Devotee: Dr. Harrap.

Dr. Harrap: How do you do.

Dr. Muncing(?): And Dr. Muncing.

Prabhupada: Ah, thank you very much. Sit down. There is a verse... You have got first part?

Devotee: First part.

Prabhupada: Idam hi pumsas tapasaḥ; srutasya va [SB 1.5.22].

Satsvarupa: Idam?

Prabhupada: Idam hi pumsas tapasaḥ; srutasya va svisṭasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ;, avicyuto 'rthaḥ; kavibhir nirupitaḥ; [SB 1.5.22].

Satsvarupa:

idam hi pumsas tapasaḥ; srutasya va
svisṭasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ;
avicyuto 'rthaḥ; kavibhir nirupito
yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam
[SB 1.5.22]

Prabhupada: Hm. Read.

Satsvarupa: Translation: "Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Satsvarupa: Human intellect is developed for advancement of learning in art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, economics, politics, etc. By culture of such knowledge the human society can attain perfection of life. This perfection of life culminates in the realization of the Supreme Being, Visnu. The sruti therefore directs that those who are actually advanced in learning should aspire for the service of Lord Visnu. Unfortunately persons who are enamored by the external beauty of visnu-maya do not understand that culmination of perfection or self-realization depends on Visnu. Visnu-maya means sense enjoyment, which is transient and miserable. Those who are entrapped by visnu-maya utilize advancement of knowledge for sense enjoyment. Sri Narada Muni has explained that all paraphernalia of the cosmic universe is but an emanation from the Lord out of His different energies because the Lord has set in motion, by His inconceivable energy, the actions and reactions of the created manifestation. They have come to be out of His energy, they rest on His energy, and after annihilation they merge into Him. Nothing is, therefore, different from Him, but at the same time the Lord is always different from them.

When advancement of knowledge is applied in the service of the Lord, the whole process becomes absolute. The Personality of Godhead and His transcendental name, fame, glory, etc., are all nondifferent from Him. Therefore, all the sages and devotees of the Lord have recommended that the subject matter of art, science, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology and all other branches of knowledge should be wholly and solely applied in the service of the Lord. Art, literature, poetry, painting, etc., may be used in glorifying the Lord. The fiction writers, poets and celebrated litterateurs are generally engaged in writing of sensuous subjects, but if they turn towards the service of the Lord they can describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. Valmiki was a great poet, and similarly Vyasadeva is a great writer, and both of them have absolutely engaged themselves in delineating the transcendental activities of the Lord and by doing so have become immortal. Similarly, science and philosophy also should be applied in the service of the Lord. There is no use presenting dry speculative theories for sense gratification. philosophy and science should be engaged to establish the glory of the Lord. Advanced people are eager to understand the Absolute Truth through the medium of science, and therefore a great scientist should endeavor to prove the existence of the Lord on a scientific basis. Similarly, philosophical speculations should be utilized to establish the Supreme Truth as sentient and all-powerful. Similarly, all other branches of knowledge should always be engaged in the service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita also the same is affirmed. All "knowledge" not engaged in the service of the Lord is but nescience. Real utilization of advanced knowledge is to establish the glories of the Lord, and that is the real import. Scientific knowledge engaged in the service of the Lord and all similar activities are all factually hari-kirtana, or glorification of the Lord.

Prabhupada: This is our process of Krsna consciousness, everything engaged in glorifying the Supreme Lord. So you are learned scientists. Our request is that you also, by your scientific research, glorify the Supreme. That is perfection.

Dr. Harrap: It seems to me that as scientists, not only us, but we have made a great deal of contribution to the creature comforts of the people of the world but we don't seem to have got their life qualities, good as it should be. I wondered if you might comment on what sort of things we should do to improve this.

Dr. Muncing: Excuse me, do you mind if I record this?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarupa: They can record it?

Prabhupada: Oh yes, why not?

Dr. Harrap: (aside:) This stand's quite a complicated contraption here. It makes (indistinct).

Prabhupada: You can read this, Second Chapter, "Perceiving the existence of the supreme scientist, Lord Sri Krsna." Read this.

Satsvarupa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness, Chapter 2, pages 11 through 19.)

Prabhupada: So our request is that everyone with his talents should establish the authority of the Supreme. This is our Krsna consciousness movement.

Dr. Harrap: Who was the author of that reading, sir? Who wrote it?

Prabhupada: This book? This is one of my student. He is also scientist. You can read his...

Satsvarupa: (reads from The Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness, p. 57)

Madhudvisa: He is one of our spiritual master's disciples, and he has written this book, this small pamphlet here, from his scientific background.

Guest (1): Is he still working as a scientist?

Madhudvisa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the...

Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and...

Madhudvisa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America.

Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are?

Madhudvisa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers...

Prabhupada: We have got forty centers in America.

Dr. Harrap: Forty.

Prabhupada: Forty, four zero, yes.

Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests.

Prabhupada: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Maharaja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, Srimad-Bhagavatam. This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge.

Dr. Harrap: And you're interpreting this in terms of modern day living to a large extent in some of your writings, and, of course, some of your disciples writings, as in this book.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Could I borrow this for a moment? Thanks.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita, yes.

Guest (2): We were very interested in your comments on the dairy industry in particular. Dr. Harrap is in charge of the dairy research. How do you relate your strong interest in dairy products to modern thinking on cholestrol and similar problems? This doesn't disturb you?

Satsvarupa: There are modern theories that milk is actually harmful.

Dr. Harrap: Well, that butter...

Dr. Muncing: The milkfat and...

Dr. Harrap: Yes, milkfat.

Prabhupada: Milk is harmful? How it is harmful? If it is harmful why you are giving milk to the child?

Dr. Harrap: There is a certain difference here in that milk that we get from cows has a very low proportion of what we call polyunsaturated fatty acids, only about two per cent, whereas in human milk this is about ten or twelve percent. It's a much higher level. So milk from cows, which are ruminants, is quite a lot different from the milk that we get from the non-ruminants, and of course, humans are non-ruminants.

Prabhupada: But I think there is a book, "Miracles of Milk," written by one American gentleman. He has greatly valued the milk and milk products. Similarly, we Indians, we give very, very importance to milk and milk products.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, I think this is so, has always been so here, but in recent years there has been shown to be a relationship between the cholestrol level in the blood and the ratio between the saturated and polyunsaturated fat in the diet. The lower the level of polyunsaturated fat, the higher the level of cholestrol in the blood. And this has been associated with heart disease. So there is quite a move to, among many in the medical profession to prescribe diets which are low in saturated fats.

Prabhupada: (aside:) Have you got our picture, Krsna stealing butter?

Dr. Harrap: And we are doing some quite interesting work at the dairy research laboratory aimed at making ruminants' milk, cow's milk, much more like human milk in this way by a special feeding techniques to the cows.

Prabhupada: Yes, milk means cow's milk. Milk means cow's milk because you find in this book that krsi-go-raksya. Go means cow. Cow protection, cow's milk is important, not other animal's milk.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, what about human milk?

Prabhupada: Human milk is natural.

Dr. Harrap: Yes, but then that's very different to cow's milk.

Guest (2): It's very obvious that His Grace isn't suffering from cholestrol. (laughter) Cholestrol is no problem for you.

Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak... Yes, you know him? One of our staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk.

Prabhupada: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Krsna said that krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Find out that verse. You do not have that Krsna Book?

Caru:

krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
sudrasyapi svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.44]

"Translation: Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others..."

Prabhupada: So Krsna... We are following the leadership of Krsna. Krsna was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture.

Guest (2): Brian, you said it was the proportion between polyunsaturated and...

Dr. Harrap: The ratio between them, largely.

Guest (2): I see, rather than the quantity.

Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.

Prabhupada: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyasadeva. So the... He has written Mahabharata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Srimad-Bhagavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits. Yes.

Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncing has taken the lead in C.S.R.O. in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat.

Dr. Muncing: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past.

Madhudvisa: He wants... He would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world and what Australia can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science as well as general living.

Prabhupada: Yes. So far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries... The population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the over-populated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad-gita we have the statement-find out, annad bhavanti bhutani. Find out this verse. Annad bhavanti bhutani.

Caru:

annad bhavanti bhutani
parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;
yajñad bhavati parjanyo
yajñaḥ; karma-samudbhavaḥ;
[Bg. 3.14]

"Translation: All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of yajña, sacrifice, and yajña is born of prescribed duties."

Prabhupada: This is the cycle, that we should produce immense food grain both for the animals and for men. And there should be cooperation. Just like the cow and bull. The bull helps plowing. That is the original system. Now they have invented tractors, what is called? Tractor?

Madhudvisa: Cultivators.

Prabhupada: And the bulls are being killed. Why they should be killed? Engage them in tilling the field. They will have occupation. And the man also will have occupation. There is immense land. So there will be no question of unemployment. And the machine, it works hundreds of men's labor and hundreds of men become unemployed. So unemployed means devil's workshop.

Dr. Muncing: I think that the situation which would apply to the Asian area, whilst I don't know it in complete detail, it's my impression that we have used very nearly all of the Australian area that is suitable for tilling the soil and growing food grains. There are vast areas of Australia that have very little rain, or if they have rain it comes intermittently. And it's my impression that the Australian area... The area that's used for growing grains in Australia couldn't be vastly increased. It couldn't be doubled, for instance. On the other hand I accept that it might well be possible to double the amount that comes off the present area. And of course, that's something that C.S.R.O. is working towards.

Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain because the terrain is just not suited to the grain growing.

Prabhupada: The land is not suitable?

Madhudvisa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts and semi-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural, the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... There's people that don't have the essentials and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. [break]

Prabhupada: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?

Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.

Prabhupada: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our, this Svarupa Damodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.

Dr. Muncing: I think I disagree with that.

Dr. Harrap: I'm a little uncertain from reading some of your comments about the primary aim that you would set for science. I would place a great deal of emphasis on the contribution that science can make to the community.

Prabhupada: That I admit. That I admit. Yes.

Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?

Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?

Guests: Yes, yes, I know.

Prabhupada: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.

Dr. Muncing: I agree.

Prabhupada: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition?

Dr. Muncing: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency...

Prabhupada: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?

Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the...

Prabhupada: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.

Dr. Muncing: If we weren't being recorded I would make a comment but we are, so I won't. (laughter) Sir, could we move from the metaphysical to the material for a brief moment? We were not certain from reading your book whether it would be acceptable, but Dr. Harrap has a special sample of cheese which we wondered if we might present.

Dr. Harrap: This is cheese that has been made in the C.S.R.O. from cow's milk, and I hope that perhaps you might enjoy it.

Prabhupada: Oh, thank you very much. So you can give some cheese preparation to all these respectable scientists. You have got that sweet, sweet ball?

Satsvarupa: Where are they? I could not find them just now.

Prabhupada: You go and find out.

Dr. Harrap: This is a variety of cheese that, what we call a gouda cheese which comes originally from Holland. But it is very much liked in Asian countries and Australia has quite a large export market to many of the Asian countries, and more particularly to Japan. It seems to appeal very much to the taste of cheese-loving people in these countries, and this is a product which is becoming more and more popular in these countries.

Prabhupada: From milk you can prepare hundreds and thousands of preparations.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Yes. Even in cheeses there are probably hundreds of varieties.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. We make. We actually make. At least ten, twenty kinds of sweet preparation we make from the cheese. Therefore our, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Krsi-go-raksya. People... A class of men should be trained up for agriculture, producing food grain, and cow protection. Cow protection means you get the milk, sufficient quantity, and from milk you get so many nutritious, full of vitamin food.

Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-raksya. It does not say, Krsna, "elephant-raksya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-raksya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: adau mata, real mother. Adau mata, guru patni, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Adau mata, guru patni, brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. Brahmana means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brahmana, that is also mentioned there in the sastra. So his wife. Adau mata, guru patni... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Panḍita. Matrvat para-daresu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-daresu. Para-dara means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanya-daya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married. Your government has approved our society that we can...

Madhudvisa: The Australian government in the latest Gazette has recognized the Hare Krsna movement as a bona fide religion eligible to perform legal marriages.

Prabhupada: And the other day Reverend Powell came. He also has given his announcement in the paper. What is that?

Satsvarupa: "Don't be alarmed at the Hare Krsnas." (laughter) Reverend Gordon Powell...

Guest (2): Yes, if we were alarmed we wouldn't be here.

Prabhupada: No, actually we are pledged to give something substantial to the human society. This is our mission. We are not that group, that showing some magic and take some fees and... It is not our business. We have got so many literatures full of treasurehouse of knowledge. We have to distribute that. Not bluffing, showing magic or this or that, miracles. No. We are not this. It is an institution for giving knowledge to the human society. The first beginning of knowledge is that at the present moment, people, although very much proud of their advancement of knowledge, he does not know what is the active principle of life.

Guest (2): Could we cover one more subject, sir, before we close, or do you have some...

Guest (1): I would like to ask about the writings and where they came from and so on, but you go first.

Guest (2): You should read the book. I have a very good friend, a brahmana friend in the Indian Atomic Energy Commission. How do you view the development of the potential for nuclear explosions in India?

Prabhupada: Yes, from the revealed scripture we can understand from... You have got the first part of Bhagavatam?

Caru: Yes, right here.

Prabhupada: The Asvatthama released the brahmastra?

Satsvarupa: That's in three I think.

Prabhupada: Similar nuclear weapon was there. It was called brahmastra. So when this brahmastra was released by one Asvatthama, the same symptom of nuclear weapon... Krsna krsna maha baho. That is...

Satsvarupa: We don't have that volume.

Prabhupada: Why you are lacking? You have got enough books. I inquired from you in the morning. You said, "Yes, we have got enough stock."

Madhudvisa: We have them but we do not have them here.

Prabhupada: No, that is not... Here are people coming, gentlemen coming.

Madhudvisa: The question was, Srila Prabhupada, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's...

Prabhupada: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudha eva kuṭumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this," no. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Panḍitaḥ; sama darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18]. Find out this verse.

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 5.18]

Caru:

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 5.18]

"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."

Prabhupada: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18], means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakrteḥ; kriyamanani gunaiḥ; karmani sarvasaḥ; [Bg. 3.27].

Caru: Ahankara vimuḍha.

Prabhupada: Karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. Find out this verse.

Caru:

prakrteḥ; kriyamanani
gunaiḥ; karmani sarvasaḥ;
ahankara vimuḍhatma
kartaham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupada: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tatha dehantara prapti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact.

Guest (2): Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?

Madhudvisa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk.

Prabhupada: Let him take. Yes.

Guest (2): Oh, thank you.

Madhudvisa: Give a napkin. It's a sweet preparation called gulab jamin. It is all prepared just from milk which has been made into curd, and then the curd has been fried in ghee, cooking ghee, and then after it has been fried, it has been soaked in sweet water and it is very palatable. It's called a gulab jamin. It is a very famous delicacy of Indian cooking. It requires great skill and art to prepare these. And as our spiritual master said, there is actually hundreds and hundreds of food which can be prepared from this, like the cheese you have there. Even cooking cheese and spicing it with asafoetida and ginger, meat taste can be simulated very, very nicely.

Prabhupada: This cheese as it is you take, it is as beneficial as meat.

Madhudvisa: Protein.

Guest (2): Yes, yes. Similar protein.

Prabhupada: So why the animal should be killed? Take milk.

Guest (2): What is sweet water? You mean just sugar...

Madhudvisa: Syrup.

Guest (2): Now is this made here or in India?

Madhudvisa: Yes, we make it ourselves. Our spiritual master taught us how to make it. (laughter) An ancient science.

Prabhupada: No, no, I am teaching them, "Eat nicely, live nicely, and be prepared for your next life, for going back to home, back to Godhead." You can take it. It is very nice.

Guest (2): You mean to eat it now?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): I would sooner take it home and eat it with my wife.

Prabhupada: No, no, you take, you take it. You just...

Madhudvisa: I can give you another.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you like we shall give you more.

Satsvarupa: It's very sweet. Watch it, it's very drippy though.

Guest (2): Yes, it looks like it.

Prabhupada: And if you send us cheese like this we can send you many things. (laughter)

Dr. Muncing: It's very nice, but I must save some for my family.

Dr. Harrap: I'd probably be irreligious if I said that it was soaked in rum, but... (laughter)

Dr. Muncing: It's very good.

Prabhupada: Shall I give you more?

Dr. Harrap: No, that's very nice, thank you. It'll ruin my dinner. Can I take the rest home?

Madhudvisa: Oh yes.

Dr. Muncing: Well, this has been most interesting.

Dr. Harrap: Oh, yes. Public relations for dairy research.

Madhudvisa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.

Prabhupada: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajña. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.

Guest (2): Well, thank you...

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (end)