhagavad-gita...

Prabhupada: But that is not... If you study, you study as it is.

Amogha: They can't read Sanskrit.

Paramahamsa: They don't know. They think "We have to accept from these different swamis. They are the authorities."

Prabhupada: Why you should? If you do not know Sanskrit, why don't you learn Sanskrit, one who knows Sanskrit? What is this nonsense? I say, "Give me a glass of water," and you do not know Sanskrit, you say, "No, it is not meant for him; it is meant for me." What is this?

Paramahamsa: But the professors aren't doing this. They want to read the Bhagavad-gita, so they're accepting these Mayavadi philosophers' interpretations. We're speaking of the professors, not of the ones writing Bhagavad-gita interpretations.

Prabhupada: So why Mayavada... Interpretation is required when you cannot understand, but when the things are understood very clearly... Just like we had been in Kuruksetra. That place is there for millions and millions of years. And why one should interpret, "Kuruksetra means this body"? Why should we accept this meaning? Kuruksetra is already there. Everyone is going. And if somebody interprets, "No, Kuruksetra means this body," so why I shall be so foolish to accept this interpretation?

Paramahamsa: Well, people say that they're not sure whether it's a symbolic meaning or an actual meaning.

Prabhupada: That is your conjecture. But when you read book you should understand the wording of the book. You cannot conjecture in such...

Paramahamsa: Because they say some of the Vedic literatures...

Prabhupada: That means willingly they want to become fool.

Paramahamsa: There are so many great symbolic literatures.

Prabhupada: You are seeing this green. If you interpret, "It is not green; it is white," what is this? Can you interpret like that? It is green, and "No, in my interpretation it is white. What you are seeing, it is not actual seeing." You can go on saying like that. But I am an ordinary man. Why shall I take it white? It is green. That's all.

Paramahamsa: But that is the way of great writing, to write in symbolism. That is...

Amogha: Great literary works are done in that way.

Paramahamsa: They call it "writing between the lines." There's some hidden meaning. Therefore it is very deep.

Amogha: And so if Krsna was such a great philosopher, then naturally He would have also used those literary talents to write in between the lines.

Prabhupada: All right, you become very good bluffer. That's all. We don't accept you. All the acaryas, they did not accept, those who are authorities. Vyasadeva, he did not accept these foolish theories. Narada never accepted. Recent acaryas, Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, Caitanya. Why shall I accept these third-class professors? Kick on their face. We have got authority to support this.

Ganesa: I think they want to interpret Bhagavad-gita because they do not want to surrender to Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is the idea. That is the real purpose. They want to kill Krsna. That is the endeavor of Hiranyakasipu, Kamsa, that "We shall kill Krsna." And ultimately they become killed. Their faith is like that.

Amogha: Their whole idea of Indian history, of Vedic history, is completely perverted. When we say five thousand years ago Vyasadeva compiled this in writing, they say, "There was no civilization five thousand..." They said, "Only two thousand years ago there was some tribes, and they were not very moral," and things like this, all completely nonsense, because they misread the Bhagavata and things like this. And then they teach some of the students these crazy ideas. Not all of them, but I talked to some who teach like this.

Prabhupada: The more you fight with these rascals, the more you advance in Krsna consciousness. You are a fighting soldier. Krsna very much appreciates. (long pause) So you take Bhagavad-gita by your own interpretation, and I take Bhagavad-gita as it is. So who is right? Who will decide this? You interpret in your own way. I don't interpret. I take it as it is. Now we are two parties. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say because so many others...

Prabhupada: No, no, there are two parties. That's all. Others means one who interprets, that is one party. And there is one party who does not interpret. So who is correct?

Amogha: They say, "We are right because we are more." They say, "We are many..."

Prabhupada: Many asses means there is an opinion? Many asses give some opinion. Is that opinion?

Srutakirti: They say so.

Amogha: They say we are Ph.D., and there are so many swamis and things like this.

Prabhupada: Oh, majority.

Srutakirti: Democratic method.

Amogha: Majority rules.

Ganesa: The result will show.

Prabhupada: Yes. That democracy is the ruination of civilization.

Amogha: But actually many of them appreciate the actual translation because it's so much more clear. It's just that before, they didn't read it. Many of them, now they are reading it, they appreciate it very much

Prabhupada: So we want to remain in the minority. We don't want to be ruled by the majority.

Paramahamsa: Actually, anybody who is serious about spiritual life can accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, and the others take all the other spiritualists'...

Amogha: Actually, these professors aren't interested in spiritual life. They're just thinking. They just think and talk, but they're not interested in spiritual life either way. They don't follow the other commentary...

Prabhupada: They do not know what is spiritual life.

Paramahamsa: They consider spiritual life as simply a department of philosophy.

Prabhupada: Yes, psychology.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Spiritual life is reality they do not understand. They take it as something mental position. (long pause)

Ganesa: All of these gurus are being exposed. Just like Guru Maharaji.

Paramahamsa: Generally people don't believe it if someone says he is God.

Prabhupada: The first thing is: what wonderful thing he has done, that he is God? People have no common sense. We accept Krsna as God. There are so many wonderful things done by Krsna. Now what has he done that we accept that he is God? He has fallen in love with his secretary; any common sweeper also becomes.

Paramahamsa: That is his lila.

Prabhupada: The sweeper's lila. (laughter) (long pause)

Amogha: Srila Prabhupada, sometimes if we go out to preach and we go away from the association of devotees, what can we do to make sure that we...

Prabhupada: You go at least two. Don't go alone. That is the system. When you go to preach, you must go at least two. If possible, more than two. Don't go alone. That is not the system. (pause) This Guru Maharaja (Guru Maharaj-ji) cannot go back to India?

Amogha: No, he cannot leave India. He went to India to struggle with his brother and mother.

Prabhupada: Oh. So now it is...

Amogha: Now the court says, "You cannot leave India until we settle this." They've issued a court order not to leave India.

Prabhupada: That is good.

Amogha: Yes. He can remain there. (pause)

Prabhupada: The case is... Who is the complainer?

Amogha: Well, originally... The story is something that the father started the whole movement, and then he died.

Prabhupada: He was a great cheat.

Paramahamsa: Yes, chief cheat.

Amogha: Yes. And his wife cheater, she wanted to carry it on and her eldest son was named God, or the leader. And..., but she thought that this Guru Maharaj-ji was better, more appealing to the people. So she changed and said, "He can be the leader." Then he started the Western movement. And then he began... She noticed that he was becoming playboy instead of God. And so she began the trouble in India, and she claimed that he was no longer suitable because he was eating meat and intoxication and becoming a playboy, all these things. Dancing. So she started the trouble in India, and she wants to reinstate the elder brother as the leader and take away the younger one, Guru Maharaj-ji. So that's how the trouble started.

Prabhupada: So that her business may go on.

Paramahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: First of all she tried the youngest son. When he is failure, now replace him.

Paramahamsa: Actually, he was a good investment. She made a lot of money on the younger son, probably more than she would have on this older one. Because the older one is not so attractive. He's kind of ugly. This younger one is very...

Prabhupada: Attractive?

Paramahamsa: Yeah, kind of cute. Everyone thought he was cute. (laughter) Young, fat...

Amogha: So now he has gone to India to try to win the battle, and in the course he has been sued, and the court order says he must stay until the suit is finished.

Ganesa: When the movement first came out to Australia about three or four years ago, one of his disciples who was a girl, she came through Perth, and at that time I was arguing Bhagavad-gita with her, but she could not understand. She could not see that it was Krsna to surrender to and not Guru Maharaj-ji.

Amogha: Whenever we place a good argument with them, they say, "Yes, but all these words are just words, and actually it is beyond words. The truth is beyond words. So never mind."

Prabhupada: You are talking words. You are not beyond.

Amogha: Then they should not talk anything.

Prabhupada: "Please stop your talking because you are not beyond, you are talking also like me."

Paramahamsa: They say that the Absolute Truth is beyond words. That way we don't have to explain anything about it.

Prabhupada: So we don't say beyond words. You say. But you are talking, therefore you cannot speak about Absolute Truth.

Amogha: Well, they don't.

Paramahamsa: They only talk nonsense.

Amogha: They don't like to argue about the Absolute Truth. They'll only talk nonsense.

Prabhupada: Why you are holding meetings? Big, big meeting arrangements, why do you make?

Amogha: Well, they hold the meeting and they say, "You come to us and take knowledge," that's all.

Prabhupada: That is word, that is word.

Paramahamsa: But they say it's something else.

Prabhupada: You are using words, canvassing. Why do you say beyond words? The word is helping you.

Paramahamsa: Well, they say, "The actual knowledge is beyond words. You come and take knowledge from us and you will see that it's beyond words."

Prabhupada: The beginning is words. So where is the absolute knowledge?

Paramahamsa: They say, "That you have to take from us." If you ask them to describe it, they say, "No, no, you have to..."

Prabhupada: This is not... Better hate to talk with them.

Paramahamsa: Better to...

Prabhupada: Yes, don't talk with them. So lower-grade men they are, it is useless to talk with him.

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupada: "God is detained by the word of court." He has no power to defy the words of court.

Paramahamsa: The judge will judge him.

Prabhupada: And he is God.

Amogha: Yes. He will probably bribe the judge. That will be the real...

Prabhupada: That is possible. Everything is possible.

Amogha: Because he is so rich he can pay the judge a few million rupees, and the judge will say, "Yes, yes, he is God." By court's rule.

Prabhupada: Then the other party will go to appeal. Where he is being judged, in the Supreme Court or lower court?

Amogha: I'm not sure. Actually, the judgment is whether or not he put a false picture in the newspaper of his brother with a girl. The older brother is claiming that... First he put a picture in the paper showing the younger Guru Maharaj-ji kissing an American girl. So Guru Maharaj-ji put another counter-photo showing his older brother with an American girl. So the suit is over whether this second picture is a real picture or is it artificially made. That's what the court will decide.

Prabhupada: Oh. That is the suit.

Paramahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: So in other words, the case is that God cannot kiss an American girl. (laughs) Is that the case? (laughter)

Amogha: Well, not in public.

Srutakirti: The mother's claim is that the Guru Maharaj-ji is not fit to be the leader now because he is...

Prabhupada: Because he has kissed one American girl?

Paramahamsa: Well, not one, but many.

Prabhupada: Many.

Srutakirti: It's his character in general has degraded.

Amogha: That was the initiation.

Paramahamsa: She says he has fallen down and this is evidence.

Amogha: God has fallen down.

Prabhupada: That means kissing one American girl is falldown. Is that the case?

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupada: So why it is falldown? Krsna, He kissed so many gopis. He can defend like that.

Srutakirti: He may do that.

Prabhupada: Do that. He is the same Krsna. Now, formerly Krsna used to kiss cowherd girls. And He is kissing American girls. Where is the wrong?

Srutakirti: But this was in public.

Prabhupada: Krsna also do in public.

Paramahamsa: But he cannot do anything like lift Goverdhana Hill or have sixteen thousand wives.

Prabhupada: That is both for them. Let them lift only one mound weight. Then they will come. But they cannot do, neither of them. That is impossible. They have not killed any demons. They are taking advantage of the foolishness of some people. That's all.

Amogha: The only quality they have exhibited is expertness in cheating. That is their qualification. [break]

Paramahamsa: (in car) Because so many of them are saying that "I am God," they become envious of one another, and then they fight and expose each other.

Prabhupada: Competition. God's competition.

Paramahamsa: Yes. And then everyone can see that they are simply materialists.

Prabhupada: Not only he, but there are many others claim to become God. All of them should be brought into the court.

Paramahamsa: Didn't Bhaktivinoda Thakura do that once?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: What was the penalty that he...?

Prabhupada: He put into the jail for six months. And he died in the jail. He took poison. Because after coming out of the jail, he could not do his business. He's finished.

Ganesa: Also Paundraka.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna cut his head immediately. Let this Guru Maharaja cut the heads of the opposition, that "You do not accept me God, I cut your head." Let him cut the head of his brother or mother.

Paramahamsa: (laughing) He may do that.

Prabhupada: Then we can understand he is God. Why does he go to the mercy of court? And the court has detained him. What kind of God...? So can you get charcoal?

Amogha: Charcoal, yes

Prabhupada: Yes, get it. (end)