Prabhupada: ...nobody said that this meat-eating is bad; now I am saying. You see? So they do not know that it is bad. So they are not offenders.

Tamala Krsna: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping.

Prabhupada: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? [break] You can give me the general prasada today. I will taste. (test?) [break] When one becomes rich, he becomes lazy. What is called? "Leads to poverty"? Luxury. "Luxury leads to poverty." So at one time one become very rich by hard work, and next generation gets the money for nothing, he spends it on luxuries, and the third generation, poor. There are many families, in everywhere. In England, all these English men, in the beginning they worked very hard, expanding their empire and working. Then gradually, when they became Lord family, then luxury. Now they are poverty-stricken.

Tamala Krsna: Their country is very poor now.

Prabhupada: Very poor.

Tamala Krsna: All of Europe is poor.

Prabhupada: Yes. Especially Holland and England. Holland and England and France, there was competition for colonization. The same colonization is there in America, Canada. The Frenchmen and—what is that?

Brahmananda: The Dutchmen, they went to New York first. The Dutch, they first went to New York.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: Peter Stuyvesant.

Guru-krpa: The Scandinavian countries are not so poor. Denmark, Sweden...

Prabhupada: They are industrious, and they have got resources.

Tamala Krsna: And they have developed more recently, I think. They were not colonizing.

Prabhupada: No, the colonizing propaganda was amongst these three nation. France, English...

Dhanañjaya: Spanish and Portuguese. Spanish also.

Prabhupada: Ah, that side, is, means Western side.

Guru-krpa: Spanish went to South America.

Dhanañjaya: But the British used to say, "The sun never sets in the British empire."

Prabhupada: Yes, that we knew in our childhood.

Jayadvaita: Now there's no empire for the sun to set on.

Prabhupada: No. Now they have made it Commonwealth, keeping some scent, flavor of British empire. Commonwealth.

Ramesvara: Prabhupada? In those early days of colonization they were trying to sail to India by a quick route to get the spices, and it was the same time that Lord Caitanya's movement began. So is that just a coincidence, that they were trying to go to India at the same time?

Prabhupada: No. What it has got with Caitanya's movement?

Ramesvara: I heard... A devotee once told me that they were actually...

Prabhupada: Oh, again, "heard it from devotee." (laughter) That is very dangerous. What Caitanya's movement has got with politics? Nothing. They drag Caitanya's movement, that. Many rascals do that. It has nothing to do with politics. It is simply spiritual. Rather, even the Mohammedans, they were very much respectful to Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They never took it as, His, the political movement. Now it has become a fashion to take everything from political point of view. Just like in India, they are suspecting you as CIA. "CIA has come to become Vaisnava." (laughter) [break] That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. If anyone remembers Krsna by seeing somebody, that somebody is a Vaisnava. He gives impetus to remember Krsna. Therefore he is Vaisnava. You stick to your principle, Vaisnava. Then maya will not touch. [break] Where is Prajapati? He is not here?

Jayatirtha: No.

Prabhupada: He is going to...

Jayatirtha: He's here in Vrndavana, but he hasn't come on the walk.

Prabhupada: So, he is going to demonstrate anything? No.

Ramesvara: Is he going to do any play?

Tamala Krsna: Dances?

Jayatirtha: I'm not sure.

Tamala Krsna: What is your desire for that, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, no, I told him that you make some play for showing here in Vrndavana.

Tamala Krsna: It's all right that the women are dancing?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Srutakirti: You said plays. He could do plays.

Prabhupada: Yes. Women as far as possible should be no... That's not good.

Devotee (1): He spoke to me about it. He wants to do four performances here.

Tamala Krsna: Is that dancing he wants to do or plays?

Devotee (1): Dancing.

Prabhupada: With women?

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Prabhupada: No.

Devotee (1): He has to do play?

Prabhupada: So without woman there is no dancing? (laughter)

Tamala Krsna: His whole troupe is women. The New York devotees, the Vaikuná¹­ha Players, they have drama group.

Prabhupada: So, drama is good. Woman dancing will not be very much appreciated here. [break] ...scarcity of grains and government will exact taxes for poor-feeding, and it will be used for their own purpose. These are the Kali symptoms. [break] ...stay in future.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Are they doubting for themselves or for us?

Prabhupada: For us.

Guest (1): They should doubt for themselves.

Prabhupada: No, apart from that, now, from logical point of view...

Guest (1): Our movement, this movement, is Krsna's own movement.

Prabhupada: No, no, that they may not... I mean to say, from mundane argument, we are selling these twenty lakhs of worth books monthly, so it is being spread all over the world. And those who are purchasing books, they are intelligent men. Then when they will read, how this movement will stop?

Guest (1): It will never stop.

Prabhupada: It will not stop. The books distribution is so important, that it will continue to stay.

Satsvarupa: They doubt that our devotees will stick many times.

Prabhupada: Never mind. We will create by distributing books new devotees. These devotee may be... But others will be created. And we are creating a new generation for becoming devotee at Dallas.

Tamala Krsna: Gurukula. Srila Prabhupada? One thing in your lecture you sometimes say that we spend ten lakhs a month just for maintaining. But I figured out we spend... You can say even fifty lakhs because ten lakhs is very conservative.

Prabhupada: No, so far I have heard.

Tamala Krsna: No, I... From what I have seen we spend...

Ramesvara: Ten lakhs is just three or four temples.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Ramesvara: Los Angeles, New York, maybe Toronto, San Francisco, Dallas, that's all. Ten lakhs right there.

Tamala Krsna: Every month.

Prabhupada: So what is the actual expenditure?

Tamala Krsna: Oh, it must be...

Ramesvara: Four times that.

Tamala Krsna: At least fifty lakhs.

Ramesvara: At least fifty lakhs each month.

Prabhupada: Then how you are getting money? If you are selling only twenty lakhs' worth books, how you are spending forty lakhs?

Ramesvara: We are selling more books.

Tamala Krsna: More than twenty lakhs.

Prabhupada: So give me, what is called, consensus.

Tamala Krsna: The idea is the Book Fund, if the book is sold, it's sold at a profit. So although you may be getting only twenty or thirty lakhs, much more is being collected. That is the point.

Prabhupada: So why did you not correct me in the meeting? (laughter)

Tamala Krsna: Well, I didn't... (laughter) Even ten lakhs is a very impressive figure.

Prabhupada: Yes. Ten lakhs expenditure but twenty lakhs collection.

Tamala Krsna: But I think now we should say fifty lakhs expenditure and...

Prabhupada: One crore.

Tamala Krsna: One crore collection. That will be a nice target. [break]

Prabhupada: ...getting more price for their land on account of the temple.

Guest (1): Yes, Prabhupada Maharaja, they are just started asking double.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But who is going to purchase it?

Guest (1): Ah, we are not.

Prabhupada: The purchaser is ourself only.

Tamala Krsna: What about that land...

Prabhupada: [break] ...not very nice last time. But this time also I am not eating, but I am working nice.

Tamala Krsna: Not eating?

Prabhupada: No. This is improvement, no eating but working nicely.

Tamala Krsna: Like the six Gosvamis.

Prabhupada: Yes, that will be great fortune.

Tamala Krsna: Jaya.

Prabhupada: You will save your expenditure, and you will get your work.

Tamala Krsna: But the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they liked to see Him take prasadam. We don't... We're not that interested to save.

Prabhupada: [break] Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara, janma sarthaka kari [Cc. Adi 9.41]. "First of all, you become perfect." If you are a devil, you cannot do it. The devil and divine. Divine means spiritually advanced, and devil means materially advanced. And because we are manufacturing divine, the devils are afraid of it. The devils do not like this movement. (Someone drives by:) Jaya. So just see, automatically they are offering respect. That means we are infecting them.

Tamala Krsna: I was noticing that yesterday on the parade, everyone was offering respects.

Prabhupada: Yes, Vrndavana after all.

Tamala Krsna: I think that is a benefit spiritually.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: To offer you respects.

Bhagavan: In Bombay, even those poor fisherwomen...

Prabhupada: Yes, they are offering respects. Hare Krsna. So we have to create divine because the world is full of devils.

Tamala Krsna: But we have to be divine ourselves.

Prabhupada: Unless you become divine, how you can convert others to divine? If you are devil, you will convert others to become devil, that's all. [break] ...most beautiful.

Nalini-kanta:. Presided over by Aryama, the planet of trees.

Prabhupada: Planet... not planet. Amongst the trees. So who will prepare nice foodstuff for the governor?

Guest (1): Yes, Prabhupada Maharaja, very nice prasada.

Prabhupada: Who is preparing?

Tamala Krsna: We've given the list to the chief cook.

Guest (1): My wife is there and then Palika, Devasakti, your sister. Everybody is there.

Prabhupada: Yes. Do it very nicely. Now it will be examined who can cook very nice. If they say, "Oh, it is very nice," then good certificate.

Guest (1): Prabhupada, everybody is praising prasadam.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Everybody praising. Now the governor should praise. Then it will be praising. We can praise ourself, mutual praising society. You are very good, and you say I am very good, that's all. "Mr. Such and such is very good," and another man says, "Mr. Such and such very good." That is mutual praising society. Others must praise. Outsider must praise. [break]

Tamala Krsna: ...question about the philosophy? It's about the expansions. We've been reading the Caitanya-caritamrta about Nityananda Rama, about the expansions of Lord Nityananda, Sankarsana. And we were having a little difficulty trying to understand exactly the order in which He expands Himself. We understand that Krsna expands as Balarama. And then...

Prabhupada: Then again Balarama expands as Sankarsana. And Sankarsana expands. In this way expansion goes on. Where is the difficulty?

Tamala Krsna: You mention two Sankarsanas.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hundred thousand Sankarsana. Do you mean to say that this universal management is so easy thing?

Tamala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: You cannot manage a small temple. (laughter) And Krsna has to manage such a vast universal affairs. So this requires brain and expansion. You, when you are enquired, asked, "Why it is not done?" "I told him. I told him." He says, "I told him." Krsna does not say. He expands immediately and does the work.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm, does it Himself.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna, not that "I told him, and he did not do. I am free. That's all." (laughs) Expansion of order, and nobody is doing—not like that. One has to see whether it is done. That is Krsna. Not that I have told the another man and sleep myself. And Krsna does everything in such a way perfect. Purnam idam [Isopanisad, Invocation]. Nobody can find out any defect. That is Krsna, all-perfect. [break]

Tamala Krsna: ...in the Vaikuná¹­has, surrounding Narayana is Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: So five are present. Pañca-tattva.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Prabhupada, you say that Krsna is purnam, the complete whole. So in the material world, if something is very great, even though we may not like it, like people may not like the United States, but still, they have to admit that it is a very great country in comparison to theirs. So in the material world, things which are great, at least we have to admit that to some extent they are great. But Krsna is everything. So how is it that people are saying that He's so tiny that He may even be an ordinary man? How can they be so illusioned to think like that? Krsna is everything. How can they ignore Him?

Prabhupada: Illusioned because you do not know what Krsna says. That is your fault. Krsna says, "You do this," but you do not do that. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;. Who is doing that? Just take a census, who is thinking of Krsna. Hardly you will find one in million. So who is carrying out the order of Krsna? Nobody is doing.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: You are. But Srila Prabhupada, how is it that Krsna is everything, completely...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: And still, people completely can ignore Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is... Because Krsna is everything, his independence is also Krsna. The man's independence is also Krsna. So he is misusing his independence. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He is using his independence not to do this. Therefore he is suffering. (Greeting someone:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...says, mattaḥ; smrtir jñanam apohanam ca: [Bg. 15.15] "From Me there is remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness." So why Krsna is interested to induce one to forget? Why?

Tamala Krsna: Because they want to.

Prabhupada: Yes. That independence. So he wants to forget. Krsna says, "Yes, you do at your risk."

Tamala Krsna: And suffer the consequences.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: Is it the spirit soul which is desiring or is it just karma?

Prabhupada: The desiring... After desiring, there is karma. First of all willing.

Pusá¹­a Krsna: That is the soul.

Prabhupada: Thinking, feeling, willing. What you think, you feel, and then you will, and Krsna sanctions, that "Do it."

Pusá¹­a Krsna: So is the thinking material?

Prabhupada: Material and spiritual also.

Passer-by: Hari bol!

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Just like this machine can be used for material and spiritual purpose. When it is being used for spiritual, it is spiritual. Otherwise, material.

Tamala Krsna: Everything is Krsna's energy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: So it can be used in either way.

Prabhupada: Either way, yes.

Devotee (2): So our thinking and our feeling and our willing is the same. It can be either used in...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: But some energy of Krsna's cannot be used either way.

Prabhupada: Hm? Everything can be used. What is the example, it cannot be used?

Tamala Krsna: Well, I was thinking of Krsna's internal energy.

Prabhupada: No, internal energy, when it is perverted, that is material energy, when it is covered. Just like the sun. When it is covered, it is called cloud.

Tamala Krsna: I was thinking of just like Krsna's pure devotees like mother Yasoda. They are always eternally remaining.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...strongly warm, then you do not become cool very soon. You must be strongly warm, fire temperature. Then you will act as fire.

Tamala Krsna: And the process for heating up the fire?

Prabhupada: You keep yourself with fire.

Tamala Krsna: Jaya. That is you.

Prabhupada: Don't go outside the fire. Then you keep yourself warm. And temperature increase exactly like fire. That is required. That is the motto of our Back to Godhead: "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." That is the beginning of our movement. Keep Krsna always. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. Then you remain Krsnized. And as soon as you give it up, then think of devils. This is going on. [break]

Tamala Krsna: ...kirtana going twenty-four hours a day. In some of our larger temples is it also advisable?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. This is advisable for everywhere. Batches. What is the difficulty?

Tamala Krsna: Because the whole atmosphere becomes spiritualized, purified.

Prabhupada: Yes. The same thing: keep always with fire and you remain high temperature. And if you ignite fire and again pour water and again ignite, again pour, then what is the benefit? If you ignite fire, keep it fire, don't pour water. But generally they do that, that "Now I am chanting Hare Krsna, I am free from all sinful activities. Now again let me do it, and again I shall chant."

Tamala Krsna: No progress.

Prabhupada: No progress. Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhiḥ;. This is the greatest offense. [break] (switches to room conversation) ...the animals and human beings. Then they can work. Annad bhavanti bhutani, then parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;. Now parjanyaḥ;, cloud and rain, that is required. Parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;. And yajñad bhavati parjanyaḥ; [Bg. 3.14]. Then you have to arrange for sacrifice. So in the Kali-yuga the costly sacrifice is not possible. Therefore from the sastra we understand, yajñaiḥ; sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ; [SB 11.5.32]. Sumedhasaḥ;, "one who has got good brain substance." There is one word in Bhagavad-gita, alpa-medhasaḥ;: "poor brain substance." So we require some sumedhasaḥ;, not alpa-medhasaḥ;. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ; [Bg. 7.23]. They are making plans by their material concoction that... That is antavat. That will be finished. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasaḥ;. The things are there already, especially in India. We have got everything ready, and especially this land India. It is specially meant for God realization. By the birth, one is Krsna conscious, or God conscious. Still in these days, whenever... You have seen in Hyderabad. Although your conference was going on, still, at least five thousand men were attracted to hear me. (Guest laughs) And I was speaking the dry subject of Krsna. So India is so fortunate. They are still ready to assimilate the instruction of Krsna. The land is so fortunate. So we must give them the chance. That is our duty. That is government's duty. That is teacher's duty. That is father's duty. That is explained in Srimad-Bhagavata. Pita na sa syat. Guru's duty. One who has got the chance of accepting something very easily... The guardians... The first guardian, the government, the second, the father, then the teacher, then so many, friends, relatives—that chance should be given. So Nandaji is thinking... He is an experienced...

Guest (1): Actually, Krsna Raya (?) has performed there. Nandaji had taken that troupe there.

Prabhupada: So he is also a big man. Now he is retired from politics?

Guest (1): No. He is very much... He is more in politics than myself. (laughter)

Prabhupada: So, on that point I have taken his ideas very nice, his thinking. He is a good thinker. And so I have taken his ideas, and I want to reply him. So any good thinker, leaders, they should do something so the India's glories... Now, these people, they are chanting Hare Krsna. That is India's glory because we haven't got to give them anything. We are hundred years back always. When they manufacture jet plane, we manufacture sewing machine. Or cycle.

Guest (1): But we have great parampara of varnasrama-dharma.

Prabhupada: So we can give them these things. We can give them these things, that spiritual emancipation, and they are appreciating. So if we make ourself in India a nice program-already they are eager to take—then they will take more and more. And that will glorify India's prestige. So everything is ready there? Oh, here. You have got that letter. You can... (end)