(With M. Douant the president of the Protestant Center of Geneva, Mlle. Peritier a member of the Protestant Center of Geneva, M. Morrel the Dean of the Faculty of Theology of the University of Geneva, M. Roche-dieu former honorary professor of history of religion of the University of Geneva, and a theology student.)

Yogesvara: Mademoiselle Peritier who is a member of the Protestant Center in Geneva.

Prabhupada: One gentleman came the other day, Protestant Center?

Yogesvara: Yes. Pastor Babel. Yes. They are familiar with him. Monsieur Douant.

Swiss Man (1): The President.

Prabhupada: Why don't you give him a chair.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: Little rheumatism.

Prabhupada: Give him chair.

Yogesvara: Yes, he's... Satsvarupa Maharaja. Monsieur Douant is the president of the Protestant Center of Geneva. Monsieur Roche-dieu who is the...

M. Roche-dieu: Former, former Honorary Professor of History of Religions on the faculty of theology, Protestant theology.

Yogesvara: Mr. Roche-dieu is a specialist in Hindu religion.

Prabhupada: Ah. (French)

Yogesvara: Mr. Morrel, who is the Dean of the Theology University in Geneva and who directs all of the religious activities for the university.

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: Theology student. Our spiritual master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So you have shown our books?

Yogesvara: (French)

Prabhupada: Sixty volumes of these books.

Yogesvara: (French-Yogesvara showing books)

Prabhupada: And Caitanya-caritamrta.

M. Roche-dieu: Whose are those pictures?

Yogesvara: Our students. We have our painting workshop in New York City. All of these books have color illustrations.

M. Roche-dieu: Indian students?

Yogesvara: No. He asks if our students are Indian. He likes the paintings. He was wondering whether they were done by Indian students.

Prabhupada: No. American students under my direction.

Yogesvara: (French)

Prabhupada: You can inform about our reception in the higher circles. Professors, they have ordered all the sixty volumes of...

Satsvarupa: The letter, in English.

Yogesvara: (French)

M. Roche-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliade who is in Chicago, department, religious department?

Yogesvara: What is his name?

M. Roche-dieu: Mssr. Eliade, Eliade.

Yogesvara: Professor Eliage?

M. Roche-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman.

Yogesvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage...

M. Roche-dieu: Eliade. Eliade.

Yogesvara: Eliade. Chicago University?

Prabhupada: No, I have never gone to Chicago.

Yogesvara: Is not Professor Dimmock from Chicago?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: Professor Dimmock, perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimmock. He's head of which department?

Satsvarupa: East Asian.

Yogesvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad-gita.

M. Roche-dieu: I have seen it, yes. Chicago University Department

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka. What is the symbolism, significance?

Prabhupada: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Visnu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Visnu from all sides.

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: The shaved head, he's asking.

Prabhupada: This is cleanliness. Instead of keeping unnecessary hair, we keep very clean.

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: These traditions have existed for a long time, he's asking.

Prabhupada: Yes. Especially the brahmanas, they keep the shaven head. Brahmanas are the topmost class. What is the symptoms of brahmana, find out.

Yogesvara: (French)

Nitai:

samo damas tapaḥ; saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jñanam vijñanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."

Prabhupada: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. Find out this verse.

Yogesvara: (French)

Prabhupada: Page?

Nitai: 235.

Yogesvara: You have it?

Nitai: You want to read it?

Yogesvara:

catur-varnyam maya srsṭam
guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ;
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam
[Bg. 4.13]

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates)

Prabhupada: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brahmanas are stated. Samo damas titiksa? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titiksa.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: So their qualification, brahmana qualification, find out. Page?

Nitai: It's eight twelve.

Yogesvara: Eight twelve?

Prabhupada: 812.

Yogesvara: (reads verse 18.42 in French)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: He says, "Does this Krsna consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?"

Prabhupada: Outcaste? There are four castes only.

Swiss Man (1): But there are the outcastes...

Yogesvara: Do you mean the untouchables?

Prabhupada: Outcaste means those who are less than the sudras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Sudra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as canḍalas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Krsna consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Krsna conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called canḍalas. Canḍala means untouchable. So they are also many: kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanaḥ; khasadayaḥ; [SB 2.4.18]. So Krsna says, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ; papa-yonayaḥ; [Bg. 9.32]. There is... Mam hi partha vyapasritya.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: Read it.

Nitai:

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuḥ; papa-yonayaḥ;
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]

"O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupada: So in Krsna consciousness movement there is no such distinction because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere and these designations are different. So Krsna consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Krsna consciousness movement, anyone who is in Krsna consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa gunan samatitya. Find out. Mam ca avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena yaḥ; sevate, sa gunan...

Yogesvara: (translates)

Nitai:

mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

"One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."

Prabhupada: The designations are on the material platform according to the quality. But in the spiritual platform it is transcendental to material qualities. So when one becomes Krsna conscious there is no more distinction.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu-samhita, for example, sudras are not to be instructed.

Prabhupada: Yes, but we do not keep him sudra. A devotee is no longer sudra. We are creating brahmanas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu-samhita, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more sudras or canḍalas. They are brahmanas.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: So it is said, guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13], according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brahmana, Vaisnava, and he works like a brahmana, he is no longer sudra or canḍala or yavana. He is brahmana or Vaisnava.

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: He says, in a sense we're something like the Buddhists because the Buddhists also don't take account of this, of the caste system.

Prabhupada: No, no. Buddhist or anyone. Just like a person, when he is not educated in medical science he is not a medical man, but when he is properly educated in the medical science and he practices as a medical man, then he is a medical man. So you take it from Buddhism, or Hinduism; it doesn't matter. The thing is, consideration is, guna-karma. One must be qualified and he must work. Then he is elevated.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: In other words, he's saying, what we're saying is that spiritually, everyone is equal, which is actually the same as the Christian idea.

Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritually, not materially. Materially there must be distinction. Materially there must be distinction. But spiritually there is no distinction.

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogesvara: What was his first point?

Guru-gauranga: The point was that in Christianity everyone can become Christian whereas it seems in this only some can become brahmana. So he is interested what is the path to becoming brahmana. How does one become brahmana?

Prabhupada: Brahmana means purified. Just like in Christianity also there are ten commandments. If you do not obey the ten commandments, how you can become Christian?

Yogesvara: (French)

Prabhupada: First of all, the quality. The quality of Christian is that he must obey the ten commandments. If he does not obey, then where is his Christianity? That is stated, guna-karma: by quality and work one becomes Christian or Hindu or Muslim. There must be the quality. But when the spirituality develops either from Christianity or Hindu or Muslim—it doesn't matter—then there is. Find out that verse, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Read it. This is the ideal of equality. Find out.

Pusṭa-krsna:

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yayatma suprasidati
[SB 1.2.6]

"The supreme occupation, dharma, for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted in order to completely satisfy the self."

Prabhupada: So our, this movement is to create lover of God. It does not matter whether he follows Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism or this ism or that ism. One must be lover of God, and that is stated in the Bhagavata. That is first-class religion which turns the followers to become lover of God, that's all.

M. Roche-dieu: In Christianity, mystics would emphasize the same thing.

Prabhupada: That is the essence of religion, to know God and to love Him. That's all.

M. Roche-dieu: Yes. Love God and love the man too.

Prabhupada: Why man? Simply love God; then you will love everyone. Because God is the center, God is the father of everyone, so if you love the father, automatically you love the sons. It is not required that you simply love this son and not that son. That is not love of Godhead. "I love human being but I do not love the poor animals. Send them to the slaughterhouse." This is not love of God. So in the Bhagavad-gita, you will find, God says,

sarva-yonisu kaunteya
murtayaḥ; sambhavanti yaḥ;
tasam brahma mahad yonir
aham bija-pradaḥ; pita
[Bg. 14.4]

So God is the Supreme Father. It is not that He is father of the human being. He is father of the animals, He is father of the trees, He is father of the animals...

M. Roche-dieu: Living being.

Prabhupada: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian; I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being; I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God.

M. Roche-dieu: (French) Life is a whole view, and there is no division between animals and man.

Prabhupada: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics, the same spirit soul. Read that.

Nitai:

sarva-yonisu kaunteya
murtayaḥ; sambhavanti yaḥ;
tasam brahma mahad yonir
aham bija-pradaḥ; pita
[Bg. 14.4]

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupada: Yes. The father is God, and they are all sons. But they have, they have been given different types of dress according to karma. So when actually one loves God, he loves all of them as brothers, not that only human being. That is not love of God. Then he does not know what is God. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll not find a single sentence where it is recommended that "Only love the human being." There is no such thing.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Frenchman: (French)

Yogesvara: He's asking, "Well, that's all right. But this love that we have for God, only man can give it. An animal can't love God. A tree can't love God."

Prabhupada: But you can love animal. You are not animal. Animal... Just like we are discussing about theosophy because we are grown up, and the child, he cannot understand. That does not mean we shall be unkind to the children. He may be ignorant, the animal may be ignorant, but I am not ignorant. How can I kill the animal?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He's asking, "How do we see ourselves and how is it that we intentionally distinguish ourselves by dressing differently, by having a different presentation than the rest of society."

Guru-gauranga: Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity...

Prabhupada: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that "These are human beings. They should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa elephants. They are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hole of your room there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: (translates) He says, "Yes, but we see that among the animals there are certain, many species that do eat meat."

Prabhupada: Among the animals. But you are not animal.

M. Roche-dieu: They do not eat anything else.

Prabhupada: But you are not animal. Animals among... The tiger, he is destined to eat meat. But you are not animal. You are human being. Why should you eat? Why you should imitate an animal? Then why there is religion?

Frenchman: (French)

Yogesvara: (translates) There's a story. Someone asked Lord Jesus to describe how we should love all people. Describe... Just like a man who has one hundred sheep and there is one of them who has gone astray, he is lost, so the man leaves aside all of his other hundred sheep to go looking for that one sheep. So in the same way, he says, we must take care of the people who are suffering. The minority, those who are suffering, they must receive food, they must be given help and fed.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But why you should kill animal?

Young Swiss Man (3): At the beginning of Bhagavad-gita...

Prabhupada: And Christ says, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are killing? From the very beginning disobedience. How you can become Christian?

Young Swiss Man (3): Isn't it at the beginning Arjuna hesitates to kill his family and doesn't want to go to fight, and what he is taught, through Bhagavad-gita in some way is that he should not restrain and that...

Prabhupada: But first of all you take your Bible. You are ordered not to kill. Why you are killing? Then go to Bhagavad-gita. When there is aggression you have the right to kill but not unnecessarily you can kill. Suppose a tiger attacks you; you can kill. But you cannot go in the forest and kill the tiger. That is sinful.

Young Swiss Man (3): Why does the distinction stop with animals and not with plants?

Yogesvara: Why do we make the distinction between not killing animals and plants? Why do we kill plants?

Prabhupada: We do not kill plants also. We take... Of course, by nature's way some living entity is the food for another living entity. Jivo jivasya jivanam. That is the nature's way. But if you give that argument, then I can say, "Why you are killing cows? Why don't you kill your own children?" If that is the way, that "Because I have to eat some animal," so why go outside? Just inside the family there are so many animals. You can kill them and eat. there must be discretion. Apart from this point of view, we Krsna conscious people, we do not kill even a plant because, Krsna says-find out this-patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26].

Yogesvara: (translating) ...jivo jivasya jivanam (French)...

Prabhupada: There is no jivo jivasya jivanam. Here Krsna says, "Give Me these things, patram puspam phalam toyam." There is no question of jivasya jivanam.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: Just hear. Krsna is ordering, "Give Me this food."

Yogesvara: (translates) Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati. (translates)

Prabhupada: So we take Krsna prasadam. We don't directly do anything. Krsna says, "Give Me this foodstuff containing of vegetables, fruits, flowers, grains." So we offer them and then you take. If there is any sinful activity there, it is Krsna's, not mine.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Frenchman: (French)

Prabhupada: (aside) Why don't you open this?

Yogesvara: He says, "That may be so, but in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna orders Arjuna that 'You must kill.' "

Prabhupada: You must kill always. Where is that...? Where is that quotation?

Yogesvara: (French)

Prabhupada: Are... You know... Where is the quotation in the Bhagavad-gita?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says in the beginning of the Gita, Krsna tells Arjuna to fight.

Prabhupada: Why? "Because you are ksatriya. There is fight, war, you must fight. You are meant for..." Just like my hands, ksatriya. If there is attack it is hand's duty to protect me. The hand is being asked to give protection. That is natural. If I go to attack you, immediately you spread your hand. This is the duty of the hand. So when there is attack, the other's party, they have come to fight. You must fight because you are hand.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says, "But then Krsna says, 'Why are you afraid to fight? After all, the soul is eternal, but the body is only temporary.' So isn't that a justification..."

Prabhupada: But Krsna does not say, "Therefore you open slaughterhouse and go on killing animals."

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Prabhupada: Well, if you have killed some man and you go to the court and if you say that "He is not killed," will you be saved?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says, "How is this, that the only thing we've talked about since we've gotten here has been eating of meat? Is that the only...?"

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: He says, "How is that that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad-gita teaches?"

Prabhupada: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become... Find out that verse, yesam anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktaḥ;. This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. [break]

Yogesvara: Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate...

Prabhupada: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic, pillars of sinful activities... Just like four pillars. One is this meat-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling, and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says there are other sinful activities as well. For example, egoism and jealously.

Prabhupada: But first of all begin these primary principles, and then others will be automatically stopped.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He does not think that they will follow naturally just by stopping these four things.

Prabhupada: Naturally it follows, but if somebody wants to cheat, that is another thing. Naturally it follows.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: This gentleman suggests that he prefers someone who may be committing all four of these sinful activities but who helps his fellow man.

Prabhupada: The fellow man helping, what does he gain?

Yogesvara: (translates) He says, "Even if someone is committing all kinds of sinful activities..."

Prabhupada: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question.

Yogesvara: He says, "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself."

Prabhupada: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him?

Swiss Man (1): Certain circumstances.

Yogesvara: He says, "In certain circumstances."

Prabhupada: In certain circumstances, but if you do not know how to... Suppose a man is diseased and you think... The doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping. That is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not... Helping means, real helping is, that a man or anyone... Everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger, there's a danger in what he calls "spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually...

Prabhupada: But that pride is there. That gentleman is proud that he's helping someone. That prideness is there. But out of these two kinds of prideness, one prideness which is real, that is welcome. If one is falsely proud, that is useless. But if one is actually proud of doing something, then he... That is good. Just like in the Vedic literature it is recommended that you should feel aham brahmasmi: "I am Brahman." This is also ego. This is real ego, that "I am spirit soul." This is not bad. But when one thinks, "I am this body," he's a rascal. If one thinks that "I am servant of God," that is real ego. And if one thinks, "I am servant of Satan," that is not very good.

Yogesvara: I think this gentleman still isn't feeling satisfied about his question.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Yogesvara: That how can we say that to give people..., that the only real problem is to give knowledge. There are people who are starving; there are people who are sick; there are people who are in so much distress.

Prabhupada: But you cannot do. You cannot do. There are so many people starving in the hospital. What can you do?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says, "Probably not very much." He said, "But maybe we can do something."

Prabhupada: Then this is simply a false pride, that "I can do something." You cannot do anything. Rather, you can do this service, that "There is God. You are servant of God. Please become servant of God." And if you make this program, "I can give food to so many," what you can do? There are millions and millions. People are starving all over the world. What can you do? It is simply false pride. You cannot do anything. Now, just like I have heard that in your country, because they have got excess milk supply there was recommendation to kill twenty thousand cows. Is it a fact?

Guru-gauranga: Yes.

Prabhupada: So is it very good intelligence? Because there is excess of milk supply, why not supply it to others who are starving for milk?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: You want to translate that?

Guru-gauranga: "But when we go to India, on the other hand, you may see cows dying of hunger, just bare skeletons."

Prabhupada: But there are so many human beings also dying out of hunger. Is it to be recommended that they should be killed? There are many human being also; they are also skeletons. They have no sufficient food. So if you think that the cows are skeletons for want of food, you supply them food. Why you are restricting? If... The Americans, they are throwing tons of food in the water. Why they do not send to India for feeding the skeleton cows? What the cows have done? They are also living entity. Why you are thinking of human beings, not of the cows?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says for Protestants especially, there is a feeling that to think that we can become purified of our sins by following some formulary, that is a kind of false pride, that actually to become free...

Prabhupada: Then why Christ recommend, "Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not covet. Thou shall not do this. Thou shall not..."? They are all false thing? Now let us talk of knowledge. We have talked so many outside knowledge. What is the real knowledge? The real knowledge is that everything is the property of God. Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. No land belongs either to the Americans or to the Swiss people or to the Indian people or to German people. No. Everything belongs to God. And all living entities are the sons of God. So everything produced out of God's land, either on the land or in the sky or anywhere, it is God's property, and all the sons, they have the right to share. So there is no scarcity in the God's kingdom. Simply due to our mismanagement we have created so much trouble. If we accept God as the center and all living entities sons of God, then we can actually live very peacefully in God consciousness. Therefore this is the recommendation, how we can live very peacefully, all of us, both men and animal and everyone. That is said here. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Read it.

Yogesvara:

annad bhavanti bhutani
parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;
yajñad bhavati parjanyo
yajñaḥ; karma-samudbhavaḥ;
[Bg. 3.14]

(translates)

Prabhupada: Sacrifice means to satisfy God. So you satisfy God. By God's mercy there will be sufficient rain. And when there is sufficient rain you produce sufficient food, food grains, and both the animals and men eat and live in God consciousness. Read the purport.

Yogesvara: (reads purport in French)

Prabhupada: So far I have studied... I am traveling all over the world. It is my calculation that we can produce food to give food ten times of the population if we properly utilize the whole planet according to this-produce food. Why because the milk is produced more, the cows should be slaughtered when there is a need of milk? It is so nice foodstuff. So on account of this false nationalism, "This is my land, this is my land, this is my land..." And why not take it as God's land and produce enough foodstuff. There will be no scarcity. There will be no skeleton. And distribute it. Where is that consciousness? There is so much land uncultivated all over the world, especially in America, in Australia, and in Africa, so much, huge land, no cultivation. They are keeping some cows and slaughtering them and exporting. What is this? Why don't you produce food?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says all of these things, they are known. They know there's enough land and all these nonsense things are happening. He says simply to give this...

Prabhupada: And therefore knowledge is required.

Yogesvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice.

Prabhupada: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. That is not love. I love you and kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means... You see the description of love is there, panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;.

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 5.18]

That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all.

M. Roche-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, we think, love.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others.

M. Roche-dieu: No, no.

Prabhupada: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons.

Yogesvara: Here's that verse.

Prabhupada: Here is the verse.

Yogesvara:

vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 5.18]

(reads French translation)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that.

Prabhupada: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego, and this pride. What is that knowledge?

Prabhupada: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me, and in him? What do you think?

Yogesvara: (translates) Is that right? Did I translate?

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says that... First of all he is very grateful that we are now approaching these higher spiritual questions. He says his understanding is that this living force inside all of us is the spirit of God that is in every one of us.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: But he says now... But there must be something more than just these words. There must be some way of experiencing that, of realizing that.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is experiencing, that because the spirit soul is there in you, in me, or anywhere, therefore the body is moving. Just try to understand. And as soon as the spirit soul is out of this body, then it is useless, a lump of matter. Therefore the living force, or the spirit soul, is important. That you have to accept.

Yogesvara: (translates) Was there something else that I missed?

Guru-gauranga: (French)

Yogesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is admitted? Anything, anything. Just like the big 747 plane is flying but the important thing is there, the pilot. So the motor car, big motor car, big machine, is moving but the important thing is the operator. So if you study that the matter is simply an agency of movement... Real mover is the spirit. You have to admit.

Yogesvara: Yes, they are willing to.

Prabhupada: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately... So I am also isvara, means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called paramesvara, "the supreme controller." That is God.

Yogesvara: You can translate that?

Guru-gauranga: (translates)

Prabhupada: So there are two isvaras. I am also isvara. So far my, this body is concerned or my family is concerned, I am controlling. But the supreme controller, He is controlling everything. That is God. So those who are atheists, they must accept that there is the supreme controller, and He is God. So God is controlling everything. There are two things—material and spiritual. We have got experience. Suppose in this city of...

Swiss Man (4): Geneva.

Prabhupada: Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things, animate and inanimate. One section, animate; another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or isvaras. We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. As supreme God, the supreme controller is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit, we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Guru-gauranga: He is very happy with your answer. He says, "I am content."

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: He says that for Christians, this feeling of being with God comes from praying to Lord Jesus Christ. He's asking if Krsna has that same position for us.

Prabhupada: Well, Krsna is God, and Christ is son of God. We don't find any difference between the son and the father.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: Krsna, he thinks, is an avatara of Visnu.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: Krsna, he says, is an avatara of Visnu?

Prabhupada: Well, Visnu or Krsna is the same thing. It is external. Krsna... Somebody says Krsna is avatara of Visnu, and we say that Visnu is expansion of Krsna. Now, this example I have already given. Just like one candle. The another, ignite another candle, ignite another candle... Now, all these candles, so far light-giving power the same. But you can call, "This is first candle. This is second candle." And if you say the second candle is first candle, so there is no trouble because the candle power is the same.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Frenchman: (French)

Yogesvara: He says, do we see Krsna as being a savior in the way that Christians see Christ as being the savior?

Prabhupada: What do you mean by "savior"?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Frenchman: (French)

Yogesvara: He say the savior is one who rekindles the spiritual spark that reunites the living being with God. So the savior is in between God and the living being.

Prabhupada: Savior means who saves you from this material existence. He is called savior. Because the living entity, being entangled in this material existence, he is suffering, so savior means one who saves from this material entanglement and gets him back to God, back to Godhead.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: When they think of the savior, they're talking about the guru, the spiritual master. He's asking, is Krsna our guru? Krsna, we consider Krsna...

Prabhupada: Guru means the representative of God. Just like Christ is son of God, guru is also son of God. So there is no much difference because they will say the same thing, that "You are suffering in this material world on account of material entanglement. So you give up this business. Come back to home, back to Godhead." So this is the real message. This message is given by God, by His son, by His servant. The message is the same. If one does not give this message he is neither guru, nor son, nothing of the sort.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: What interests them is the underlying nature of our spiritual practice as opposed to theirs. For example, for them spiritual life is the prayer, salvation in Lord Jesus Christ. And they're not quite sure... They're interested in knowing what is our relationship with Krsna. Is it the same or...

Prabhupada: We are also thinking of Krsna always. Eh? Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drḍha-vrataḥ; [Bg. 9.14]. We are chanting, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna..." We are always remembering Krsna. So the real process is... Either you think of Krsna or son of Krsna, it doesn't matter, but you should always think of Him. That is the requisition. That is recommended. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, Ninth Chapter.

Pusṭa-krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Mam evaisyasi asamsayaḥ; [Bg. 18.65].

Nitai: [Bg. 9.34]:

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam
atmanam mat-parayanaḥ;

Prabhupada: Translation.

Nitai: "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

Prabhupada: That's all. Now either you engage your mind in Krsna or Jesus does not matter. It is same thing. But this is the process. "Engage your mind in Me." Then?

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: So we are teaching this, that engage your mind to God or the son of god; it doesn't matter. But your mind should be godly engaged. That's all. That is meditation. That is real meditation: "Always think of Me." And in another place, in Sixth Chapter, you see,

yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ;
[Bg. 6.47]

"The first-class yogi is he who is always thinking of Me." So it doesn't matter you are Christian, I am Hindu. The real point is that think of God or God's representative always. That is the point.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Yogesvara: (translates) And in that situation, always thinking of God like that, our philosophy is that naturally these others things, charity, humanitarian works, they will all come naturally?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair gunais tatra samasate suraḥ; [SB 5.18.12]. As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given... [break] ...one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the U.S.A also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Guru-gauranga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guru-gauranga: "And you said them."

M. Roche-dieu: I am very glad to have, to heard you saying these.

Prabhupada: Thank you. Bring prasada.

Yogesvara: (French conversation)

Prabhupada: Show him the pictures.

Yogesvara: (French conversation)

Prabhupada: We have got 102 centers, and each center you'll find hundred, two hundred, 250 devotees like that. You see the picture. No, no. First picture. All these young boys and girls, how they are happy, you can see from the picture. They have got husband, they have got wife, they have got children.

Young man: Are you from Los Angeles?

Yogesvara: No, I'm from New York.

Prabhupada: This picture is of Los Angeles, our Los Angeles temple. That is Los Angeles Deity, and this is Paris Deity here.

Swiss Man (1): (French conversation, prasadam is served)

Yogesvara: Right there. The young man behind you. (French)

Young man: How well the devotees know the scriptures, in fact, because when you go to...

Yogesvara: He says one thing, one thing is very impressive, to see how well your disciples know the scriptures.

Prabhupada: Yes, they have been educated in that way. For education we have so many books. If from child up to the age of eighty years, if one is educated, we have got sufficient stock to give him education.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: We have got our educational institution in Dallas, Gurukula. From small children we are educating to become highest devotee.

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Guru-gauranga: (French) This gentleman says we had difficulties with the police in the beginning. And I said, "Yes, but then I went, and I gave him all your books, and he read them, and then there were no more difficulties."

Prabhupada: Yes, on account of our books we are being appreciated everywhere. In the beginning they might have thought that "Some of the hippies," like that.

Swiss Man (1): Have you been in connection with Aurobindo?

Yogesvara: Have we been in contact with Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo?

Prabhupada: Why? Why I shall be in contact, Aurobindo?

Swiss Man (1): Because he's... We know in (indistinct).

Prabhupada: He does not know better than Krsna. So one association is sufficient. There is no need of going this Aurobindo, Saurobindo. We never... Why should we waste our time? We have got sufficient education in Krsna consciousness. First of all let us finish these hundred books of four hundred pages. Then we shall see what Aurobindo writes. We don't think anyone can speak better than Krsna. That is admitted.

Yogesvara: (translates)

Prabhupada: Aurobindo was... Aurobindo, Vivekananda, they started talking something in the Western world hundred years ago. But not a single man became Krsna devotee.

Yogesvara: (French conversation) They wish to thank you very, very much for your kindness in receiving them.

Prabhupada: And I thank you for your coming. (chuckles)

Yogesvara: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. Give this flower. Thank you.

Swiss Man (1): And God bless you.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (guests leave) These Aurobindos or Vivekanandas and Gandhis, they have spoiled Hindu culture. Vedic culture they have spoiled. Hodgepodge writing, hodgepodge speaking, dry speaking, speculation-choked up the progress of Vedic civilization. Now here is some hope. People are now taking it. Now, did I say wrong, that "Why shall I go to Aurobindo?"

Nitai: You never say wrong. (laughs) All of your answers were right, great.

Prabhupada: I have got better instruction than Aurobindo. Why shall I go to Aurobindo, waste my time? People don't know anything. Nobody has become a devotee of Krsna in reading Aurobindo's literature. And here, as soon as they saw our literature, immediately police officer said, "Oh, you are so high." Immediately. Where is the record, the professors and universities eager to purchase Aurobindo's book and Vivekananda's books? There is no record. But here they are eager "All sixty books, please, sir." "All twelve books, please, sir."

Pusṭa-krsna: Why are they so attracted to humanitarianism?

Prabhupada: That is false pride. This has been taught. In the Christianity they have taught like that, giving medicine, open hospital. That is Christianity.

Yogesvara: He admitted it himself. He said himself, "It's a false pride to think..."

Prabhupada: That's all.

Yogesvara: "...think we can do something."

Prabhupada: You cannot do anything. But they show. They make a collection, that "We are doing such nice work." The Vivekananda also imitated like that and could not do anything. It is not possible. Swami Nikhilananda said... He belongs to the Vivekananda group. Because they raise funds from America, huge funds, that "We shall feeding the poor in India." And they eat meat and big, big become fat, these rascals. So the Americans asked them that "You are taking away our money somewhere to feed the poor. But when we go to India, two sides we see all poor men are lying on the street. What you have done?" So this is a slogan. They cannot do anything. Thinking of poor... Now, those who have accepted voluntarily povertyism, the hippies, what you are doing for them? Why don't you make arrangement for their gentlemanly living? They are not poverty-stricken. Why they are living like wretches, lying on the street, no program for eating, no for sleeping, no for bodily comfort, just like animals? What you have done for them?

Yogesvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood.

Prabhupada: This is karma. If you have bad karma, then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son.

Pusṭa-krsna: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said, "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand.

Prabhupada: Very good idea. Therefore I said Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Krsna says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone—panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18]. Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national?

Pusṭa-krsna: You used a very nice example, that the children, they are ignorant but that does not mean you kill them.

Prabhupada: Yes. Is there any meaning, "Oh, these are foolish children creating trouble, so I will kill them"? What is this?

Yogesvara: There was a story in Time magazine last week. Everyone was in a big flurry about it. An airplane crashed in the Andes mountains, and they were stranded way up in the mountains for eighteen days without any food. So there were maybe fifty people on the plane and only eighteen survivors. So because there was no food they ate the bodies. They ate the dead bodies to survive. Then, eighteen days later they were saved. A plane came and picked them up and brought them back. So people are very, very much excited, "Oh, what is this amazing occurrence, that they ate human flesh?" But every day they are eating...

Prabhupada: Cow's flesh. When it was?

Yogesvara: This was about... Now it is almost a month ago, one month ago.

Prabhupada: Where it was?

Yogesvara: In the Andes mountains?

Pusṭa-krsna: High in the mountains.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: High in the mountains there was a plane that crashed.

Nitai: South America.

Yogesvara: Is it South...

Nitai: Andes, yes.

Yogesvara: I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know for sure. But in the mountains a plane crashed and there were eighteen survivors. And to stay alive they ate the dead bodies of the passengers who died. So there were many articles. "What was it like?" Everyone wants to know, "What was it like to eat human flesh? Do you feel bad now that you have eaten human flesh?" "No."

Guru-gauranga: Who's left a copy of Bhagavad-gita here?

Pusṭa-krsna: Who's left this copy? That's his, this young boy.

Yogesvara: There have already been books written about it, television reports, radio, everything.

Pusṭa-krsna: One thing on that report. I read that there were certain people...

Prabhupada: There was no vegetable?

Yogesvara: No, it was way up in the mountains.

Pusṭa-krsna: Icy, cold.

Yogesvara: It was very cold. There was no plants, no nothing. They had to stay inside the plane just to stay alive, to stay warm. So they could not go and get food anywhere.

Pusṭa-krsna: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that.

Prabhupada: No, in last war they ate stool also.

Yogesvara: Concentration camps.

Pusṭa-krsna: Really? What is the Vaisnava point of view?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Pusṭa-krsna: Is a Vaisnava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Krsna even if he has to break regulative principles—if it is necessary?

Prabhupada: If it is necessary.

Yogesvara: What's the name of that yogi who meditated for sixty thousand years?

Nitai: Saubhari? Visvamitra.

Prabhupada: Valmiki.

Yogesvara: No.

Nitai: Visvamitra?

Prabhupada: Visvamitra.

Yogesvara: He also had to eat dog, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: There's a story about that.

Prabhupada: Yes, Visvamitra. How they exist in that open, and there was snow. For eating they... Eighteen days?

Yogesvara: The plane crashed. Half the people were killed. So the other people, two of them left to go find help. They went to find out some people they could telephone or something. It took them eighteen days to find a house. So the other people, they all stayed close together inside the airplanes. They put on blankets and their coats. But there was no... They could not go outside. There was no food.

Pusṭa-krsna: They had... At first they had little chocolate and they rationed it out that "You get a little bit of chocolate," and little bit of liquid they had. And so they rationed it out until that was finished. Then they took a vote amongst themselves. "Well, what shall we do? Shall we eat human flesh or shall we simply starve to death?" So they voted amongst themselves that "Yes, we should do this." There were some men, one or two, that would not do it and they died. They refused to do it, and they died. Others, they did.

Yogesvara: They made some... Afterwards they had to... There was some discussion, some philosophy. They were actually discussing. And there was one person there who was explaining to the others that "We must eat this flesh to stay alive but it's not so wrong since the soul has left the body." He said, "The spirit has left these bodies, so you shouldn't consider it to be quite so bad. We're obliged to do this."

Prabhupada: Yes, that is not unreasonable. It was a question of selection. Otherwise, to subsist, to eat the dead bodies, flesh, that is not very abominable. That can be accepted. But it is the selection whether one will eat. That is another thing. Otherwise dead body's flesh is as good as anything else because it is matter.

Yogesvara: So who is coming?

Guru-gauranga: There is one more meeting today.

Prabhupada: Where?

Guru-gauranga: There is the European Center for Nuclear Research.

Prabhupada: What can I do there? (laughter)

Guru-gauranga: This man has worked in India... [break]

Prabhupada: ...for B.A. examination. So the father failed, and the daughter passed. Yes, because the old man cannot take education. In Bhagavata also it is recommended, kaumara acaret prajño dharman bhaga... [SB 7.6.1]. Therefore this Krsna consciousness should be taught from the very beginning of life. The more younger, you capture it. Just like we were educated from the very birth by our father. The same thing, what I am doing now in larger scale, I did in my childhood, Radha-Krsna worship and Ratha-yatra, the same thing.

Nitai: Would you like some refreshment, something to drink or eat?

Prabhupada: Little fruit and a little this. (end)