Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran
Iran
13 Mar

Prabhupada: How long you have come here in Iran?

Ambassador: Nice to see you again. Not that I have felt that far away.

Prabhupada: You are looking little reduced than before, in health.

Ambassador: Oh, perhaps slightly older.

Prabhupada: You are not as old as I am. What is your age?

Ambassador: I am fifty-six.

Prabhupada: Oh, you are just like my child. My first child was born 1921. What is your birth date?

Ambassador: That was three years earlier. So there you are.

Prabhupada: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education, English court, English-manufactured goods, in this way.

Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?

Prabhupada: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset.

Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)

Prabhupada: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia—he was governor of Bengal—he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all.

Ambassador: But God uses whatever material is there and He used him.

Prabhupada: No, it was God's desire. You see? Without His desire, otherwise how such a vast British power could be driven away by the noncooperation movement? Of course, it was very nicely planned because the Britishers were ruling over India by the cooperation of the Indian.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: So when that cooperation was withdrawn, naturally they could not... They were trying to the last point, but when the Subhas Bose's organization, INA... You have studied that Indian history. Yes. INA. Indian National Army. So this National Army was formed by Subhas Candra Bose outside India with the cooperation of Hitler and Tojo. He's formed that, what is called, Indian government outside India, the INA, the soldiers... The INA soldiers means all the soldiers that were arrested in the battlefield, they were given to Subhas Candra Bose, either by the Japanese or by the Germans. So the soldiers took this opportunity; they voluntarily surrendered to the enemy. So when the Britishers understood that the soldiers, Indian soldiers, are now noncooperating, then they decided, "No, no more. It is not possible." So they voluntarily withdrew, that Sir Sirpiting(?) Lawrence, the secretary of state for India. Then they voluntarily settled up. And they settled up means the last parting kick was partition-Pakistan and India. And they partitioned in such a way that these two people will fight everlong. That is going on. They are very good politicians. So after all, it is all... There is a verse in the Bhagavad-gita:

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisá¹­o
mattaḥ; smrtir jñanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam
vedanta-vid vedanta-krd ca aham
[Bg. 15.15]

Krsna said that "I am in everyone's heart." Sarvasya. Sarvasya ca aham hrdi. Hrdi means the heart. Sannivisṭaḥ;: "I am there." So He is witnessing everything. So Britishers would have been... They were accepted by the Indians very nicely. People liked, because after the Mohammedan period, when the Britishers came, they did something which was very, very nice for the Indians, and the Indians, they liked them very much. Later on, they became too much greedy. For their own men they wanted to sacrifice everything Indian. So that Jalianwala-bagh. Then the Gandhi came and took this vow that "The Britishers must go, quit India." So Britishers got a very good opportunity for world unity under British Empire. But their only policy was that to exploit others and enrich London. That was their bad policy, yes. They should have ruled for the benefit of the people. Then British rule was very nice.

Ambassador: If they hadn't had such a guilty conscience themselves...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: ...they wouldn't have left easily.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, there was no need. Every country requires good government. So if somebody gives good government and keeps the people nice, happy, and people hasn't got any interest that the... Now they have made like that. Formerly, at least in India, they didn't care whether it is being ruled by the Mohammedans or by the Englishmen or foreign... They wanted peaceful life, that's all. So the Mohammedans, they made their home in India, the Moguls. They were not exploiting India and taking the money outside. Although the Moguls were very luxurious, but they were spending money in India, India's money in India. And, of course, they accuse, the Mohammedan government was very bad. But I think if it was so bad, how they could rule over India for eight hundred years? And in those days Indians were in their own culture. They did not lose their culture, Hindu culture. The Britishers peacefully killed the Hindu culture, Vedic culture, yes.

Ambassador: I saw where they killed it much more effectively, and that was in Ceylon.

Prabhupada: Ceylon, oh.

Ambassador: India's too big to kill, so it lived. But Ceylon was practically finished. There is nothing of its own left. They had to reinvent it after they got rid of the British.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: They'd lost their dance. They'd lost their... Everything really national had gone.

Prabhupada: That was not...

Ambassador: Even Buddhism had gone. It was revived by foreigners.

Prabhupada: Oh, Dutch. Dutch people, there were.

Ambassador: Germans especially. But now may I ask you while I have the chance? You have had so much to do with bringing the dharma to the West. What is your idea? What is your mission? It seems to me, in many ways there is a transfer of the essential spirit going West, because the interest is there.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: And what is left in the East is so often just the materialism imitated from the West among many young people now.

Prabhupada: Where, in the East? Yes.

Ambassador: In the East. So there's been a crossover taking place.

Prabhupada: Hm, yes.

Ambassador: Do you see it like that?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. In Western countries they are now fed up with this materialistic way of life. And I think it will very soon collapse, the Western way of life. And naturally the next enquiry is spiritual.

Ambassador: Yes, it's already beginning.

Prabhupada: Yes. Athato brahma jijñasa. The material life means animal life.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: So when the animal comes to higher consciousness, that is spiritual consciousness. We are combined at the present moment. We are actually spiritual, but some way or other, we have come in contact with matter, and we are covered by the material body, and... But we cannot become happy with this material interest. That's a fact. Just like the fish cannot be happy on the land. The example is: just like the other day we saw one crocodile. One or two... two, three?

Paramahamsa: Two or three.

Prabhupada: In where?

Paramahamsa: Caracas.

Prabhupada: Caracas, yes. So one of the crocodile was on the land, and two were in the water. So in the water they were very living, alive. But in the land it was like dead.

Ambassador: I had two crocodiles in my bath in Delhi for a month.

Prabhupada: Oh, accha. You like them very much?

Ambassador: Given by the chief minister of Rajastan, and I had to get them to Canada.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can love most things, but not crocodiles.

Prabhupada: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, paná¸itaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18]. Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma na socati na ka..., samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54]. Samaḥ; sarvesu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life—equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.

Ambassador: Of course.

Prabhupada: Not possible. If they unite, if they try to unite on Krsna consciousness, then it is possible. Otherwise not possible. But we are all part and parcel of God. Accidentally, or somehow or other, we are now all differently dressed although we are one. They have to come to this understanding. Upadhi, designation. Now just like you are Canadian; I am Indian. Then I was just... In the noon I was thinking about the, what is called, goo goo, dodo? Do? The bird? Do? What is called? There is one class of bird, do?

Atreya Ṛsi: Doves, doves.

Prabhupada: So there are doves, there are pigeons, there are sparrows, there are crows. Now Iran, the same doves, same... Why they are not called "Iranian sparrow"? Why they are called only sparrow?

Ambassador: (chuckles) It's only people.

Prabhupada: So simply we have designated, "Iranian," "Indian," and "Canadian," "German," this, that. So we have to give up this designation. Then there will be unity. Otherwise not. But they are very much proud of this designation. Therefore bhakti means sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], when one is completely free from designation. The designation is material. It has nothing to do with spiritual life. And the whole world is being ruled by designation. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that," "I am that." Aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], this is.

Ambassador: There is a hierarchy of consciousness, of course. But it's not...

Prabhupada: So that consciousness should be without designation. If I try to develop my consciousness with designation, it will not be effective. It will not be effective at least in the matter of advancing spiritual consciousness. That we have to give up. Now in our Krsna consciousness movement we have got men from all parts of the world, but they are not thinking in terms of their original national designation. They are not thinking. They do not think that they are American or they are Indian or Canadian or African or Hindu, brahmana, ksatriya, vai..., nothing of the sort.

Ambassador: Of course, there can be ambition that is essentially ego attached to an idea of achieving consciousness also.

Prabhupada: That consciousness will not help him. That will rather check him.

Ambassador: Yes, exactly.

Prabhupada: Because in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, if I die with designation, then I will have to accept again the body. So the mind is the criterion, contamination. We get different types of body on account of mind being contaminated.

Ambassador: Contaminated.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to accept similar body, by nature's way. Karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Because the mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, he got this body. There are three qualities: sattva-guna, raja-guna, tamo-guna. Now you mix up. By first mixing it becomes nine, and again mixing up, it becomes eighty-one. And each quality, there are thousands and thousands of variety. And that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of forms of life. So it is very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education, that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different body, and in this way he remains materially entangled. And the real relief is to get him out of this bodily concept of life and advance in spiritual concept of...

Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind.

Prabhupada: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to get out of this material body. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. This is required, in Bhagavad-gita. After giving up this body no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhagavata says, pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yaḥ; samupeta-mrtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education. And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. [break] ...in his original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Krsna consciousness movement means that—to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is Krsna consciousness. This is...

Ambassador: Well, this in one form or another is the aim of any true tradition.

Prabhupada: Hmm? True?

Ambassador: Tradition.

Prabhupada: Tradition?

Ambassador: Religion.

Prabhupada: No. Tradition, religion, they are all material. They are also all designation. I am thinking I am Hindu, you are thinking you are Christian, he is thinking as Buddhist—these are all designation.

Ambassador: Within each of these there is the esoteric.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is material. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up all this type of false religion." Mam ekam saranam vraja. That means come to Krsna consciousness. Ekam, only one. So unless one becomes fully Krsna conscious, he is in trouble of this material condition. And our difficulty is that when we want to convince another person about Krsna consciousness, he thinks that "I am Hindu, I am Christian, I am Mohammedan, so they are trying to proselytize me." That is the difficulty.

Ambassador: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you are saying.

Prabhupada: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first-class which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what is the designation. But where is that happening?

Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think...

Prabhupada: No. The influence should be only Krsna, or God. Krsna, when we speak of "Krsna"—God. But they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act, where does He live, what is His form, what is His qualities—nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all this, about God?" They do not know. What do you think, Atreya? Have they any clear conception of God? They imagine something. If they think of God at all... First of all, generally they think of impersonal or void. Just like the Buddhists. They think God is zero. And others, they think that God has no form. The two classes. The Hindus they think, "Yes, God has no particular form, but He has got many forms. And you can imagine any one of them." That is Sankara, the pañcopasana. But still, Sankara is very careful. He has given five particular forms. The goddess Durga, Lord Visnu, Lord Siva, the sun, then... Therefore there are a section who are the sun worshiper, or fire worshiper. Original Iranians were like that. So that is Vedic culture. There... Vedic culture means there are many demigods, but the original God is accepted-Visnu. And original to Visnu is Krsna. Isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ; sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ; [Bs. 5.1]. And Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior form or superior authority than Me." And that is confirmed by Lord Brahma. Isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ; [Bs. 5.1]. Isvaraḥ; means controller. There are different grades of controller, but the supreme controller is Krsna. And Krsna says, mam ekam: "Unto Me alone." (to devotee:) What is that?

Parivrajakacarya: It is apple juice.

Prabhupada: So our Krsna consciousness movement is scientific, authorized. People has to give little attention. Then they will understand. Therefore we are publishing so many books, only about Krsna. In every page you will find "Krsna, Krsna, Krsna." Either in Krsna book or in Caitanya-caritamrta or in the Bhagavata or in The Nectar of Devotion or in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, the word is Krsna. That is simply explained in different way.

Ambassador: What does the word actually mean? Kr is the root for "making," isn't it?

Prabhupada: Krsna? Yes, krs. Krs means karsati, "attraction" or "cultivating." "Cultivation." Just like cultivator, he, digging the earth, that is also karsati. And there is another word in Bhagavad-gita, manaḥ; sasṭhani indriyani..., karsati. Find out this verse. Manaḥ;-sasṭhani indriyani prakrti-sthani karsati. Fifteenth Chapter. Karsati. That is from krs.

Ambassador: Krs, then, has attractiveness and it has cultivator.

Prabhupada: And cultivating, yes.

Ambassador: Yes. In Greek my name is also "cultivate." In Greek the origin of my name is "cultivate." Gheragoss.(?)

Prabhupada: And this Greek work is kristo. There is a word in Greek. It is called kristo. And Krsna is sometimes pronounced by ordinary man as Krsta. And that kristo word means "love," if I am not wrong, that Greek word. And from that kristo the word Christ has come.

Ambassador: Karitas(?), yes.

Prabhupada: So there is some connection of Krsna with these things. What is that?

Ambassador: There are so many parallels between Krsna and Christ.

Prabhupada: So many.

Ambassador: "Born in the cave." Yes.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Nitai:

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutaḥ; sanatanaḥ;
manaḥ;-sasṭhanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."

Prabhupada: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Krsna means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United Nation—the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Krsna solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love.

Ambassador: Yes, it's the interattractiveness even in a planetary scale that holds the world.

Prabhupada: And Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives very shortcut formula that "You sit together, chant Hare Krsna, and everything will be solved." Very simple thing: "Sit together and chant Hare Krsna." That also they will not do. There is no loss. Let us make an experiment—that also we are not executing. What is the loss? If we sit together and chant Hare Krsna we are not losing anything. If there is some gain, why not make an experiment? So if you propose this to the United Nation, he'll think of me, "A crazy fellow."

Ambassador: Like we did together in Delhi.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. You have seen it. They were very much eager. They were very much eager: "Swamiji continue." And the others, like Communist and others, they became upset. I have seen many big, big officers. They were chanting, returning from the office in the office dress, and they were chanting and dancing. And you have seen the crowd, twenty thousand, thirty thousand people. The same thing happened in Calcutta. Now the government did not give us again that land. Yes. Last time when we held that conference in Delhi...

Paramahamsa: On the LIC Grounds?

Prabhupada: No, no, no. They gave us that Tal Kotara Park, you know? That is in the jungle. Nobody could reach there, and they gave us place there. (Ambassador laughs) Still, there were not less ten thousand people. It was not easily approachable. The motorcar cannot go. You have to leave your car three miles away to come there.

Ambassador: I know the place.

Prabhupada: Yes. You know very well. You are (were?) in Delhi.

Ambassador: It is a difficult thing to get to.

Prabhupada: Yes. And they gave us place. At the last moment they rejected. First of all they gave. Then, at the last moment, the municipality said, "No, this land cannot be given to any religious function." Rejected. And offered, "If you like, you can take this place." So we had no other alternative to accept it. We advertised that "We are going to hold this ceremony," and the authority rejected at the eleventh hour and offered the Tal Kotara place. We had to accept it. And the government indirectly giving us so many hindrances in India. Yes. They do not like. One of the important member of the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company, that India is naturally inclined to Krsna. And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful.

Ambassador: What was your connection with McGill? I heard from...

Prabhupada: (Sic:) McGill. McGill I was...

Ambassador: You preached (?) first in McGill?

Prabhupada: No, I was lecturing only.

Atreya Ṛsi: Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's [break]

Prabhupada: He sent his first book...

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult, Hare Krsna movement. I think I have given this hint in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

Nitai: Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Yes.

Ambassador: Well, I am very happy to have had this chance to be with you. How long will you be here?

Prabhupada" :Two days.

Ambassador: That's all. And then?

Prabhupada: I am going to India. We have to hold the Lord Caitanya's birthday anniversary. And open our Vrndavana temple. In Bombay we have got very nice land purchased, and the government will not give us sanction for the temple. The... I approached the Maharastra governor through another friend governor. The governor of Uttar Pradesh, he is my friend. So I explained to him, "This this is the position. You request the governor to give me sanction." So he has very ardently requested, explaining the whole thing about my position, my... He is member of this movement, and still, he is neglecting. He has said no. Yet... But no answer.

Ambassador: You know, when I had Mr. Trudeau, our prime minister, visiting India in '71, first place I took him was Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Who?

Ambassador: Our prime minister of Canada, Mr. Trudeau.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Ambassador: So we went the first place...

Prabhupada: Vrndavana.

Ambassador: Vrndavana temple.

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana still there is little glimpse of spiritual ideas in India. But the government is trying to spoil this place also. Starting oil refinery.

Ambassador: In Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ambassador: And that in the name of progress. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. They have already opened some factory. One factory is there in Mathura, in... What is? Who preserve the fruits in cans, what they are called?

Parivrajakacarya: Cannery.

Prabhupada: Cannery? Anyway, so when they boil this onion, up to ten miles the good smell spread. (laughter) You see? And the whole atmosphere of Vrndavana is spoiled. Similarly, they are trying to refine oil, and the refuse will be thrown in the Yamuna. So the river Yamuna will be spoiled. Nobody will go to take bath. This is Indian government's policy. They think that this so-called spiritual fanaticism of India is the cause of India's material degradation. So this must be killed. Like the Russians.

Ambassador: Um hm. I know they think that sometimes. Even here there are people who think that.

Prabhupada: Oh, they are thinking like that? But I heard that the king is very pious.

Ambassador: One of the big people here, I said to him—after I argued about this for hours—I said, "You are Western and I am Eastern, not the other way around." (laughs) Thank you very much. I shall take your leave?

Prabhupada: So, give him prasada. Give him the whole plate. (laughs) You can take whole plate. So I am very glad to see you.

Ambassador: Yes. And she was hoping to come later, but if you're only going to be here two days I don't know whether she will...

Paramahamsa: We're leaving the 15th, evening of the 15th.

Ambassador: Yes, but this is the 13th now. I will take this to her. Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Krsna.

Ambassador: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Jaya. (Ambassador apparently leaves) [break] (end)