Morning Walk
Bombay
18 Dec

Prabhupada:.... very enthusiastic.

Dr. Patel: I got up very early today.

Prabhupada: By the grace of Krsna keeping good health.

Dr. Patel: Yes, I have got...

Prabhupada: You never use the shoes.

Dr. Patel: But on sand this shoeless, this walking it is very...

Prabhupada: Nehi, it is practice. So remember maha jasha advertised.

Indian man: It is medicine.

Prabhupada: No, not medicine.

Dr. Patel: I practice..., all the time.

Indian man: (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: But sannyasis walk without anything.

Prabhupada: First rate is rupees ninety-five. And the second one?

Giriraja: The second one is seventy, but he thinks that he can get it down to sixty-five.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi comment about dirt)

Prabhupada: New York is the dirtiest. New York. There you'll find so many of these papers scattered. In New York. Even the park, the most celebrated park, Central Park, they are all full of dirt.

Giriraja: The city is going bankrupt.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Which?

Giriraja: New York City.

Dr. Patel: America will never go bankrupt so far material prosperity is concerned. Already some people say...

Prabhupada: There is no guarantee, sir.

Dr. Patel: No, there is (Hindi, everyone laughs). I'm sorry. Your words. Very, very crafty people in business. Nobody can beat the Americans in business. They are monopolizing the world of business today. The prosperity of America is due to the, all the (indistinct). It is correct. (pause) This is Kali-yuga. People are so faithless, human race has become faithless. They have no faith in God, they no faith in themselves, and then their friends and other human beings also.

Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Modern..., not faithless: animals. Yes. Dvipada pasu, two-legged animals. Yes. They are animal, but two legs. That is the exact word used in Bhagavata. Two-legged animals. Dvipada, dvipada-pasu.

Dr. Patel: I think the human race should become all right by getting all these mark from God, all these...

Prabhupada: That is going on. That is going...

Dr. Patel: This war, last, second war was so horrible, and the third will perhaps be finishing the whole cosmos.

Prabhupada: That war is always there. But still they remain two-legged animals. It requires education.

Dr. Patel: But sir, I often wonder that Jesus Christ was so wonderful, I mean brotherhood and all these things, and these, practically people following his creed are warring like this.

Prabhupada: No, who is following our Gita?

Dr. Patel: Hm hm, I mean practically why...

Prabhupada: Why do you blame them? We are also doing. Nobody is following. That is animalism. They have got direction, but they won't follow. (aside:) Hare Krsna! Jaya! Jaya! Mr. Sar, why don't you come and see how things are going on. You are expert in...

Mr. Sar: Nicely sir. I see it every day. Very good concrete building.

Prabhupada: So if there is any defect.

Mr. Sar: It is perfectly...,

Prabhupada: Now we want to finish this. If you have got any good contact on labor?

Mr. Sar: Contact labor? Labor contact?

Prabhupada: Yes. (some short discussion) We want to finish as soon as possible and give another set of contract. Labor contract.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I'll try to find out. (some discussion about contractors)

Prabhupada: [break] ...is the form where the animal can take education and become a human being.

Dr. Patel: Now these human beings they get educated from animals.

Prabhupada: No, no. This is not education. This jara avidya, material education, is no education. It doesn't require any education. This education for eating, sleeping, education, that is not education, that is cats and dogs they also know how to do it without education. Real education is brahma-vidya. Athato brahma jijñasa—this is education. So that is now given up throughout the whole world. Nobody is interested in Brahman; they are simply interested in sense gratification.

Dr. Patel: Because I think, sir, the method of education the world over is absolutely different...

Prabhupada: No, no. That is not education. The education for eating, sleeping, that is not education.

Dr. Patel: The way we were educating, our forefathers are educating their children, by this method of sending them to a guru in an asrama...

Prabhupada: That is real education.

Dr. Patel: And then they are prepared right from the brahmacari asrama for the highest goal, till they become a sannyasi. Here he, he's neither this nor there.

Prabhupada: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Canakya Panḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated. He said,

matrvat para-daresu
para-dravyesu losá¹­ravat
atmavat sarva-bhutesu
yaḥ; pasyati sa panḍitaḥ;

Here is panḍita. What is he? Matrvat para-daresu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyesu losṭravat: and other's property, possessions, just like garbage. And atmavat-sarva bhutesu: and feeling for everyone as he himself is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is considered educated. He never says these degrees. No.

Dr. Patel: These degrees are artifacts.

Prabhupada: That is upadhi. Education is to become upadhi-less. Sarvopadhi vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. But they are increasing upadhi.

Dr. Patel: People think so far as they are concerned that education means giving the knowledge of how to read and write. I think it is the knowledge and not the education. The education is something different, that trains up your mind how to think, how to, I mean, separate grain from the chaff.

Prabhupada: Education means ethical. Athato brahma jijñasa. This is education.

Dr. Patel: No, but I mean to say, you must know how to separate the grain from the chaff.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita begins education, instruction. Immediately He puts forward that you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. Where is such education? Everyone is thinking, "You are this body." "You are Indian, you are American, you are Hindu, you are Muslim." What is education? Bhagavad-gita says you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. And now education means be nationalist. Drive away and bark...

Dr. Patel: (something about passport in Hindi)

Prabhupada: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahatma Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India." "Quit India."

Dr. Patel: No, he did not mean quit India. He meant "You quit your matter of ruling." I mean actually...

Prabhupada: It was the exact word, "Quit India."

Dr. Patel: You know it more than me, sir, that in 1929 he told Britishers that "You rule India from the basis of they are ruling Canada." So he offered to give them ultimatum. Britishers did know real stuff of India, otherwise they would have acted better.

Prabhupada: That's not.... As soon as you think "He is my enemy and he is my friend," then there is no education. That's all. This is standard of education. Atmavat sarva-bhutesu. That is education. Sama darsinaḥ;. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini suni caiva [Bg. 5.18]. That is education. That is.... Krsna says, nanu socanti panḍitaḥ;. Nanu socanti panḍitaḥ;. "Ah, you are rascal." It is not the business of the panḍita to think like that. He never thought that the Kauravas were the enemy. No. That is not the fact. It is duty to fight the just cause. That was His instruction.

Dr. Patel: Mr. Nehru said Krsna was the greatest war-monger.

Prabhupada: And he is a rascal.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) He was saying so. He thought himself to be very big man. He thought himself...

Prabhupada: Everyone thinks. Everyone thinks. That is asuric position—"Who is like me."

Dr. Patel: (quotes some Sanskrit) That is asuric.

Prabhupada: And bhakta... Caitanya Mahaprabhu is teaching trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna. There is no education; therefore Krsna has spoken of these people as muḍha. "No, they are educated. They have passed so many examination"—mayayapahrta-jñana. This kind of education has no value because they are forgetting the real point of education. mayayapahrta-jñana asuram bhavam asritaḥ; [Bg. 7.15].

Dr. Patel: So what is asuri, would be...

Prabhupada: Asuri means godlessness. "There is no God; I am God."

Dr. Patel: Believing in the...

Prabhupada: No, no. "There is no God. I am God." What is that beginning? Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na vidur asura ajana (sic) [Bg. 16.7], and? There is no creator? What is the exact word?

Harikesa: Apratisá¹­ham.

Prabhupada: Apratisá¹­ham. There is no cause of this creation. Kama-haitukam: it has taken place just like a man becomes lusty by seeing a woman and he begets a child. This is the cause, this rascal desire. That's all.

Dr. Patel: Kim kama-haitukam.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) That is the Sankhya philosophers. That is their theory. Prakrti and purusa come in contact by chance, and there is creation. Not God created. Their theory is, the prakrti and purusa, they come in contact by chance, and there is creation.

Dr. Patel: But sir, this Sankhya philosophy also believes in Vedas. And Vedas says sa aik sata.

Prabhupada: No, no. Sankhya philosophy by the original Kapila, that is on the basis of Vedas. And this later Sankhya philosophy...

Dr. Patel: Must be some another rascal.

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) Now you have learned! (everyone laughs very loudly)

Dr. Patel: I am learning. (laughs raucously)

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! There are two sankhyas. Kapila. One Kapila is..., therefore he is described everywhere as devahuti-putra.

Dr. Patel: Kapila, the basis of the yoga.

Prabhupada: No, yoga is Patanjali. Asá¹­anga. And yoga is also there in Bhagavad-gita.

Dr. Patel: Sankhya is the goal by knowledge, and yoga is by...

Prabhupada: Yoga.... Actually yoga means to keep the mind fixed up, yoga indriya samyama, to control the mind and the senses. That is yoga. Then other activities. If your mind is not controlled, you are in disturbed condition, then you cannot perform it. So it is a process to control the mind. And if one is able to control the mind, then he becomes real yogi, and at that time, dhyanavasthita, meditation. Dhyanavasthita tad gatena manasa pasyanti yam yogi. Then he sees the Paramatma always. That is perfection of the.... (aside to passerby:) Hare Krsna, Jaya! (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: All the sastras have been spoken out by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita totally.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is substance. Summary of all Vedas. He says therefore, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo.

Dr. Patel: (some muttering in back) Ha. He said yogo apra... yoga can be caught and lost also. But bhakti cannot be lost.

Indian man: What is the any question of lost? How do you get disjoined with the God?

Dr. Patel: Listen, if you are artificially joined, then you are dejoined.

Indian man: No, no. Then it is not yoga at all. Then you stop, automatically (indistinct).

Dr. Patel: That is why (indistinct).

Indian man: Once then you say yoga then you are entering. You are not outside it.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) There are so many types of yoga, sir, as you know.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita summarizes, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg. 6.47]. That is real yogi.

Dr. Patel: Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana sa me yuktatamo mataḥ;. That is the highest yoga.

Indian man: Yoga means karmendriya-dharanam. Where is the question of yoga...

Dr. Patel: No, no. When the indriya-dharanam is not (indistinct) it becomes (Hindi). Then it is faith, then yoga is there.

Prabhupada: Yes, yoga indriya-samanam. The result of yoga is control-mind and senses, sama, dama.

Dr. Patel: So many types of yoga, even bhakti is called a yoga. Bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupada: Yes, yoga. Everything is yoga which links up.

Dr. Patel: (talking of a passerby) He used to join, used to join with yoga as (indistinct) with youth.

Prabhupada: So, we shall return?

Dr. Patel: Seven o'clock. Yes.

Prabhupada: .... yoga. Viyoga, viyoga means disconnected. Yoga and viyoga, the opposite is viyoga. So viyoga is material.

Dr. Patel: Separation.

Prabhupada: Bhinna me prakrti asá¹­adha [Bg. 7.4]. Those who are connected with this material energy, they are apparently viyoga. So we have to attain for yoga. That means turn back again back to Godhead. That is yoga.

Dr. Patel: He quoted that thing from Kathopanisad.

Prabhupada: Hm, what is that?

Dr. Patel: Yogo bhavateo. Yoga can be caught and can be lost. Yoga can be caught and can be lost. So that type of yoga. Not this bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupada: No, this is lost, when you are in materially, that is lost. And when you are spiritually joined, that is gained. Yoga and viyoga. Tasmad yogi bhavarjuna, Krsna says Arjuna to become yogi, bhakti-yogi.

Dr. Patel: Yoginam api sarvesam yogatena antaratmana [Bg. 6.47], and then, er,...

Prabhupada: In another place...

Dr. Patel: Yo mam bhajate ananya bhak.... sa me yuktatamo mataḥ;. Yogo mam bhajate ananya bhak.

Prabhupada: Sa sannyasi sa yogi ca.

anasritaḥ; karma-phalam
karyam karma karoti yaḥ;
sa sannyasi ca yogi ca
na niragnir na cakriyaḥ;
[Bg. 6.1]

(Hindi) No, akriya means no material activities, only spiritual activities. That is akriya. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya! (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: Sir, this karma and (indistinct) it is said, akarma means knowledge, and karma means that karma which binds you with this.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dr. Patel: That karma which you do which binds with the...

Prabhupada: Karma means you are implicated with the result. That is karma. And vikarma...

Dr. Patel:

kim karma kim akarmeti
kavayo'py atra mohitaḥ;
tat te karma pravaksyami
yaj-jñatva moksyase 'subhat

That karma which you do without any links on it, for the sake of God, tat tat karma tu kaunteya sa sannyasi ca...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yajñartha-karma, that is real. Yajña...

Dr. Patel: That is what he has explained.

Prabhupada: Yajñartha means for the satisfaction...

Dr. Patel: Yajña means for Visnu.

Prabhupada: Yes, yajña means Visnu. For the satisfaction of Visnu, one has to offer. And Prahlada Maharaja therefore says that these rascals, they do not know. Na te vidhuḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum. These rascals, they do not know what is real self-interest. Svartha-gatim.

Dr. Patel: But they are, they are body conscious. So the svartha body is this one.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are not soul conscious because they...

Prabhupada: Therefore they are na te vidhuḥ;. They are working hard that "This is my interest." But actually that is not his interest.... (aside:) Hare Krsna!

Dr. Patel: The interest of the body.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is not in his interest because it is changing. Suppose a person comes to a foreign place, and he becomes only interested in where he is staying, and after a week he is driven away. Then what is interest? You are eternal; you must have eternal interest.

Dr. Patel: That education comes from the Vedas.

Prabhupada: Therefore we say that there is no education. They do not know what is interest. They are making a small limitation, that "This is my country. My interest is to become a national. I will sacrifice my life for this, that, this..." Whole world is going on like this. Na te vidhuḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum.

Dr. Patel: And, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. That is brahmacari. Where is that education?

Dr. Patel: This education are given to the Vaisnavas in their homes. They are Vaisnavas. But then so-called Vaisnavas, many of them they are ruthless. Ruthless, absolutely ruthless...

Prabhupada: (indistinct), ksatriyas, there is no (indistinct) ksatriya...

Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say...

Prabhupada: ...everyone is sudra.

Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in business. They don't consider that they are this soul; they consider the body comforts and body...

Prabhupada: That is sudra. One has to become a brahmana, jñanam. But they have no knowledge; therefore they are sudra. Brahmana means jñanam, vijñanam and astikya: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma-jña. Brahma jñanarthi brahmana. So where is brahmana? All sudras. Kalau sudra sambhava—especially in this age of Kali, everyone is sudra, or less than sudra. But still Krsna gives the opportunity striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te'pi yanti param gatim. How? Mam hi partha vyapasritya [Bg. 9.32], he may take to Krsna consciousness. Even the sudras, they also.

Dr. Patel: Just like the essence of the Vedic knowledge has been given in the story form in the Bhagavata. That is how these people could understand that. These...

Prabhupada: It is not story. It is history...

Dr. Patel: No, no, some are stories and divya stories.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is history and philosophy. They are not stories. Where it is a story, it is mentioned it is like a story. Just like this bhavarthabdhi.. That is mentioned there. There are many such statements which is not history, but, what is called? Instruction. But they take everything, "It is fabulous."

Dr. Patel: From the lives from the so many saints, and...

Prabhupada: (Sanskrit) If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhagavatam. Vidvams cakre satvata. Vidvam means Vyasadeva. He compiled Bhagavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ; svartha-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Krsna says sarva-dharman: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyasadeva says, anarthopasamam saksad... These unnecessary engagements cannot be given up, anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje [SB 1.7.6]. To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyajanato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajanata. Ajanato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidya... Vyasadeva is vidvan, vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. Anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasya ajanataḥ;. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, Hm? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Therefore Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru." Yes. So many gurus required. Amara ajñaya guru haya tara ei desa, wherever you are living, you just try to deliver your family, your neighborhood, your friends. Deliver, tara. Tara means deliver. "How can I do it? I am not a guru; I am a common..." "No. You have to become a guru." "How?" Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa': [Cc. Madhya 7.128] simply repeat the instruction given by Krsna. Then you will become guru.

Dr. Patel: But for the samsaris, sir...

Prabhupada: Samsaris, (indistinct) for the samsaris. When Krsna says, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14], this is for samsaris. Saintly person doesn't require anna. It is meant for the samsari. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Catur-varnyam maya srsá¹­am: [Bg. 4.13] This division of society is meant for the samsari, to control division of labor. Everything is for the samsari. It is not meant for the paramahamsa. Paramahamsa-samhita is Bhagavata. This is ABC. These people, they do not understand even the ABC. This is the difficulty. They cannot learn even the ABCD of spiritual knowledge.

Dr. Patel:

sreyo hi jñanam abhyasaj
jñanad dhyanam visisyate
dhyanat karma-phala-tyagas
tyagac chantir anantaram

Whether tyaga is meant for the samsaris?

Prabhupada: Tyagat means one must be disgusted with this material way of life. This is tyaga. But they are being educated to be more attached to this material world.

Dr. Patel: This modern education.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: How to make a successful life. Like...

Prabhupada: Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. That is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga also, vidya. Vyasadeva also says, anarthopasanam saksad bhakti-yogam. To get rid of this entanglement, unnecessary things, the only means is bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Modern advancement of science is actually here, entangle the man in more and more bonds. But by raising, creating more bonds for comfort, comfortable life...

Prabhupada: What comfort?

Dr. Patel: Comfortable life means...

Prabhupada: That is another...

Dr.Patel: Comfortable life means comfort of the body.

Prabhupada: To get a comfortable life, one has to work so hard: "Where is comfort?"

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes. That is his foolishness. In Europe they actually run in the morning to go to their work. They run like mad dogs.

Prabhupada: But we are also...

Dr. Patel: They may start running now. They are following them.

Prabhupada: No...

Dr. Patel: And I remember that I used to laugh, the way they were running in the work, sir.

Prabhupada: That is here also. Everywhere. Therefore Bhagavata says, "No, no, no. This is not life." Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kasá¹­an kaman [SB 5.5.1]. So much labor for getting your bread. That is immediately stopped.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is the misfortune. And how it started, this ball? Who made the ball rolling? He, he makes the ball. This is modern education.

Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone is the architect of his own fortune.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I talk of the samasá¹­i sir. He...

Prabhupada: Samasá¹­i, sama and asá¹­i together makes samasá¹­i. If you become devotee, I become devotee, everyone becomes.... Then samasá¹­i, devotee. And if you are nondevotee, I'm a nondevotee, then.... Combination of nondevotees. That's all. We have to therefore change this group, where we shall live. Satam prasanga mama virya sambhava bhavanti nitkarma. (indistinct) If you live with the devotees, then these topics of transcendental subject matter becomes palatable. Otherwise it is nonpalatable. Therefore they do not like to come to the temple to hear our lecture. Nonpalatable.

Dr. Patel: You fire them! (raucous laugh)

Prabhupada: No. How can I say anything which is not spoken by Krsna? Krsna is.... Krsna says, na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante naradhama mayayapahrta-jñana [Bg. 7.15]. So we have got this test: if anyone has no interest in Krsna, he must be with these groups, that's all. Duskrtina, muḍha, naradhama. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna-upadesa' [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So how can I violate?

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupada: Both ways. I cannot violate. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that you simply speak what Krsna has said, and Krsna says that anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is a rascal. He is a most sinful man, he is the lowest of mankind. So why shall I not say? It is not firing; it is telling the truth. (laughs with Patel) But I am not loser. I am, I do not make any compromise. All these my students ask, I never made any compromise. But still they understand, and they are with me.

Dr. Patel: But we are also with you.

Prabhupada: No, I mean to say, those who are outsiders. In Los Angeles, so many scientists used to come, so after talking with them, I used to say, "You are demon, you are rascal." And they tolerated. (everyone laughing) And they remained for two hours talking and then taking prasadam. They were happy that I called them demons and rascals.

Dr. Patel: Well you have to call them fools also. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Well, when I say rascal it includes everything. (laughing) In Bengal it is said, "When I curse somebody, 'You die!' then all everything it is included, finished! You die." (Hindi)

bharata bhumite manusya haila janma yara
janma sarthaka kari kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

This is Indian birth. To understand the whole Vedic philosophy and to give this knowledge to everyone. That is para-upakara.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) Then you become mukta-sangaḥ; samacara.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All the work should be done for God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our duty. Just like a servant and master. What is the duty of a servant? Simply you wait for the order of the master. And execute. That's all. Then he's perfect servant. He doesn't require any qualification. Simply if he's ready, the master will order: "I will do." That's all. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityaja mam ekam, "Be ready always, what I say, direct." And Rupa Goswami says, anukulyena-krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Anukulyena, favorably. Always wait, as Krsna becomes satisfied, for the order. Then you are perfect. Anukulyena-krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttamam. That is first-class bhakti. It doesn't require any education. Just like Hanumanji. He was not born in a human society even, but he was always ready to execute the order of Lord Ramacandra. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: ...human society (indistinct) support the devotee.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Support the right man who is after Bhagavan, not to the rascals. That is the problem. Datavyam iti yad danam tad sattvikam. Here is the person. Here, one has dedicated his whole life for Bhagavan, give everything to him. That is danam. Danam sattvikam rajasi tamasi. One is a rascal, then what is the use of giving him dana?

Dr. Patel: Even you do not give dana, he will take away by thievery.

Prabhupada: Anyway, that is a misuse. Misuse.

Dr. Patel: Danam, danam... (quotes Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: If you make tamasic dana, then you become implicated with his sinful activities. Suppose you want to kill somebody, and you're asking, "Can you give me a nice knife?" "What you will do?" "I shall kill that man." "All right, take it, danam. I am giving you in charity." So he will be implicated. In the court, if it is known that that man supplied the knife, "Arrest him. Bring him immediately."

Dr. Patel: So what do you think about this America has supplied a lot of grain free of charge to this country, and that grain is fed to the whole of this poor population, and they are not God believers?

Prabhupada: No, no. The Americans, they give to the government, and they are free. They have given to the government.

Dr. Patel: Sattvika dana.

Prabhupada: Yes. The government, Indian government, is in necessity. In necessity, "All right, give it to the government." Their duty is finished. But if the government is rascal, that is their responsibility.

Dr. Patel: But suppose you had given me a knife to mend the pencil, and I stab somebody with it. So, like that.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dr. Patel: You have done a dana to me, giving your knife to mend my pencil, or some useful work, and I stab somebody with the penknife, so...

Prabhupada: That is your responsibility.

Dr. Patel: No, but then the dana that you did was not tamasic. Still, it has ended in tamasic action.

Prabhupada: Yes, everything. Just like the money. Money is not material. You can spend it for constructing a temple for Krsna. Then it is not material; it is spiritual. Everything originally..., nothing is material. But when it is not used for Krsna, that is material. Otherwise, isavasyam idam sarvam tena.... tyaktena bhuñjitha [Iso mantra 1]. If everything is belonging to Krsna, how it can be material. He is spirit, so everything belongs to Him, so how it can be material? Material means when Krsna's things are not used for Krsna, for oneself, that is material.

Dr. Patel: And that is sin also. Anything which is not...

Prabhupada: Material anything you do, yajñarthat karmano'nyatra loko yam. Anything you do, if it is not meant for Krsna, then you are criminal, immediately.

Dr. Patel: Sinful activity.

Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately. To spiritualize everything, Krsna says therefore, yat karosi yaj juhosi yat tapasyasi dadasi.... yat kurusva mad arpanam. Then it is spiritual. Immediately. Karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana.

Dr. Patel: Tad-artham karma kaunteya.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is spiritual. Yajñarthat karma, everything is there. Unless you do it for Krsna, everything is material and sinful.

Dr. Patel: That's a fact. If you are doing work tad-artham karma, then you become mukta, because there is no, I mean, taking with you anything. Mukta-sangaḥ; samacara.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like government servant, soldiers, they are killing so many; they are not responsible, because he's doing for the government. Police beats you, but he cannot bring any charge against the police. Another man, if he little slaps, you can bring charge, immediately. That is tad-artham karma kaunteya. The police and military department, they are doing for the government.

Dr. Patel: [break] ...eḥ;? Very good discussion we had this morning. And we thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna!

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (laughs)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) is sufficient. If you get one man who follows you, he is more than thousands who is...

Prabhupada: Yes, if you attend daily, I can speak daily.

Dr. Patel: I do come daily, don't I? (laughing)

Prabhupada: Then I'll speak. Just like Sukadeva Goswami, he spoke Bhagavatam, and there was only candidate Pariksit Maharaja. But he said continuously for seven days.

Dr. Patel: Those rsis came to hear.

Prabhupada: Yes, because he knew that "Here is a gentleman, he'll understand."

Dr. Patel: But I am not that.... Pariksit.... I am a fool.

Prabhupada: No, the standard is like that.

Dr. Patel: I am a fool, sir. As you have been calling me very often. It is the satsanga which really caused the (indistinct).

Prabhupada:

sadhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva-sastra kaya
lava matra sadhu sanga sarva siddhi haya

This is the version of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Dr. Patel: And when you read Bhagavata you also get the sat-sanga, because the, all the histories of so many saints...

Prabhupada: Yes, Canakya Panḍita also advised: kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sadhu samargama(?). This is..., he was a politician, and still he said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sadhu samargama, and smara nityam anityada kuru punyam avoratram. This is his advise, that give up this bad association of atheist class of man. Sadhu means devotee. Durajana means nondevotee. So kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sadhu samargama. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says like that. When He was asked by one grhastha bhakta, "What is the duty of a Vaisnava?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately said, asat-sanga tyagi ei vaisnava acara. A Vaisnava means he must give up the association of nondevotees. Then the question will be, "Who is nondevotee?" Asat-stri-sangi krsna bhakta... One who is too much attached to material enjoyment. Stri-sangi is the basic point, and one who is not a devotee of Krsna, he is asat-sanga. Asat-sanga-tyagi..., there are two lines. And the moralist, Canakya Panḍita, he also said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sadhu samargama. You give up something, you must take something. Otherwise you will not be able to stay.

Dr. Patel: Nothing can act independently.

Prabhupada: Yes, simply negative is useless. These jñanis, they simply teach negative-brahma satyam jagan mithya. But they do not take to Brahman; they simply take the one side, jagan mithya. They take the.... Brahma satyam, take to Brahman...

Dr. Patel: Then the second half they are not taking.

Prabhupada: Yes. They do not know how to remain in Brahman. No, they do not know; therefore we say rascal. You realize that you are Brahman; now your next business is to stay in Brahman. That they do not know.

Dr. Patel: Behave as Brahman. They don't behave.

Prabhupada: Ah. Either behave or stay, the same thing. Unless you become fire, you cannot stay in fire.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupada: So these people, they realize aruhya krcchrena param padam [SB 10.2.32]. By severe austerity and penances they rise to the Brahman platform, but from there they fall down. Why? Adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayaḥ;. Because brahmam platform means to be engaged in devotional service. Brahma bhuyaya kalpate. Mam ca yo'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena [Bg. 14.26]. If you want to stay on the Brahmam platform, then you must render service to Krsna. And if you simply realize that "I am Brahman," then you'll be misguided by maya: "Oh, you are the Supreme Lord. You are Bhagavan. What is the use of worshiping another Bhagavan? You are Bhagavan." maya says it in a different way. maya says that you are a rascal, but think that you are Bhagavan.

Dr. Patel: This atmarama supposed to be tolerant.

Prabhupada: So the rascals, under the dictation of maya, they are thinking "I am God," that's all. They have no intelligence even, that "How I can be God?"

Dr. Patel: Sir, even Sankaracarya has taught the kuru-bhakti. But these rascals who are following Sankaracarya, they are not following correctly. He was doing bhakti, bhaja govindam he has...

Prabhupada: Bhaja govindam bhaja govinda... He has asked, muḍha-mate. One who is rascal, he does not worship Govinda. In this he says, "You rascal, nahi nahi raksati duḥ;krn karane, prapte sannite koro marame. You have learned so much grammar, grammatical jugglery to interpret sastra in this way, that way. These things will not help you at the time of your death. You rascal, bhaja govindam." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam muḍha-mate. "You rascal!" He says muḍha! (everyone laughing)

Dr. Patel: I think the modern philosophers are misinterpreting the Sankaracarya...

Prabhupada: Because they are muḍhas. They want to remain muḍhas. That is their fault.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma na socati na kanksati samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu [Bg. 18.54]. They are not sama.

Prabhupada: Sankaracarya, because he had to deliver people from this nastika philosophy, bauddha, so for the time being, he made some compromise. The bauddha says there is no God, and he said, "Yes, there is no God. You are God." So if he realizes himself brahma-bhutaḥ;, then he'll be engaged in devotional service, that was his purpose. Unless he says that, that "Yes, it is not the fact that there is no God. There is God, but that God you are."

Dr. Patel: That is the final argument is that if there is no God, who said there is no God? And that is God. That is what he said.

Prabhupada: (laughing) So you know better than me.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I did not know this, I read it...

Prabhupada: But I know, what is his policy? His policy was to make this godless men to think of God, that "I am God." That is.... Let him be accustomed with the word God, then gradually he will understand. It is called ahangrahopasana. Aham brahmasmi. Therefore I shall worship myself. Ahangrahopasana Nikatena, jagatena, ekatena. It is mentioned in the Bhagavata, ekatena. That "I am Brahma. So I shall worship myself."

Dr. Patel: No, but he had also mentioned about bhuma purusa. That there is really a...

Prabhupada: No, there is, but this is one of the beginning stage, ekatena. "I am one," monism. Ekatena tena bauddha visatum aham. (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: That passage, ekatena bahutena bahuda visato mukham(?) That passage comprises all of the philosophies of India.

Prabhupada: Yes. Pantheism, monism, dualism.

Dr. Patel: And qualifies, I mean.... Somebody has very well commented on that particular sloka, giving all the views of Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, Jiva(?)acarya, and all the modern.... Somewhere I read, I don't know where, on that particular sloka. After all these things, acarya, acarya para...

Prabhupada: Acaryopasanam...

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Without acarya...

Prabhupada: Acaryavan puruso veda. One who has accepted acarya, he knows, he knows. Now our these European and American boys are preaching in South India, big, big acaryas, they have received them. Because they know that these boys know; latest letter. Hare Krsna! (end)