Prabhupada: ...but in different ways. Mama vartmanuvartante manusyaḥ; partha... Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. So proportionately they realize the Personality of Godhead Krsna in a different way. But He advises that "Why don't you take the direct way?" Therefore he says at the last chapter, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], "Directly become Krsna conscious."

Indian man (1): That doesn't need any puja then. Just take His sarana and everything will be okay?

Prabhupada: No. That sarana means... That includes... That is bhakti.

Indian man (1): Even a tulasi dala and a little water is not necessary?

Prabhupada: No necessary, necessary, necessary because mam ekam saranam vraja. That is the path of bhakti. It is also confirmed, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].

Indian man (1): Bhakti is in the mind, in the heart.

Prabhupada: No, not in the mind. No, no. Bhakti is in the heart, but there must be... Just like if you have got love for me in the heart, it must be demonstrated. Just like a husband and wife. The wife is says, "Now we are married and I have got love for you. Let me remain here. You go to your home." The bridegroom comes, "Now we are married and I love you, you love me. You go home, I remain here." Is that very good proposal?

Indian man (1): No, but this...

Prabhupada: This is nonsense. (laughing) "I have got bhakti, but I don't do anything for You. You go home." So that is not bhakti. Bhakti must be exhibited by activity. That is the definition of bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. So these are the nine different ways of expressing bhakti. First thing is sravanam. Sravanam. Sravanam kirtanam, chanting and hearing. Of whom? Of Visnu. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ;. Not of any other one. The Mayavadi philosophers, they say that "We can chant anyone's name, either I chant of any demigod's name or any name."

Indian man (1): But does He not say that "Whatever or whoever does it, it comes to Me."

Prabhupada: That is avidhi-purvakam. That is said, avidhi-purvakam, "Not in order."

ye 'py anya-devata-bhakta
yajanti sraddhanvitaḥ;
te 'pi mam eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-purvakam

That is not vidhi. Vidhi is here. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; smaranam pada-sevanam. The first word is Visnu, of Visnu, not of any other. So these are the demonstration of bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam [SB 7.5.23]. This is arcana. Just like we perform in the morning, in the evening, at noon, arca-vigraha. Visnu, arcayam, Visnu. It is not idol worship. Arcayam visnu-sila-dhiḥ;. If one thinks the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity in the temple, as stone or as wood, arcayam visnu-sila-dhiḥ; gurusu nara-matiḥ;... To accept guru, in the parampara system... All the gurus in the parampara system... Evam parampara praptam [Bg. 4.2]. Nara-matiḥ;, consider him as ordinary human being... In this way there is a list. Vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ;. A Vaisnava, a devotee: "He is brahmana Vaisnava. He is American Vaisnava. He is sudra Vaisnava." No. When one is Vaisnava, there should be no distinction by the caste. Vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ;. In this way there is a list that should be avoided. So these things required. If actually... The same thing, that if a girl is married to the husband, she must be always engaged in the service of the husband. That will be appreciated. If she says, "Sir, now we are married. You go home and I remain at home," there will be no prayojana-siddhi. The real purpose of marriage is to get children. Putrarthe kriyate bharya. So if the husband and wife simply love within the mind and there is no action, there is no prayojana-siddhi. We should be practical, not simply theoretical. So love between two persons, there must be exchange of loving feelings. These are the exchange of loving feelings. Unless the exchange loving feelings are there, that is not love. That is theoretical. That is not practical. It is... I have explained in the beginning of Krsna Book that love is practical exhibition. It is not theoretical. We cannot keep love within the heart. If actually it is within the heart, it must be expressed practically, and these are the... If I love you, then as soon as there is some news, "Oh, Dr. Ghosh is coming?" I shall be very much interested to hear about you, when you are coming, how you are coming. That is love. So that is sravanam. If one has love for God, he must hear about God. That is purpose, sravanam. And if he has heard about God, then he must chant also. He should, I mean to say, preach to others, "Oh, God is like this, God is like that, God is so beautiful, He does like this, He does like that." That is kirtana. Sravanam kirtanam. Smaranam. Smaranam means always remembering. Without sravanam kirtanam... Just like this chanting. When I say Hare Krsna, immediately I remember Krsna, Krsna's form, Krsna's pastimes, Krsna's, everything of Krsna, automatically, His quality, His beauty. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. To be engaged in the service of the lotus feet as Laksmiji is being engaged in the service of the Lord, anantam...

Indian man (1): Why do we prefer pada and not the head or the hands? What is the rationale?

Prabhupada: That is impudency. That is impudency. The worship of the Deity should begin from the leg, from the feet. That is respect. Just like my disciples offer respect and touches my feet, not my head. That is impudency. You cannot touch head. Head is touched when I give him, "All right, be blessed." I shall touch his head, and he shall touch my feet. This is the process. You cannot touch the superior head. That is impudency. You cannot jump over like that.

Indian man (1): It's a part of the body. It is only a...

Prabhupada: That's all right. But that is the system. That is the system. You should begin. That... That is described in the Bhagavatam. The First and Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam are the two legs of Krsna. That is the beginning. Janmady asya yataḥ; [SB 1.1.1]. These professional reciters, they read Bhagavata. They jump over immediately to the face. The Tenth Canto is described as the face of Krsna. So you cannot go immediately to the head. You must begin from the feet. First Canto, Second Canto. Therefore there are nine cantos, and then Tenth Canto. And the Krsna's rasa dance, that is the smiling of Krsna. So you cannot ask the superior to take the facility of his smiling. Smiling will be when he is pleased. The difficulty is that the Mayavadi philosophy, they do not accept the form of the Lord. And they do not know how to behave with the form. Of course, there is no difference between Krsna's face and Krsna's feet. There is no difference. But still, the system must be followed. Pada-sevanam. It is very important verse. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; [SB 7.5.23]. When one has heard, when one has properly chanted, he has little experience of the transcendental form of the Lord, then his service beginning. Just like I engage one servant. So gradually he is given service. "First of all this, first of all that, then..." Again and again, again, again. The same example can be given, that the husband and wife. Formerly, when I was married, my wife was eleven years old. So (laughing) an eleven years old girl and I was at the same time twenty-one, twenty-two. One day I captured her hand. She began to cry. A little girl, you see? So gradually, gradually. I know... When my brother-in-law, sister's husband, used to come... In the beginning, the girls were very... My sisters were same age. So they would meet the husband, offering a little pan or little sandesa. [break] ...after this. Then nisṭha. Then he has got a firm conviction that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and my duty is to serve Krsna." That is called nisṭha. Then ruci. Then he increases taste. He cannot go out. He cannot go out of this jurisdiction. Just like these boys, they have come from Europe, America. They are attached. Otherwise I am not giving them bribe. I have no money. Why they are attached to serve me any way? If I say that "You die," he will die. Why this attachment? This is development of Krsna consciousness, development of Krsna consciousness. Ruci, asakti, tato bhava. Then bhava. Bhava means Krsna consciousness fully developed. Then love. Then love. Love is actually exhibited. Then "Let me serve Krsna in this way, in that way, that way, that way." You see? Fully engaged. This is the process. You cannot say that "Let my love be stagnant in my heart. There is no exhibition." No. There must be exhibition. That is the symptom of love. Otherwise why Rupa Gosvami resigned from his ministership? He was a devotee from the very beginning. He is nitya-siddha, eternal devotee. But he gave up everything. Tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍali-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat. Rupa Gosvami. About Rupa Gosvami and all the Gosvamis, this is described that tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim. They were ministers. Their associates were big, big personalities, manḍala-pati. Big, big leaders. Manḍala-pati means big, big leaders. Just like in Indian villages, still there is one man, chief man, he is called manḍala. Or there are many manḍalas, and there is one head, manḍala-pati. So tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim. He was meeting with big, big zamindars, big, big leaders, big, big... Because he was minister. So he gave up all this association. Tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍala. Not one, two, but many, he gave up. "What is the value of this association? What is the value? They are not Krsna conscious." So gave up. Tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat. "What is the value of these things?" Tuccha-vat. Bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau. Just to show favor to the mass of people he became a mendicant. Dina-ganesakau karunaya. Just like Gandhi also did that. Although he was the greatest leader, he was living like a mendicant, one loincloth. That's all. Manḍala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau. Then how he managed? Just like we have seen practically in the life of C.R. Das. He was living very luxuriously. You know, C.R. Das.

Indian man (1): I know.

Prabhupada: Yes. And he was earning fifty-thousand rupees at that time, fifty years ago. What is the value, just see. He was earning and spending like anything, lavishly, and he was so bad associated that wine and woman was his paraphernalia. That's all. As soon as there will be case engaged the first order is that "You have to supply so many cases of wine and so many batches of prostitute." That was C.R. Dasa's condition, first condition. In the Mopaceel(?) court when he would be invited to plead, the first condition is this. Then his fees. So in this way he was living. But he gave up. On Congress Movement he gave up everything practiced, but he died within one year. Because he was living so luxuriously, all of a sudden he became a renouncer, he could not tolerate that. He died. Within one year he died. So therefore these ministers, they gave up all this luxurious life, became a mendicant. The question is how they lived? Tyaktva turnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina kan... Then gopi-bhava-rasamrtadhi-lahari-kallola-magnau sada: They were fully absorbed in the thought of how Krsna, and His pastimes with His gopis. He was always absorbed. Vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau. This is exhibition. When one becomes ecstatic, "Oh, now I have to do something for Krsna," then he renounces everything. Only Krsna. Only Krsna's business. That is the test. That is the test. What is the use of spiritual advancement? Spiritual advancement means these material things given up. That is spiritual advancement. That is... The example is given, bhaktiḥ; paresanubhavoḥ; viraktir anyatra syat. As soon as one develops real bhakti, he will be averse to all these material things. That is the first sign. "No more these things." Bhaktiḥ; paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. Just like if you are hungry and if you are given some food, if you are satisfied, then the same food will be denied by you. "No, no, no. I don't want anymore." Full satisfaction. Just like Dhruva Maharaja said, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. When he fully became perfect and Narayana was present before him, He asked him, "What benediction you want? You take." He said, svamin krtartho 'smi: "Simply by seeing You, by Your presence, I am fully satisfied. No more benediction. I don't want any benediction." This is bhakti. Bhaktiḥ; paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat. [break] ...ca labha-santusṭau. No more demand. "Whatever by Krsna's grace comes, that's all right. And not comes, it doesn't matter." The other sloka also, nirasi, That is bhakti. Otherwise how one can be satisfied in any condition of life unless there is bhakti? That is the test. The test is that he has got something. Yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tataḥ;. If he actually achieves Krsna, then he does not think that anything better than this. That I see amongst these Europeans and American boys and girls. They have seen it, that "It is better than our so-called material life." Therefore they have been able to give up. Just like this boy Giriraja, he is very rich man's son. His father gave him a special car. His father is a big lawyer in Chicago. So he gave up everything. Now he is begging daily, although he is earning at least fifty-thousand rupees per month. But he has no... He is just like beggar. He doesn't care for his father. There are many like this. Bhaktiḥ; paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. These are the test. Hare Krsna. (Hindi) [break] ...devotee. Then all the good qualities will be manifested in his person. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunaḥ; mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ;. And if one is not a perfect devotee of Krsna, of Hari, then he cannot possess any mahad-guna. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunaḥ;. Why? Mano-rathena: "He is simply hovering in the mental plane." He is not fixed up. Therefore asato dhavato bahiḥ;. Then he will have to do something which is asat. Asato mam sad gama. That is the Vedic... "Don't remain in the asat; just make progress to the sat." That is wanted. That cannot be done unless one is fully situated in unalloyed devotional service of the Lord. That is not possible. One must go to the asat, because he is hovering on the mental plane. Mental plane is not secure. Anyone who is in mental plane, he may fall down at any moment. So we have to transcend the mental plane. Intellectual plane. Jñana-karmady-anavrtam.

anyabhilasita-sunyam
jñana-karmady-anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]

This is bhakti, simply to abide by the orders of Krsna, fully engaged. Anukulyena, favorable, as Krsna wanted Arjuna, "You fight!" So he did not like to fight. He was non-violent, so-called. But Krsna wants. Krsna wants, anukulyena. Krsna must be satisfied. It doesn't matter whether I am satisfied or not. But here things are going that "Krsna, we don't care. If Your instruction does not appeal to me, to my sense satisfaction, I don't like it." This is going on. Nobody likes to satisfy Krsna. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Nobody is prepared to that. "If Krsna satisfies my whims, then I accept Krsna." This is going on. That is not bhakti. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you have to abide by the orders of Krsna. That is called bhakti. [break] ...in devotional service. Without devotional service, all activities, they are false, simply just like jumping like the monkey. What is the value? The monkey is always busy, but his business has no value. His business has no value. Therefore as soon as one monkey..., "Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out!" But he is always busy. So to become busy like a monkey has no value. To busy, to become busy as a devotee, that has value. That is Krsna consciousness. The Mayavadi philosophy is that "This business is useless, so stop it altogether." No. That is negation. If you stop... Just like a child, if you stop playing mischief, always doing, then he will be mad, psychologically. You must give him some engagement, better engagement, so that he will not commit any more mischief. So bhakti is a service, activity. If he is not engaged in activity, then he will become again a rascal. Because we are living entities. We are not dead stone. That is bhakti. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam, hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Engage, hrsika means the senses. The senses must be engaged. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam. Now the senses are engaged for my sense gratification. So it should be purified, no more sense gratification. But the senses must have engagement. And how? That is in the service of the Lord. That is real activity. So bhakti is not that it is simply negation. There must be positive action. That is bhakti. [break]

Indian man (1): ...exist?

Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly.

Indian man (1): Have you seen?

Prabhupada: And you have not seen so many things. Does it mean that does not exist? You are researching. You have not seen. As a scientist...

Indian man (1): I have heard lots of ghost stories, but...

Prabhupada: No, no, it is not stories. We are hearing from Bhagavata. It is authority. We are not hearing the stories of a third-class man. We are hearing from Vyasadeva. Vyasadeva...

Indian man (1): But you see, up till now, in my long life of eighty years...

Prabhupada: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyasadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyasa, full of all knowledge, and Bhagavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. [break] Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedanta-sutra, sastra caksusa.

Indian man (1): But it should be proved.

Prabhupada: It is true because it is spoken by Vyasadeva. How you say it is false? You cannot say that. That is blasphemy.

Indian man (1): In olden days there used to be the ghosts and all these things, but now that is gradually...

Prabhupada: But gradually... That does not mean you have improved very much. Because you do not believe in the ghost...

Indian man (1): Our mental condition has improved.

Prabhupada: No, that does not mean... There are ghosts. Ghost means subtle life. It is not gross. So people know and has got some idea of the ghost, but they have no descriptive idea. Here is a descriptive idea. That is sastra. Just like less than the sudras, it is called pañcamas. How many pañcamas are there, that is described in the Bhagavata. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanaḥ; khasadayaḥ; [SB 2.4.18]. That is sastra. Gives full explanation, full knowledge. Sastra caksusa. We have to accept through the sastra. Not that "Because I have not seen, therefore it is false." No. Vyasadeva has no business to tell you something false. Otherwise he would not have been accepted as the supreme guru by all the sampradayas. You cannot defy Vyasadeva. He is saying, you have to accept. "I have seen. I have no experience," that doesn't matter. So many things you do not know. Just like a child has no experience what is the other side of the sea. Does it mean that there is nothing? A child may say like that, but a person who has visited the Arabian countries and others, "Oh no, no, no. There are so many things." So experience should be taken from a person who has got real experience. Not that "Because I cannot see, it is void." That is not experience.

Giriraja: Do ghosts refer to categories of ghosts or particular famous? These names...

Prabhupada: Yes, categories. Yes. There are so many. Just like human beings. Human beings. There are Americans, Indians and Africans and so many, so... One knows that human being, and one knows in descriptive way. So whose knowledge is perfect?

Giriraja: Descriptive.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is descriptive.

Giriraja: (reading) "And similar other evil spirits will cause persons to forget..."

Prabhupada: Evil spirit everyone believes, every country. In London there are so many ghosts. When I was in John Lennon's house, so they complained, "In this one house, every night a ghost comes." You see? So I advised them "Chant Hare Krsna. It will go away." Then it actually so happened.

Yasomatinandana: In many of our temple buildings also...

Prabhupada: Yes. No, I have got experience. In our Calcutta house, there was ghost. In Lucknow when I started that laboratory in Mr. Bhattacarya's house in Vat-nagara(?), there was a ghost. I have practical experience. My servant...

Indian man (1): I have heard a few cases. You see. I was reported that they see in that house there was ghost, and he used to put clothes to fire and they have to run for water to extinguish it. Then I went and examined. He was a friend of mine. Then I ultimately detected that his own wife got hysterical and used to do all those things.

Prabhupada: No, that is also possible. But...

Indian man (1): You see? So I discovered that there is no ghost, and I explained to them...

Prabhupada: No, that is also possible. Sometimes we are misled. But ghosts, in every country, there are so many books, and especially it is mentioned in the Vedic literature also. Bhuta-preta-yoni. Bhuta-preta-yoni. That is described. Out of many forms of life, these bhuta-preta-yonis is also. Nana-yoni. Nana-yoni. There are different sources of birth. So bhuta-preta-yoni is also mentioned there, species of life. [break] Bhuta-preta is mentioned.

Indian Man (2): Krsna says, bhutani yanti bhutejya. [break]

Giriraja: "...for other evil spirits who cause persons to forget their own existence and give trouble to the life air and the senses. Sometimes they appear in dreams and cause much perturbation. Sometimes they appear as old women and suck the blood of small children. But all such ghosts and evil spirits cannot remain where there is chanting of the holy name of God."

Prabhupada: That's it. [break] ...Visnu. That is the injunction. Of Visnu. In the Pañjika, you will find in the Bengali Pañjika, when there is some auspicious sign, they have recommended, "Chant the name of Visnu." Have you seen in the Pañjika? Yes. [break]

Giriraja: "...and persons who are still following the Vedic ways, especially householders, keep at least one dozen cows and worship the Deity of Lord Visnu..." [break]

Prabhupada: In Indian villages—I have seen in Bengal—they keep cows, and they have got Visnu sila, especially in the house of a brahmana, all high caste (?). Yes. [break] Prahlada Maharaja, his father was a demon, but he was never afraid of Him. He was challenging, "Oh, my father..." He never said, "Father." He said, asura-varya: "the best of the demons." Tat sadhu manye asura-varya dehinam. When his father asked him, "My dear Prahlada..." After all, he was child. "What you have learned best?" So he said, tat sadhu manye asura-varya. He is addressing his father, asura-varya, "the best of the demons." Tat sadhu manye: "I consider it very nice thing." Tat sadhu manye 'sura-varya dehinam.

Dr. Patel: So you think we are demons also.

Prabhupada: No. (lots of laughter) Demons would not come daily to see Krsna's arati. That they'll not. That they'll not. No. I say that...

Dr. Patel: Tomorrow we are going to walk all the distance.

Prabhupada: Yes. I say that we devotees, we are not afraid even of demons. Hare Krsna. [break] Asad-grahat. Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. He asked the son, "What you have learned, the best thing, in school?" He said, "My dear asura-varya," not father, "My dear best of the demons, I think this is the best thing." "What is that?" "Now, these people," sada samudvigna-dhiyam, "always anxious, full of anxiety..." Why? Asad-grahat: "Because they accepted this material world as all in all." Sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat: "On account of their accepting this material world as everything, therefore they are full of anxiety. Now, to get out of this anxiety, so-hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam-atma-patam, suicidal place, grha, household life, they should give up." Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam. "And then what you will do?" "Oh." vanam gato: "He should give up and go to the forest." "And then?" Vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta: [SB 7.5.5] "And take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. I understand this is the best thing." And his father become more angry. "What this rascal is speaking?" like that. (laughing) (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. He's all right? Hare Krsna. Thank you. [break]

Giriraja: "...all the cowherd men who went to Mathura to pay tax returned home and were struck with wonder at seeing the gigantic dead body of Putana." [break]

Prabhupada: Here is description of Putana, twelve miles. Big gigantic body. And nobody has seen such gigantic body. But it is described in the Bhagavatam. [break] ...Maharaja was so simple, village man, that he accepted Vasudeva, a great mystic. Hare Krsna. A devotee says that "I prefer to become a dog in the house of a devotee."

vaisnava ṭhakura, tomara kukkura,
bhuliya janaha mora

He is praying, "My dear Vaisnava Thakura, you kindly accept me as your dog. But you accept me." You see? "And I shall do this, I shall do this. I shall sit down on your door. I shall not allow any nondevotee to disturb you." He has sung like...

vaisnava ṭhakura, tomara kukkura,
bhuliya janaha mora

"And I shall not ask you for any food. Whatever you like, you can give me a little eaten food. I will be satisfied. But keep me as your dog." That is the prayer, that Vaisnava is prepared to become a dog even at the house of a Vaisnava. That is Vaisnava. He doesn't want anything more. He wants simply to be associated with Krsna consciousness. That is Vaisnava. [break]

Lilavati: What is that prayer in Bengali?

Prabhupada: That is in Bengali. [break] ...tomara kukkura, bhuliya janaha more. [break]

Giriraja: "...all the residents of Vraja cut the gigantic body of Putana into pieces and piled it up with wood for burning." [break]

Prabhupada: Because she was killed by Krsna, the whole body has become sanctified. So when the body was burned, there was good aroma. [break]

Giriraja: "...aroma was due to her being killed by Krsna." [break]

Prabhupada: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. [break]

Giriraja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brahmanas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless."

Prabhupada: [break] ...social divisions. Catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. The other varnas, they would give simply to the brahmanas charity. And the brahmanas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is sudra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau sudra-sambhavaḥ;. There must be a brahminical class, a ksatriya class, a vaisya class, a sudra class. Not that all sudras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as sudra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Krsna. [break] Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Indian Man (2): Selfless class.

Prabhupada: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brahmana means spiritual guidance, ksatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brahmanas and ksatriyas? They are training everyone sudra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. [break] ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: daksyam udaram bharitaḥ;. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. [break] ...sankirtanaiḥ; prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ; [SB 11.5.32]. That is mentioned in the sastra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ; sankirtanaiḥ; prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ;. Sumedhasaḥ;. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. [break] Yajñad bhavati parjanyaḥ; parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ; [Bg. 3.14]. Annad bhavanti bhutani. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks, in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajña? [break] "...need of brahmana, there is no need of yajña," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make sudras." Now, how you will be happy? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all.

Indian man (1): But they have provided you with motorcars and aeroplanes to go across the sea, reach America, France, within a few hours.

Prabhupada: That's all right. That is also credit. Because they have done something...

Indian man (1): Something to spread this Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage: "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required.

Indian man (1): Cinema can be used for education.

Prabhupada: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe krsna sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Krsna." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.

Indian man (1): So for improving our morality.

Prabhupada: Yes, that "Everything, what you have done, it is all right. Utilize for sankirtana yajña." Nirbandhe krsna... Rupa Gosvami has recommended that

anasaktyasya visayan
yatharham upayuñjataḥ;
nirbandhe krsna-sambandhe
yukta-vairagyam ucyate

We have no attachment for these things. Just like in America, I ride on Rolls Royce car. That does not mean because in India there is no Rolls Royce car, therefore I shall not walk. We are not attached to all these things. But if it is available, we utilize it for Krsna's purpose. That's all. [break] ...the best use of a bad bargain. When there is a bad bargain, so intelligent man makes the best use. "All right, how it can be used for the best purpose?" That is wanted. [break] Newspaper men, they call me "jet plane parivrajakacarya." [break] But our process is for yajña.

Indian man (1): You spread it like...

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] We also say that "You take advantage of this, and also produce sufficient food grains so that people may not starve." Parjanyad anna-sambhavaḥ;. Annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. Unless there is sufficient grain... People are giving more stress how to produce machine, but they are not giving any stress how to produce foodstuff. So many land are lying vacant. You go in India. So many lands. Not only in India. In other countries also. In England also we have seen. They are not taking care. Because it is very troublesome to put... "Better start a factory and get money easily."

Indian man (1): They are now thinking about it. "Green revolution."

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. [break] So much land is lying vacant. They could utilize for food grains. No. They do not do it. [break] ...they have been withdrawn from the villages to work in the city, in the factories, and the lands are lying vacant. [break] Mahima siddhi, to become heavier. Anima, laghima, mahima, prapti, siddhi. There are eight kinds of yoga-siddhis. So those who are yoga siddha... Krsna is Yogesvara. He became so heavy. [break] Hare Krsna. Thank you very much. [break] ...aeroplane, it comes gradually, there is no crashing, but if it drops all of a sudden, then it is crashed. So this Trnavartasura could not do that. He felt so heavy, fell down.

Giriraja: "He hit the stone ground and his limbs were smashed. His body became visible to all the inhabitants of Vrndavana. When the gopis..." [break]

Prabhupada: ...the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the performances of all austerities. One can get the result of all austerities simply by serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Giriraja: "...made charities and performed many welfare activities for the public, such as growing banyan trees and excavating wells. As a result of these pious activities, we have got back our child." [break]

Prabhupada: ...very nice building. And one day death will come, "Oh, what is this?" Finish now. Mrtyuḥ; sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. And as soon as death comes, all this construction becomes ah, finished. You have to begin another chapter, either as human being or as bird or cats and dogs or anything. That is another thing. But they do not know this. They are thinking that "This construction work will save me."

dehapatya-kalaṭradisu
atma-sainyesu asatsv api
pramattaḥ; tasya nidhanam
pasyann api na pasyati
[SB 2.1.4]

That these children, they are seeing that "This thing will not exist. It has no value." But they are still busy, (laughs) still busy. Similarly, everyone knows that "Whatever we are constructing, it will be finished," but still, they are busy. They are not interested in Krsna consciousness.

Giriraja: "Now he has come back to enliven his relatives. After observing such..."

Prabhupada: So our policy is that if you want to construct, if you have got the tendency, so you construct for Krsna. That will be service. Construct a temple for Krsna. So that service will be taken into account. Similarly, when we use this motorcar or aeroplane, so in the same purpose... Now they have done this, let it be engaged in Krsna conscious service. So one who has manufactured it, he will be benefited, and others will be benefited.

Giriraja: "After observing such wonderful happenings, Nanda Maharaja began to think of the words of Vasudeva again and again." [break]

Prabhupada: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple, simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is ksatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaisya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so, foreseer." [break]

Giriraja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality?

Prabhupada: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva-dharma... He is a vaisya, He should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhavaḥ;. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business.

Giriraja: "After this incident, when Yasoda was once nursing..."

Prabhupada: But one thing is that Vasudeva was also thinking of Krsna and he is also thinking of Krsna. As a simple agriculturist, he is also thinking of Krsna. And Vasudeva also, when he was asking him, "Go and take care of your children there," that was thinking of Krsna. If the thinking of Krsna is there, then either ksatriya or vaisya or brahmana, it doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same benefit.

ya esam purusam saksad
atma-prabhavam isvaram
na bhajanty avajananti
sthanam bhrasṭaḥ; patanty adhaḥ;

Everyone should understand that "Whatever I may be, I am eternal servant of Krsna." So if this consciousness is maintained and everyone is engaged in the service of Krsna by his work and by his occupational duty, then he is perfect.

Giriraja: "After this incident, when Yasoda was nursing her child and patting Him with great affection, there streamed a profuse supply of milk from her breast, and when she opened the mouth of the child with her fingers, she suddenly saw the universal manifestation within His mouth." [break]

Prabhupada: ...Krsna here?" And died. He died. "Is your Krsna here?" And died immediately. He said his mother, "Mother, you chant Krsna, Hare Krsna," because he has learned this. So after hearing, she inquired, "Is your Krsna here?" And died. So I told him, "You have done the best service to your mother." (end)