Italian Man (1): It is the most satisfying thing I have been reading up to now. I have been searching through the Tibetan Books of the Dead, but it wasn't enough, and this is beyond that. It is really complete.

Prabhupada: In your country people will like it? They would like these ideas?

Italian Man (1): Oh, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. I have such a keen interest in going to see what the situation is because I... [break] ...for Venice.

Prabhupada: Oh, Venice.

Italian Man (1): Yes. So it would be so fantastic to present them a platform of religion so...

Prabhupada: It is not religion. Of course it is religion. But the religion, as it is misunderstood in European countries that religion is a kind of faith, but it is not like that. It is science. It is fact. Religion, you have got some faith. That may not be right. It may be wrong. Just like the Christian religion, they have got faith in this way, that animal has no soul. Do you know that?

Italian Man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: That's not a fact. Do you agree or not?

Italian Man (1): I do.

Prabhupada: Animal also has soul.

Italian Man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Why do they disagree, that animal has no soul? What is the point? Why do they say?

Italian Man (1): Because they don't like to identify themselves with animals. Because if they admit that animals have a soul, then they have to identity, means they are afraid of identifying with animals. They feel they are superior to animals. We are superior to animals, indeed, but...

Prabhupada: That is by intelligence. We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. Yes. The evolution of different types of body means evolution of intelligence. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, the flower is there. But the fragrance or the beauty has not yet developed. So unless the things are there, how it can develop? Similarly, the soul is there in every living entity, but according to the development of the body, evolution of the body, the intelligence becomes manifest. Otherwise, what is the meaning of education? Education means to develop the intelligence. That is education.

Italian Man (1): Are you thinking of formal education now?

Prabhupada: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch." Jaya, Hare Krsna. (Hindi, aside) So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Krsna consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Krsna consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position, what he is actually, and acts like that, that is called Krsna consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Krsna, that is called buddhi-yogam. Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gita it is described, buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti. Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but... Don't come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gata antar-atmana [Bg. 6.47]. All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Krsna always within oneself. That is being practiced, Hare Krsna. The topmost yoga system. [break] You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization.

Italian Man (1): Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Greek civilization, Roman civilization, is the beginning of European civilization. So your position is very nice.

Italian Man (1): Well, yes. When I was a child I was brought up to go to the mass every morning, and I used to answer in Latin, you know, and serve the priest.

Prabhupada: Oh!

Italian Man (1): Yes. Even twice a day until the age of fourteen, and then we went to catechism. And then I left, I left alone, you know, by my own will. [break] It would be fantastic to go back with a background of, with the knowledge of Krsna and talk to them about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. [break] ...this boy, he is going to develop our Italian center, Rome. [break]

Italian Man (1): ...the personal and impersonal features of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Italian Man (1): Krsna, being at the same time infinite expansion of energy and also being form, a person.

Prabhupada: Yes, person. Originally He is person.

Italian Man (1): In the heart, you know.

Prabhupada: That is another expansion of Krsna. Localized.

Italian Man (1): Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine. Hare Krsna (Hindi) (aside:) [break] ...what is impersonal and personal. What is that? Repeat it, what I have said.

Italian Man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal?

Prabhupada: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal?

Italian Man (1): Is that Krsna also has a... He's a person. He is not only all-pervading abstract energy.

Prabhupada: He is all-pervading.

Italian Man (1): Yes, but He also is a person.

Prabhupada: Not also. He is person. This all pervasive influence or all pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun disc. Try to understand it very... Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Krsna, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavan iti. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan [SB 1.2.11]. Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, Vivasvan. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. He is a person. Now you cannot see the person so easily.

Italian Man (1): Exactly. I wanted to ask you about Krsna in the heart. Could you tell us something about His physiognomy.

Prabhupada: Yes. His physiognomy is sac-cid-ananda vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. That we can understand. Sac-cid-ananda. He is eternal, He is full of knowledge and He is blissful. Sac-cid-ananda. Your body, my body, is just opposite. It is not eternal, it is temporary. And it is full of ignorance. Therefore we require knowledge. (aside:) Little away, yes. So this is full of ignorance, and there are so many miseries. So Krsna hasn't got a body like this. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Krsna's body is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. So we can distinguish what is Krsna's body and what is our body. [break] ...understand. Try to understand, that what is the nature... That is called spiritual body. So we have got also similar body, but very small, very small. That is covered by this material body. And because in the spiritual body I am person, I have got form, therefore the material elements have taken a form. Just like when your coat is made, it is made according to your body. Because you have got hands, so the coat has got a hand. But the hand of the coat is not real. The real hand is within the coat. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Within. These foolish people, they do not understand. They take, "This is hand. This is hand." He does not know that this hand is artificial, outward. Real hand is within. This is their misconception. Hare Krsna. Try to understand. These are very important question. Hare Krsna. Because within the coat the real man is there, therefore the dress has assumed two hands, two legs, one collar, like that. But this is false, like dress. Real... Therefore every living entity has got form. He is not formless. This less intelligent class of men, because they cannot see the form... It is so small... It is so small that if you divide the top portion of your hair into ten thousand parts,...

Italian Man (1): Your one hair into ten thousand parts.

Prabhupada: The top portion, tip of the hair, the point, you divide into ten thousand parts, and that one part is the form of the soul. It is such minute, small... Because they cannot see, they say it is nirakara. No, it is not nirakara. It is there.

Italian Man (1): Can I ask you one question?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Italian Man (1): When we see Krsna in us, in our hearts, the moment Krsna comes, the moment that the link takes place with Krsna in our hearts...

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna is always within your heart.

Italian Man (1): Yes. But at the moment that our soul opens itself and succeeds in putting a link... [break] I mean, I'm sorry, I mean...

Prabhupada: He has this feature.

Italian Man (1): It is a matter of words. It is difficult to explain this.

Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot create God.

Italian Man (1): No, of course not.

Prabhupada: These Mayavadi philosophers, they create God. Anthropomorphism. What is that anthropomorphism.

Satsvarupa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ananda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Krsna is speaking Bhagavad-gita. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gita is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Krsna is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Krsna is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Krsna.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Krsna hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Krsna, you will see always, young man. You will never see Krsna's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.

Italian Man (1): In our heart.

Prabhupada: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Krsna's position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries, birth, death, old age and disease. So eternal body has no such miseries. Therefore it is blissful. Therefore it is full of knowledge. As soon as you get your eternal body, which is already there within this temporary body, then you also become blissful and full of knowledge. That is oneness. One in quality. Krsna has got this body, eternal, blissful, full of knowledge. So when you get this body, then you are becoming equal in quality, not in quantity. Your question is answered?

Italian Man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: If you have got any doubt, you can still ask.

Italian Man (1): Maybe... May I emphasize... [break]

Prabhupada: We have got your photo. So... but the difference is that your photograph and you are different. Because the photograph is of the temporary body, therefore it is not absolute. But Krsna, being everything, Krsna's photograph is also Krsna.

Italian Man (1): Yes, okay, thank you. Thank you.

Prabhupada: Is it all right?

Italian Man (1): Yes, thank you.

Prabhupada: Krsna is everything. So His photograph is also Krsna. It is not that foolish people, they worship a photograph. No. It is reality. It is reality. Yes. [break] Krsna is everything. Can you explain? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Who can explain? Explain, yes.

Yasomatinandana: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi... [Bg. 7.8]. [break]

Prabhupada: Bhumir apo analo vayuḥ; [Bg. 7.4]. Because this material world means these elements, this earth, this water, then fire, then air, then sky—five elements. So what are these elements? These elements are Krsna's energy. Bhumir apo analo vayuḥ;.

Italian Man (1): Material energy.

Prabhupada: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies, heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Krsna's energy. Therefore everything is Krsna. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparations. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagulla, you prepare burfi and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Krsna. [break] Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer. That is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy.

Italian Man (1): I see, yes, yes. And the difference between the impersonalist, I mean, and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not believe...

Prabhupada: No, no, believe... You don't believe or not believe, it doesn't matter. We are explaining science. If somebody says, "No, there is no temperature," that is foolishness. There is temperature. How can you say there is no temperature? There is temperature. Even you go to the water, there is temperature. Everywhere. Because the elements are all there, bhumir apo analo vayu... The beginning is the akasa, ether. The ether is in the air, the air is in the fire, the fire is in the water, and the earth is in the water. This is this way. And in the earth you will find everything. You will find air, ether, water, fire, everything. And the final state, it is ether only, originally. So suppose I am breathing. It is ethereal. But so many things are coming. If I am contaminated, by touching my breathing, you will be contaminated, and it will come out as disease.

Italian Man (1): Can you repeat please?

Prabhupada: Just like this breathing is ethereal, but if there is potency... There is potency. So by being contaminated by my breathing, you become contaminated, and it comes out again as disease. So the ethereal composition is the origin. Then gradually, it develops. Ether into air, air into fire, fire into water, water into earth. [break] ...consideration of the gross thing. How the gross thing coming into existence from subtle thing, they do not know it. That is less intelligent. They cannot think very, what is called, minutely.

Italian Man (1): And beyond ether?

Prabhupada: Just like the same example. The breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad-gita everything is explained, "From Me. I am the origin of everything." Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is... This has to be..., how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that...

Italian man: The second manifestation of fire is heat and light?

Prabhupada: ...is heat and light.

Italian Man (1): And fire is...?

Prabhupada: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless, but fire is not formless. Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the form-less, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham... The name is also given, what is the name of that person. [break]

Indian Man (1): ...recently what we read from the papers. There is so many... So far, nobody tells us that there is a moon-god over there. Although they have gone to particular one place only or two, three places only, not the whole moon, but still, nobody comes from. They say nobody is there and...

Prabhupada: But these bodies are imperfect. They are not perfect. The moon may not be exposed to them, these rascals. Because a king is not exposed to the ordinary man... Unless one is fit to see him, king is not exposed. That does not mean there is no king. If some rascal says, "There is no president, there is no king," that is his rascaldom, not that there is no king, no president. He cannot see. He has not that qualification. Is that correct?

Indian Man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. One who has no qualification, he says, because he could not see somebody, he sees, "There is no such existence." Is that a good conclusion?

Indian Man (1): Good psychology.

Prabhupada: He is a rascal. He is not fit to be seen by the great personality. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, naham prakasaḥ; sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtaḥ; [Bg. 7.25]. You cannot see the sun-god. Does it mean there is no sun-god? What is the value of your eyes? It is imperfect. You are seeing the sun just like a disc, but it is fourteen hundred thousands of times bigger than this earth. Can you see it? Then what is the power of your seeing? Whatever you are seeing, that is defective. So don't be proud of seeing. What is your eyes? What is the value of your eyes? You cannot see even the eyelid. Can you see the eyelid? Although it is attached to your eyeball. So what is the power? Why you are so much proud of seeing? First of all, understand that "I am so defective, I cannot see perfectly, properly." And you want to see God with these defective eyes?

Indian Man (2): Arjuna also says that he cannot see God. He saw the light only.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was speaking with Krsna. Still, he said that "I cannot see You." That is a fact. [break] Premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ; sadaiva vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. If you have got qualified eyes, you can see Krsna always, twenty-four hours. So we have to qualify, purify. Sarvopadhi-vinir... You are seeing. You are trying to see God as American, as Indian, as this and that. With that eyes you cannot see. When you are neither American nor Indian nor brahmana nor sudra, you are pure spirit, then you can see. They want to remain with this designation-body and want to see God. That is not possible. To enter fire you have to become fire. Otherwise, it will be not possible to enter fire. So without Brahman realization, you cannot understand what is Krsna. Brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. [break] ...is the same. Quality, it is same. It is salt, salty. And the whole ocean is also salty. That is tat tvam asi. "You are also salty," if I say. If the drop of the water, I say that "This is also salty," that is tat tvam asi. Not that he has become the whole sea. This is rascaldom. [break] ...God create another ocean in the sky. Then you are God. When there is some tooth pain, you go to the doctor, and you are God. Just see how much nonsense they are. As soon as there is tooth pain, "Oh, oh. Just now I am not God, I am patient." So these things are going on. I have seen so many gods. I have seen one that Dr. Misra. When he had a toothache, "Ohhh, oh." You see? [break] ...cheap philosophy, by misunderstanding the whole world has become atheists, all rascals. Atheist means rascal number one, muḍhaḥ;, asurim bhavam asritaḥ;. As soon as one becomes atheist, he is rascal number one. [break]

Indian Man (1): ...just in the beginning, when they are in the world, the atheists...

Prabhupada: Atheists, they say that "We have not seen God."

Indian Man (1): But they need support of God in the beginning. Without that, they cannot go to that...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is always. Therefore they are fools. They cannot become atheists. If somebody says that "I do not believe in God," this saying will be stopped immediately by God. He cannot do anything. And that is God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, mrtyuḥ; sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. When God comes as mrtyuḥ;, then all His talking is finished. "I don't believe in God, there is no God," finished. So control that death. Because death takes all your possession, your talking, your riches, your body, everything will be taken away. Now, why do you allow to, death, overtake you? Why do you allow? If you are God, check it.

Indian Man (2): Yes, yes, don't allow your death to come.

Prabhupada: Yes, then you are God.

Indian Man (1): This body is supposed to die.

Prabhupada: Why supposed? Why supposed? That is ignorance, "supposed." Because he cannot do anything, he suppose... Why?

Indian Man (1): Of course, we say this body is not say absolute or permanent.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Permanent, but who has made it this? You have not made. You make a permanent body. Then you are God.

Indian Man (1): That nobody can do.

Prabhupada: Therefore he is not God. That is existence of God. You cannot do because there is higher power controlling you. God means controller. He is controlling you. You cannot do that. Therefore you are not God. There is superior controller, who does not allow to do this. You have to abide by the laws. This is common sense reasoning. If you are being controlled, how you become God? God means the supreme controller. Is it all right? So long you will be controlled, you are not God. But where is the position that you are no more controlled? That position is never.

Indian Man (1): It is human nature; no doubt about it.

Prabhupada: Nature? What is this nature? Nature is an agency of God by which He controls. That is nature, that "I have got a stick. I can beat you. But the stick is not beating, I am beating." This is knowledge. And the rascal will think, "The stick is beating." What stick has got power?

Indian Man (1): Somebody is there.

Prabhupada: "Yeah, behind the stick there is my hand." That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ; suyate sa-caracaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My control the nature is working." But these rascals, they do not know. They think nature is working automatically. Even they accept, but they cannot control nature. Now, how he is God? You control nature. Suppose behind the nature there is no God. All right, you control the nature. Suppose behind this stick my hand is working. You cannot see my hand. But you control this stick, which is beating you, which is kicking you. Control that. So you cannot control anything and you have become God. So 'ham, tat tvam asi. These slogans misused, simply misused.

Indian Man (2): They say just something like a small degree to the people, all right, those who are coming...

Prabhupada: Childish, childish. Therefore they have been described as muḍha, muḍha. Muḍha means a child, they are foolish. Na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante naradhamaḥ; [Bg. 7.15]. [break] ...nabhijanati prakrtim mohinim sritaḥ;. Prakrtim mohinim sritaḥ;. What is that verse?

Devotee: Param bhavam ajanantaḥ;...

Prabhupada: Param bhavam ajananto mama-bhuta mahesvaram. Avajananti mam muḍha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. [break] ...says, bhumir apo analo vayuḥ; [Bg. 7.4]. This water is Krsna's energy. So how can you refute it? Krsna says, "It is My energy."

Indian Man (3): It is somebody's energy. That is definite. Because somebody is controlling it.

Prabhupada: No, no, not controlling.

Indian Man (1): You have to believe or imagine some entity. It may be Krsna or it...

Prabhupada: No, no, how can you disbelieve? First of all, thing is how can you disbelieve? Believe or not believe, that is another question. How you can... This water has come from some source. So what is that source?

Yasomatinandana: By our logical research we can come to Bhagavad-gita and find out Krsna is the only person in the whole world who says that "This comes from Me."

Prabhupada: Yes. Water comes from your body, perspiration. So why not from Krsna's body? Simple reasoning. [break] ...ananda-vigrahaḥ;. [break] ...tap produces water. An inanimate object, a small material thing, it produces water. And Krsna cannot produce such water? [break] ...potency. They are explained. But because we do not go to the right teacher, we do not understand. That is the difficulty.

Indian Man (1): But the teachers give different interpretation of the same thing.

Prabhupada: No. The same thing means he is a rascal teacher. He is not teacher. He is cheater. When a cheater takes the place of a teacher, he explains differently. And when a teacher is there, he will explain rightly. Where is the difficulty? I have several times said that "Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gita?" There is not a single line which is very difficult to understand. Just like Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I first of all said this philosophy to Vivasvan, the sun-god." So where is the difficulty to understand this line? Where is the difficulty?

Indian Man (1): No difficulty in understanding. Interpretation...

Prabhupada: Why they should interpret? Interpretation is required when there is no understanding. If the matter is clearly understood, why interpretation? This is rascaldom. Everyone understands this is called glass. And what is the use of interpretation? Here is a glass. Everyone can understand. Or spectacle. No, no. This is meaning this. Why? If the thing is clearly understood, there is no question of interpretation. You cannot give. Suppose if you go to the court, if the thing is clearly understood that "This man has committed this criminal activity, he should be punished," so where is the difficulty? No. If somebody... "No no. This 'He should be punished' means not now, after three hundred years he should be punished." Is that interpretation? He should be punished immediately. That's all.

Indian Man (1): It's not like that. The material thing we can see from our...

Prabhupada: You are material, not spiritual. You are a material fool. Why do you interpret foolishly?

Indian Man (1): There's no doubt about it.

Indian Man (2): According to their brain and knowledge, they must have...

Prabhupada: That means rubbish brain, rubbish brain. You go, interpret and change the law. You go in the law court and you interpret in your own way. Can you interpret in the law court? "Sir, I have got a different interpretation." "Get out. Get out, rascal, from this..."

Indian Man (1): No, no. Even the judges in the Supreme Court in India, they go after the interpretations, they go and they become also one with the...

Prabhupada: No, no. That is extraordinarily. When the meaning of the law is not very clear, that takes place. But when the thing is very clear, there is no question of interpretation.

Indian Man (1): Why there is a fight? Because both the things, both the lawyers, they take it in different way and so they come to the judge.

Prabhupada: That's right. But it is not different in such a way that you call a spectacle a something else.

Indian Man (4): Bhagavad-gita is really...

Prabhupada: Yes, but it said in the Bhagavad-gita clearly, it is said clearly, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan: "I told this philosophy to Vivasvan." Where is the difficulty to understand? Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ;: [Bg. 1.1] "In the dharma-ksetre, kuru-ksetre, two parties willing to fight, they assembled." Where is the difficulty to understand? Why these rascals should interpret in a different way?

Indian Man (1): These are all... They are not interpreting that particular word.

Prabhupada: They are doing.

Yasomatinandana: There is nothing like Kuruksetra, they say.

Indian man (4): That is another group of people, their own brain creation. That we should not...

Prabhupada: What right you have got to interpret?

Indian Man (1): Whatever it is they are saying, but the real thing we should not interpret and we cannot.

Prabhupada: But you are, after all, material. You are not spiritual. In order to get you on the spiritual platform, things are being spoken by Krsna.

Indian Man (4): And to understand something we must have...

Prabhupada: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, "It is spiritual."

Indian Man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot...

Prabhupada: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense? The blind man is just, "Oh, the elephant is big pillar."

Indian Man (1): Same thing will say that elephant is only trunk.

Prabhupada: That's it. This kind of interpretation, what is the meaning?

Indian: They don't have that complete view of the whole.

Prabhupada: If you are blind, you accept that "I am blind man. I cannot study what is this elephant," that is another thing. That is good. And if you are blind and by blind eyes you, "Oh, elephant is a pillar."

Indian Man (1): Some other blind will say the trunk...

Prabhupada: So the blind man has no right to interpret. That is the point. Blind man... You are blind man. Remain as a blind man. Don't talk nonsense. That is our protest. Why should you interpret? You are blind man.

Indian Man (4): They should not try to, just around, create the meaning of it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, how can we tell the difference between the blind man and one who can see?

Prabhupada: Anyone can understand. Any foolish man can understand, "Here is a blind man; here is a man with eyes." It is not very difficult. Why do you question this? One cannot see, that is blind man. Everyone knows it.

Yasomatinandana: Their interpretation is just opposing Krsna. Krsna says, "I am..."

Prabhupada: That's all.

Indian Man (1): They have no opposition.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the main point. That is the main point, Kamsa, to kill Krsna. "Let Krsna come out and I shall kill Him immediately." The Kamsa philosophy. All these rascals, they don't give any importance to Krsna. All this interpretation.

Indian Man (1): Sankaracarya has written the Krsna asṭakam.

Prabhupada: Sankaracarya is not blind man. But those who are rascals, blind, why do they interpret? They should not interpret. [break]

Italian Man (4): ...mentioned Krsna. This is...

Prabhupada: Yes. He is coming from Europe. Jaya. He's also. Never mentioned. The only policy is how to kill Krsna.

Italian Man (4): These important writers who have been read throughout Europe, France and England, who has no importance for the moment, they have never tried to give a (sic:) lifely idea of Krsna, the pastimes and the youthfulness, and the liveliness of this is not given. And they will take... Yes, that's it. Yes.

Prabhupada: Here is a foreign reader. He says.

Indian Man (1): Which book you have read?

Italian Man (4): Well, I have read every book that can be available.

Indian Man (1): Have you read Radhakrishnan on Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: He is first-class impersonalist. He is a first-class blind man. First-class blind man.

Indian Man (1): But still, he appreciates Krsna. He has never told any...

Prabhupada: How can you...

Indian Man (1): Well, I read it, I studied it.

Prabhupada: No, no. After all, he's a brahmana, Hindu brahmana. How he can defy Krsna? That is not possible.

Indian Man (1): On the contrary, he is also a bhakta of Krsna, but he says that after bhakti, devotion...

Indian Man (5): Who?

Indian Man (1): Dr. Radhakrishnan.

Indian Man (5): President of India. [break]

Indian Man (4): Our book is there in London, not Vivekananda.

Prabhupada: Yes. His books are rejected.

Indian Man (1): No, he has written from the different point of view.

Prabhupada: No why, what right? That is the...

Indian Man (1): You are putting your idea. That is a bad decision.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. Why you should put a different point of view? Just like Radhakrishnan says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji: [Bg. 18.65] "It is not to Krsna, the person." Just see, how much rascaldom. Krsna says, "You become My devotee," and he interprets, "It is not to Krsna, the person." Just see.

Indian Man: Krsna says,"Surrender everything." That's all. And they say, "No..."

Prabhupada: Krsna says that "You surrender." He says, "It is not to Krsna." Just see how much rascal he is. And if I say, then people will be angry. If I say, "rascal, rascal," then people will be angry.

Italian Man (4): So you actually mean to say that these people who have been writing from..., taking especially from Bhagavad-gita and some of other Vedic scriptures, do you think that the fact that they didn't mention...? I have been thinking that maybe they have not talking about Krsna, just to say maybe they might have thought "Well, people don't know who is Krsna, and therefore I only say God."

Prabhupada: Why? Krsna is there.

Italian Man (4): Or do you think that there was a purpose in their mind.

Prabhupada: Purpose, yes, not to give importance to Krsna. That is going on.

Italian Man (4): And on themself only.

Indian Man (1): Not self only.

Prabhupada: Yes, that rascaldom is going on. And our society is protesting. Therefore we are enemy of everyone. Because we are protesting against this. "You cannot do this. You cannot do this." As soon as say, "Oh, why you are decrying? He is also incarnation of God." What kinds of God? A rascal, we shall accept incarnation of God? You see? I am not so fool. Krsna says that... What is that? Kamais tais tair hrta-jñanaḥ; yajanti anya-devataḥ;: [Bg. 7.20] "A person who is lost of his intelligence, he worships demigods." And a person worshiping a demigod, he becomes God. Just see. He's a nonsense, nasṭa-buddhayaḥ;, because he is worshiping demigod, and by worshiping demigod he became God. Where is this in the sastra? This rascaldom is going on. First of all, anyone who worships a demigod, he is a rascal. And it is advertised "By worshiping such and such demigod, a rascal has become God." And we have to accept that. We are not so foolish. First of all, he is a rascal, he has no knowledge. And one who has no knowledge and rascal, and he has become God. We have to accept that.

Indian Man (1): When the people do not find any difference between the God and demigod...

Prabhupada: Why? That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. If you do not find any difference between me and my disciple, then you are foolish man. If you say, if you say...

Indian Man (1): In the beginning everybody is foolish. We are born foolish.

Prabhupada: Well, born foolish. That... He has to become intelligent. But when he talks foolishly, he remains foolish.

Indian Man (1): Well, so far he is not enlightened.

Prabhupada: If he talks foolishly, that means he is still foolish. He has not attained any knowledge.

Indian Man (6): But after getting the knowledge, then knowledge means when we completely know the Supreme Personality is Lord Krsna, then he is all right.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Indian Man (6): But those who have got no knowledge about all these things, so they must be worshiping some Devi, Ganesa...

Prabhupada: But why they take the position of a teacher? They should not take the position of a teacher. They should remain foolish, that "I have still to learn."

Indian Man (1): Ah, that is the significance. They should not say that "I am already perfect." That is the sig... They should not claim like that.

Prabhupada: That is our protest, that "You are foolish. Why you are taking the position of a teacher? You are foolish. You are rascal. You don't take the position of a teacher. Then you are a cheater. First of all make your life..." Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, janma sarthaka kari kara paropakara: "First of all make your life successful. Then you become a teacher." Paropakara. You are a fool number one and you are going to make paropakara? Daridra-narayana. (laughter) [break] ...when they take the position of teacher, they not only do harm to themselves but to others. So our protest is that "You are a fool, rascal. You go to hell. Why you induce others to go to hell?"

Indian Man (1): They want some companions. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Why, why, why? This is very dangerous. If I know that "I am blind," why should I ask other blind man, "All right you come behind me. I shall cross you the ocean." Why this cheating? You say that "I am blind man. You are also blind man. So I cannot guide you." That is sincerity. That is sincere. [break] ...very much bewildered all over the world due to this rascal philosophy, that a blind man leading other blind men. So they should be delivered from this gross ignorance. [break] ...say that we have got eyes, but we are being led by Krsna, who has got real eyes. Therefore we are safe.

Indian Man (1): In this world, unless they see the particular person.

Prabhupada: They cannot see. He is blind, how he can see?

Indian Man (1): It is very difficult to believe he is God...

Prabhupada: No, no, believe or don't believe. That is another thing.

Indian Man (1): So we must have spiritual eyes or something which is beyond our physical body. And so how why we are drowsing ourself and why we are just galloping in a different way? Because everybody says it is beyond...

Prabhupada: No. Suppose you are blind. So you require the help of a man who has got eyes. So unless you are sure that "This man has got eyes," why should you take care of him? That is another ignorance. If I know the man who proposes to lead me, he is also blind, why shall I take his help?

Indian Man (1): But if he says, "I am also blind," but just trying to find out the way...

Prabhupada: Yes, so find out the right way. Find out a man who has got the eyes.

Indian Man (1): But right, everything is right...

Prabhupada: No, no, "Everything is right," that is your misfortune. You do not know. Because we know the right man is Krsna. Everyone knows. But your misfortune. You do not accept Krsna. You accept something else.

Indian Man (1): No, accepting Krsna is..., no doubt about it.

Prabhupada: Then accept Krsna. Everyone knows.

Indian Man (1): But generally, people, they don't go blindly. That is what the difficulty is. They want open their eyes, they want to have opened their mind, and still, they wanted to be Krsna conscious.

Prabhupada: No, no, if there is doubt, if there is doubt, why shall I accept a person who is doubtful? Why not accept a person who is without doubt? Krsna is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all acaryas. All acaryas. So why not accept Krsna? Why imitation Krsna? This Krsna, that Krsna, dini-Krsna. That is our protest. You accept Krsna and be led by Him. The path is clear. [break] ...simply advertising that "You are searching after some leader. Take this leader, Krsna." This is Krsna consciousness movement. "We have taken. You also take." We don't say anybody else, no. We are fools. We do not know if there is anybody. So we are fools. Let us remain like a fool like that and follow Krsna. That's all. This is Krsna consciousness movement. We don't say that "I have got eyes, I have got full knowledge." No, we don't say that. Krsna says. That's all. This is our version. We request that "You take Krsna. You will be benefited." And actually it is being done. We don't present a false person. We present the real person, Krsna. Now, if you are misfortunate, you cannot take, that is your business. That is your business.

Indian Man (1): It is open, anybody can take.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...qualification is there. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You speak only Krsna's words. He doesn't say, "Your words, your interpretation." This is nonsense. Krsna's words. What Krsna has said, just speak it. Then you become spiritual master.

amara ajñaya guru haña tara' ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

And because you have become guru, you manufacture some ways and means, that is rascaldom. If you are guru, then you have to speak what Krsna has said. That is guru. A guru does not manufacture anything. He is not guru. [break] ...it is. People are eager to give service to the fellow man, and not to the animals. How much blind they are. Just see. Animals have to be sent to the slaughterhouse, and fellow man should be given help. This is daridra-narayana seva. And what this poor animal-narayana has done? Because poor fund of knowledge. And here it is said that both the animals and the people should be taken care of. Who is taking care of the animals? Hundreds and thousands of animals are being slaughtered daily. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Who is taking care of them? How much short-sighted they are. [break]

Giriraja: (reading) "...should see to the peace and comfort of his fellow man and the animals. The development of religious principles, economic development, and sense gratification can then be achieved without difficulty."

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...stress on Krsna. And they have written so many commentaries on the Bhagavad-gita. And this is the first time, we have given.

Indian Man (1): Yes, very good. [break]

Prabhupada: ...spoken. If somebody writes an ordinary book, one studies his life, his characters and everything, the authors. And these rascal will not study Krsna. And they will comment upon Krsna. Just see. Nobody is interested about the life of Krsna. [break] ...the author, there is short sketch of life. But nobody writes Krsna's life. You see? Nobody writes.

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada writes.

Indian Man (1): The same thing happens with so many other books also because it is not known properly to proper persons...

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Why do they touch of writing books? They are foolish people. Why they should attempt to write books and mislead others? That is our protest. [break] ...Krsna's life in two big, big volumes.

Indian Man (1): But these volumes are very short, sir.

Prabhupada: Yes, no, the lowest. But they have not written even a page about Krsna's life. And writing comments on Bhagavad-gita. Just see how much rascal they are. Not even a page. Rather, they deny, "There was no Krsna." Just see how much foolish they are, and they are writing comments on Bhagavad-gita. That is our regret, that how these rascals dare to write on Bhagavad-gita? [break]

Giriraja: "...when Vasudeva was born..." [break]

Prabhupada: ...said, "When there is danger, it is a great opportunity for remembering God." Tat te 'nukampam susamiksamanaḥ; [SB 10.14.8].

Indian Man (1): And Kunti.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kunti said, "I shall pray for the dangerous position so that You could remain with us." [break]

Giriraja: ...open the snake in the original Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna is the kala-sarpa, kala. The time is Krsna, kala. Therefore you can compare with snake. Mrtyuḥ; sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34]. Kala means death. So snake, meeting a snake means death. So therefore He can be called a snake.

Giriraja: "When Putana was taking baby Krsna on her lap, both Yasoda and Rohini were present." [break]

Prabhupada: Krsna shows by example.

Devotee: Would that be a young cow or a mother cow?

Prabhupada: Any cow.

Giriraja: "The child was completely washed with the urine of the cow and the dust created by the hooves of the cows was thrown all over His body." [break]

Prabhupada: ...if they kill Krsna, then all these questions does not come. You see? Because they want to kill the cows. And if he worships Krsna as the Supreme, then he has to accept these principles. Therefore they want to kill Krsna.

Devotee: So they can kill the cows.

Giriraja: "The transcendental body of Krsna did not require any protection, but to instruct us on the importance of the cow, the Lord was smeared over with cow dung and washed with the urine of the cow, sprinkled with the dust raised by the walking of the cow." [break]

Prabhupada: ...otherwise, yes. We shall come

Satsvarupa: Ten to six.

Prabhupada: No. Why ten to six? At least fifteen to six.

Italian Man (1): How long you both will be here. I have to go today. [break]

Prabhupada: The whole Sama-veda is music. Gayanti yana-samagaḥ;. Sama-veda is full of music. The musical sounds, sa re ga ma pa da, this is from Sama-veda. Yes.

Italian Man (1): Is it possible to obtain technical materials of theorems, the way of combining notes to make music for Hare Krsna and...

Prabhupada: These are the symbolic, sa re ga ma, sarad rsi garbha, like that. Different sounds. (end)