Prabhupada: ...impersonalist or personalist. Who is better? That is explained, that personalists are better posted than the impersonalists. Gatir duḥ;k..., avyakta hi gatir duḥ;kham dehavadbhir avapyate.

Mr. Sar: Yes.

Prabhupada: They simply suffer, that's all. It is already explained. The impersonalists, they cannot concentrate their mind upon the Supreme, and simply hodgepodge. Therefore they suffer.

Mr. Sar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Mayavadis, they suffer only. Tesam klesala eva sisyate. In Bhagavata it is explained, "Their gain is only suffering." That's all.

Mr. Sar: That's why they...

Prabhupada: Huh? Bhaktim udasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye.

Mr. Sar: Ah, kevala-bodha.

Prabhupada: Simply trying to know, know, know.

Mr. Sar: Know.

Prabhupada: You see? So, tesam klesala eva sisyate: "Their gain is simply their trying for, that labor." Nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam: "It is exactly like one is beating the husk."

Mr. Sar: Yes, and not getting that thing.

Prabhupada: There is no rice...

Mr. Sar: No rice even.

Prabhupada: Simply "gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad."

Mr. Sar: "Gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad, gad."

Prabhupada: That's all. Tesam klesala eva sisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. So these impersonalists, they are trying to approach the Absolute Truth, but the method is not very good.

Mr. Sar: (mumbles verse) ...avyaktam.

Prabhupada: Hm. No, Krsna says...

Mr. Sar: ...tesam paryupa...

Prabhupada: Krsna says that, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].

Mr. Sar: Ah. Yavan yas casmi...

Prabhupada: He never says that "By mental speculation, one can understand." He never says.

Mr. Sar: He's beyond the reach of the mind.

Prabhupada: Yes. Manusyanam sahasresu... (Hindi)

manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin mam vetti tattvataḥ;
[Bg. 7.3]

So to know God, it is not very easy job. And in the Vedas also, it is stated, nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena. So this process is not good.

Mr. Sar: Yam evaisa vrnute tam eva vivrnute tanum svam.

Prabhupada: Hm. Yes. Tanu. Tanu means form. Tanu means form.

Mr. Sar: That is, He shows His grace, isn't it? That means isn't it, whom He selects, whom the Lord selects?

Prabhupada: Yes. And in the Bhagavad-gita also, the Lord says that "This, My form, is not understood by common men."

Mr. Sar: Divyam dadami te caksuḥ;.

Dr. Patel: Mama maya duratyaya, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg. 7.14].

Prabhupada: But actually, brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. So gradual process, go to the Absolute Truth—Brahman, Paramatma, and last is Bhagavan. The Bhagavan realization is the real realization, not Brahman, not... This is partial. (looking at something on beach) It is already dead.

Dr. Patel: No, it may be even living.

Prabhupada: Why even it is dead while it is ferocious?

Mr. Sar: Rajju-sarpa-nyaya, huh? That is bhranti-maya.

Prabhupada: No, no. There are certain things which are simply by form is dangerous. (greets some other men:) Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Here is another.

Prabhupada: This is water snake? They have no poison.

Dr. Patel: Evam satata-yukta ye bhaktas tvam paryupasate, ye capy aksaram avyaktam... [break]

Prabhupada: Mayy asakta-manaḥ; partha yogam yuñjan mad-asrayaḥ;. This is the stress. Mayy asakta. "Here I am present. Why you should contemplate on imperson?" But the foolish people will not understand this. Muḍha. Na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante [Bg. 7.15]. He is canvassing, "Here I am," but they will not surrender. They are searching out God somewhere else. "Here I am." "No, no, no. You are not." Muḍhas.

Mr. Sar: Muḍhas, yes.

Dr. Patel: Ye tu aksaram anirdesyam...

Mr. Sar: ...avyaktam paryupasate. (laughing)

Prabhupada: Muḍha, sab muḍha.

Dr. Patel: They are all muḍhas. Let us complete it now. Kuṭastham acalam dhruvam. [break]

Prabhupada: But where is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;? He is engaged in "family hite rataḥ;."

Dr. Patel: If he is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;...

Prabhupada: Then that is another thing. That is another thing. But one who is "family hite rataḥ;," "country hite rataḥ;," "community hite rataḥ;," how he can do?

Dr. Patel: So in this Bhagavan has said, sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;.

Prabhupada: But sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Now, these people, they are hite rataḥ; of limited circle, that's all.

Mr. Sar: Ohh. That is why their... This path is not good for mankind.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, one must accept sannyasa at a certain stage.

Mr. Sar:

kleso 'dhikataras tesam
avyaktasakta-cetasam
avyakta hi gatir duḥ;kham
dehavadbhir avapyate
[Bg. 12.5]

Dr. Patel: Ye tu sarvani karmani mayi sannyasya mat-paraḥ;. Now, you have all your...

Prabhupada: Sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;, that, it is very difficult. Because even Mahatma Gandhi, such a great person, he said, "Englishman, you go away." Just see. Who can be better than Mahatma Gandhi?

Dr. Patel: And he must have life like Bharata.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Dr. Patel: Jaḍa Bharata.

Prabhupada: Is there possibility? He was so sacrificeful, but still, he was not sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Whole struggle was: "Englishman, you get out."

Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ; will be like Jaḍa Bharata.

Prabhupada: No, no. Sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ; means who is devotee of Krsna. He is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;.

Dr. Patel: Because Krsna's representative.

Prabhupada: He is the root. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ; [Bg. 10.8]. The root, if you water the root, then sarva-bhuta hite rataḥ;, the water will go to the branches, to the twigs, to the leaves, to the flowers. He is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. They do not know the way how to become sarva-bhuta-hite. And because... Just see the example. I am not becoming proud, but because I have got little taste for it, therefore I am preaching all over the world. I don't say I am perfect. I have got little taste of krsna-bhakti. So I have no distinction that "This is Indian. This is American. This is African." Everyone, I am giving this hari-nama. This is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;, no distinction. We are trying to give protection the the cows, to animals, to the trees. This is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Unless one is... Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad... If one is not devoted to Krsna, he cannot become sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Kleso 'dhikataras tesam [Bg. 12.5]. Simply they will suffer, that's all.

Mr. Sar: Kleso 'dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam.

Prabhupada: Avyakta. This avyakta... They do not find where is the point where sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Just like one who knows the electric button, he push. He does not know that. Muḍha.

Dr. Patel: You have to work the main switch.

Prabhupada: Yes! That is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. You must know how to do it.

Dr. Patel and Mr. Sar:

ye tu sarvani karmani
mayi sannyasya mat-paraḥ;
ananyenaiva yogena
mam dhyayanta upasate

tesam aham samuddharta
mrtyu-samsara-sagarat
bhavami na cirat partha
mayy avesita-cetasam
[Bg. 12.7]

[break]

Prabhupada: ...early in the morning have mangala-aratrika, then prasada. Now, walk, also talking. We are not wasting time. We are not wasting time. Even if you say, "Why you are walking?" We are not walking for nothing. We are talking. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drḍha-vrataḥ; [Bg. 9.14]. Satatam kirtayantaḥ;. So walking, talking.

Dr. Patel: Mat-karmabhiḥ; karmani siddhim... [break]

Prabhupada: Sarva-karma-tyaga. Where is Giriraja? These boys collecting not less than thirty thousand per month, but not a single farthing for him. This is sarva-karma-phala. Is there any man, businessman?

Mr. Sar: Yes, yes. He stays in utter poverty.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-karma-phala-tyagam eva.

Prabhupada: He does not care for his body even.

Mr. Sar: Yes, he does not care.

Prabhupada: I forced him to go to U.S.A. and get...

Dr. Patel: I invited him to stay in my house, but he said that he won't come.

Prabhupada: No, no, he is not interested for his person.

Dr. Patel: We have invite him. When he is ill, he may stay with me. We may have a little sat-sanga.

Prabhupada: But he is sarva-bhuta-hite rataḥ;. Why he should be concentrated one?

Mr. Sar: Advesṭa sarva-bhutanam.

Prabhupada: Ah, advesṭa. It is not, "I am Hindu. Why shall I preach amongst the Christian?" The dvesṭa.

Dr. Patel: Advesṭa sarva-bhutanam.

Prabhupada: But one has to become advesṭa. This is advesṭa.

Dr. Patel: Maitraḥ; karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankaraḥ; sama-duḥ;kha-sukhaḥ; ksami [Bg. 12.13].

Prabhupada: Now, some of these Mayavadi sannyasis accuse me that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is spoiling our Hindu religion." Means dvesṭa. They do not like Christians. They do not like Mohammedans. But I am accepting Mohammedans, Christian, any damn rascal: "Come on. Chant Hare Krsna."

Mr. Sar: And be a brahmana.

Prabhupada: This is advesṭa. [break] ...envious of Christian.

Dr. Patel: Nirmamo nirahankaraḥ; sama-duḥ;kha-sukhaḥ;...

Prabhupada: Why you should be?

Dr. Patel: ...santusṭaḥ; satatam yogi yatatma drḍha-niscayaḥ;, mayy-arpita-mano-buddhir [Bg. 8.7].

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs)

Mr. Sar: Ye... (Hindi)

Prabhupada: We cannot change. Therefore yesterday I said, "Why shall I go to...?"

Dr. Patel and Mr. Sar: Yasman nodvijate loko lokan nodvijate ca yaḥ;, harsamarsa-bhayodvegair.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You are firing us. (laughs)

Prabhupada: For your good. For your good. Even if I fire you, for your good.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) I was able to come to this point. That is why I asked them to arrange for this meeting. [break]

Prabhupada: ...father fires son, it is not envious. Advesṭa, he... That is advesṭa.

Dr. Patel: Anapeksaḥ; sucir daksa.

Prabhupada: Anapeksaḥ;, just see. When I went to Europe, America, I went with forty rupees. The Sumati Morarji gave me a ticket, and I had only forty rupees. That forty rupees could not be spent there. Then, when I was getting down, I asked the captain, "Captain Pandia," that "I have not a single dollar with me. So you purchase one set of my books." "So what is... Swami, what is your price?" "Sixteen dollar." He paid me twenty dollars. With that twenty dollars, I dropped.

Mr. Sar: This is anapeksaḥ;.

Dr. Patel: Anapeksaḥ; sucir daksa.

Prabhupada: Now I think we have got money.

Dr. Patel: Two million dollars.

Prabhupada: (laughs) So that is not a problem. That is not a problem because I knew that Krsna is there.

Dr. Patel:

anapeksaḥ; sucir daksa
udasino gata-vyathaḥ;
sarvarambha-parityagi
yo mad-bhaktaḥ; sa me priyaḥ;

Yo na... [break] ...na kanksati na... na kanksati na socati, subhasubha-parityagi yo mad-bhaktaḥ; sa me priyaḥ;.

Prabhupada: Yes, subhasubha. When I was in Boston, I was thinking that "I have come here. How they will receive me? As soon as I'll say that 'No meat-eating, no illicit sex, and no gambling, and no intoxication,' immediately they will say, 'Please go home, don't preach here.' All right." So for one year there was no success, you see? And I was going to the shipping company: "When your next ship is coming to return back?" So the manager was telling, "Swamiji, you are always inquiring, but you never go." (all laugh) I said, "Yes, when I am too much frustrated, I come to here to ask you. Then again I go back: 'Let me see two months more.' " It was going like that. Nobody was there with me.

Dr. Patel:

tulya-ninda-stutir mauni
santusṭo yena kenacit
aniketaḥ; sthira-matir
bhaktiman me priyo naraḥ;

Prabhupada: (laughing) Aniketaḥ;, automatically aniketaḥ;. There was no place, no place to live. No money.

Dr. Patel: This is the culmination of a sannyasi.

Mr. Sar: One who has no place, he lives everywhere.

Prabhupada: Sannyasa means aniketaḥ;. Now we have got hundred temples. We have got hundred temples. But Krsna does not allow me to stay eight days, more than.

Dr. Patel: But how long you going to stay here? You have promised me to stay long, eh?

Prabhupada: But if Krsna allows...

Mr. Sar: I will always pray to Krsna.

Prabhupada: I am dependent on Krsna. If He allows. Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Because we can't come to America to keep your company.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Here is a Pacific Ocean. [break] Sometimes I think "When I was simply depending on Krsna, those days... Now I have to depend on so many disciples." (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Through Krsna the disciples are the sannyasis.

Prabhupada: (laughing) They are good disciples. They are bringing everything. I am simply ordering. Still, I think, "That was better, to depend on..."

Dr. Patel: What is Mayavada, Mayavada? This, we do not understand anything. maya is a fact because it is the power of God, and you have got to work with it. So we are all of us are vadis. Don't talk all these thing now Swamiji, I am going to fire him.

Prabhupada: No, why you have become angry?

Dr. Patel: No, I don't become angry, I become violent, not angry.

Mr. Sar: Mayavadi's name is speaker.

Prabhupada: That means he is Mayavadi.

Dr. Patel: Maya is a fact of life.

Prabhupada: He is becoming angry; that means he is Mayavada.

Dr. Patel: Maya is a fact of life... (end)