Room Conversation
Bombay
18 Sep

Prabhupada: Yasyatma-buddhiŠł•; kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhiŠł•; kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhiŠł•;. You know Sanskrit. You know Sanskrit?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada:

yasyatma-buddhiŠł•; kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhiŠł•; kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhiŠł•;
yat-tirtha-buddhiŠł•; salile na karhicij
janesv abhij√Īesu sa eva go-karaŠł•;
[SB 10.84.13]

Go-kharaŠł•;. Go means cow, and kharaŠł•; means ass. Those who are living life, the bodily concept of life, they're simply go-kharaŠł•;, just like cows and asses. So, at the present moment, it is a civilization of go-kharaŠł•;. They may be proud, advanced, civilized man, but the sastra says that "You are all asses and cows." And we speak on the basis of sastra. Don't be angry upon... We see all the cows and asses. [break]

asocyan anvasocas tvam
praj√Īa-vadams ca bhasase
gatasun agatasums ca
nanusocanti panŠłćitaŠł•;
[Bg. 2.11]

"You are talking like a very nice, learned scholar, but no learned man talks like this." That means "You are a fool." (laughter) He's friend, so He's talking very mildly that "You are, you are trying to talk like a learned scholar, but actually no learned scholar speaks like this." That means, "You are a fool."

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]

Tatha dehantara-praptiŠł•;. Nobody knows. Dehantara-praptiŠł•;, from one body to another, we are doing that, every moment, but these rascals, they do not know. I was a child, I was a boy. Where is that body? It is gone. It is a fact. I am in a different body. Dehantara-praptiŠł•;. Still, they won't believe that there is life after death. Dehantara-praptiŠł•; we are experiencing in this life. But they won't believe that after this deha, there is another deha. That they won't believe, such dull-headed. (Hindi) Are they dull-headed or (are) they intelligent scholar and scientist? What is your opinion? What is your opinion? You are practical man. [break] That is later on, so 'ham. First of all, understand what you are aham, then so 'ham. You do not know what is aham. So these rascals, they do not know aham, and they're speaking, so 'ham. [break] When you understand yourself, then you understand God also. Then you'll understand that God and yourself are of the same ingredient, so 'ham. Just like if I say, so 'ham. "I am just like Indira Gandhi." Indira Gandhi is the big personality. So, "I am as good as Indira Gandhi." So this is applicable in this sense, that Indira Gandhi is Indian. I am also Indian. Indira Gandhi is a human being. I am also a human being. In this way, go on, analytical study. You'll find so many things, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. But still, you are not Indira Gandhi. So so 'ham means to understand that I am not this matter. I am the spirit soul, as good as the Supreme Lord. But that does not mean I am Supreme Lord, or as good as Supreme Lord. Qualitatively, I am one, not quantitatively. Just like a drop of water from the sea. (aside:) You can come here. [break] All the chemicals in the drop of the sea water, you'll find in the sea also. But still, the drop of water is not equal to the sea. So so 'ham means qualitatively one with God, the Supreme. That not means that "I am the Supreme Lord." That is nonsense.

Guest (1): Aham sa brahma.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): Aham sa brahma.

Prabhupada: Yes, Brahman, the spirit soul is Brahman. Aham sa brahma. Krsna is param brahma. Param dhama pavitram, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Pavitram paramam bhavan. The param brahma. Krsna is called param brahma, and we are part and parcel of Krsna. Therefore we are Brahman. The drop of water and the vast water. So Krsna is the Supreme, Supreme Person, and we are also persons, but not Supreme Person. Do you think you are Supreme Persons? Anybody? So anyone thinks that "I am Supreme Person," he is a crazy fellow, madman. He can say: "I am person. Krsna is a person. I am also person." That is all right. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (KaŠĻ≠ha Upanisad 2.2.13). That is Vedic version. [break] Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adaŠł•; [Brs. 1.2.234].

Guest (1): There are internal senses also.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): There are counterparts of senses also?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like your coat and shirt. The coat has got hand. But that is not hand. Real hand is within the coat. So actually the coat has no hands. So where is the question of coat having senses? Similarly, this material body is a lump of matter. Just like the dolls. The dolls are prepared with grass, hands and legs, and then it is plastered, and it becomes a nice doll. Similarly, we have got hands and legs, and this material is plaster. Therefore when the real hands and legs go away, they are no more hands and legs. They are simply lump of matter. Therefore, anyone thinks that this body, "I am," he's a fool. If you think that you are the coat, you are the shirt, then you are a fool.

Guest (1): Kesava, Krsna, everything, one, every senses.

Prabhupada: Krsna is all spirit.

Guest (1): His senses are...?

Prabhupada: Everything. He has no difference between the body and the soul. He's Supreme Soul, simply Supreme Soul.

Guest (1): He has no these external senses?

Prabhupada: No, no, no. He has no external, internal. We are conditioned souls. We have got external, internal. Avajananti mam muŠłćha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because people cannot understand it, they think that "Krsna is like us."

Guest (1): He's not person then realistically.

Prabhupada: He's person. Not like you person.

Guest (1): A different.

Prabhupada: That you are always in want. Not like that. He's Supreme, full of all opulences. He's person, but not a person like us. The same example: Indira Gandhi is a person. I am also person. But not a person like me. IsvaraŠł•; paramaŠł•; krsnaŠł•; sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaŠł•; [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means person. He is sac-cid-ananda. We are not ananda. This body is not sat.

Guest (1): Not cit also, not full cit.

Prabhupada: Neither cit, nor ananda. So how you can be equal with Krsna? You have got a different birth, you can have a... You have already, but it is plastered with matter. If you become without plaster, then you become as good as Krsna, not in quantity, but in quality. Quality, you are already. But you have been covered with these dirty things.

Guest (1): Maya.

Prabhupada: So when these dirty things are washed, then you become as Krsna as you in spirit sense. So at the present moment, we are with... Covered means with upadhi. Upadhi. Just like your naked body and this body with shirt and coat. When you take away the shirt and coat, you become original body. Similarly, when you stop accepting this plastering process of body, material body, in different shapes, then you become mukta.

sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena hrsikesa-
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]

When you begin serving Krsna in your original spiritual body, that is called bhakti. [break] ...educated person. If you like you can learn all the things. You read our books. You have got our books?

Guest (1): A few books I have got. Krsna, I have got it.

Prabhupada: So you are member?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Then... [break] ...We have not very many followers because we disagree with all rascals. We are not rascal. [break] Murkhayopadeso hi prakopaya na santaya (?). Murkha upadesa... (Hindi) If you give some lessons to the rascal, he becomes angry. PayaŠł•;-panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. If you ask a serpent, "Sir, you don't bite anyone, you take your here, milk, (indistinct)," the result will be he'll increase his venomous poison, and one day‚ÄĒ"Phansss." (Sound imitating biting) You know the story? The kuta..., (?) the wood-cutter and the snake. He found a snake... Snake, if it is not killed, then if you simply beat and becomes dead, again he revives life. You know that?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: By air. So somebody killed, but he did not cut or burn. So he again, into life. So a wood-cutter, what is called? Who cuts trees and wood? He felt sympathetic. He took away the snake and kept at home and gave him some milk. So one day, when he was strong. (makes hissing sound) So he thought, "Oh, I gave you life, I gave you milk, and now you are trying to attack me?" He cut into pieces. Therefore in the sastra it is said, modeta sadhur api vrscika-sarpa-hatya [SB 7.9.14]. When Prahlada Maharaja's father was killed by Hiranya, I mean to say, Nrsimhadeva, Prahlada Maharaja prayed, "Sir, You reduce Your anger now. Nobody is displeased with You because my father was just like a scorpion and snake, and when a scorpion and snake is killed, nobody's unhappy. So nobody is unhappy. Your action is not decried by anyone. Please now become in Your sense." So in the whole living entities, kingdom of living entities, the vrscika, vrscika and sarpa...

Guest (1): Scorpion.

Prabhupada: They are very dangerous. So if vrscika and sarpa is killed, nobody's unhappy. [break] ...in Canakya PanŠłćita, sarpaŠł•; kruraŠł•; khalaŠł•; kruraŠł•;, sarpat krurataraŠł•; khalaŠł•;. A jealous, envious man, he's also crooked, and the snake, it is also crooked. But the man practiced to jealousy is more dangerous than the snake. Why? "He's human being. He's still more dangerous?" "Yes." "Why?" Mantrausadhi-vasaŠł•; sarpaŠł•;. You can bring under control the snake by mantra and drugs. KhalaŠł•; kena nivaryate. And the jealous man cannot be subdued. Therefore he's more dangerous than the snake.

Guest (2): Than the snake. [break]

Prabhupada: ...here is a very nice, educated man. He's very nice. But we say, "No. Because he has no Krsna consciousness, he's as dangerous as if he is ordinary man." We don't give any credit. [break]

Acyutananda: Which is more important, to go back to Godhead or spread Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: Well, one who is preaching Krsna consciousness, he's already back to Godhead. [break] ...iha yasya harer dasye karmana manasa gira. Preacher means he has engaged his body, his mind, his speeches only to glorify the Lord. That is preacher. So anybody who's engaged that business, he's jivan-muktaŠł•; sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this life. [break] ...even if he's liberated. So why he should seek for liberation? He's already liberated. He's already back to Godhead. He's already with Krsna. Krsna is talking with him. Buddhi-yogam dadami... One who is actually preacher, engaged in Krsna's glorification, service, he's already in VaikunŠĻ≠ha. That is stated in Bhagavata. Etad isanam... It's just like Krsna. If He comes within this material world, does it mean that he's in the material world? Similarly, Krsna's pure devotee, he's not in the material world. In the spiritual world.

Guest (1): He gets the body? Does he get the body?

Prabhupada: Therefore it's said, jivan-mukta. Although he is within this body, still he is mukta. Just like... Example is you take a rod, put into the fire, by association of fire, it becomes red hot. At that time, it is fire, not rod. Similarly, if one is fully Krsna conscious, he has no other business than to glorify Krsna, he's already in the VaikunŠĻ≠ha. Why should he...? Therefore Krsna-bhakta doesn't require any mukti. MuktiŠł•; svayam mukulita√Ījali sevate 'sman. Mukti's serving him. [break] ...Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, mama janmani janmani. Birth after birth. But when you go back to home, back to Godhead, there is no birth. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. You don't return. But here Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "Birth after birth." So he's already mukta, he's already in the VaikunŠĻ≠ha. Is that clear? Yes. Therefore Krsna-bhakta is niskama. He has no any desire. Because he's already fulfilled with all desires. He's, he's in the service of the Lord.

Acyutananda: Well, like sometimes the devotees are preaching, but they get feelings of getting entangled, so they want to...

Prabhupada: That means it is not yet perfect preacher. He requires perfection.

Acyutananda: So they argue with me or some other...

Prabhupada: It is not the question of arguing.

Acyutananda: No, they say, "Well, I want to fix myself up," and we want them to preach.

Prabhupada: Preaching is our only business, preaching. Whatever we do, it is aimed at preaching. Namaskara. [break] That is our business. Whatever we are doing, it is for preaching. [break] In, in the practice, or in the engagement of preaching, their position is better than those who are worshiping the Lord in a secluded place, bhajananandi.

Acyutananda: What about those who are preaching, but imperfectly, and those who are...?

Prabhupada: Even it is imperfect...

Acyutananda: It's better than just sitting.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Krsna will help us. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam, buddhi-yogam dadami tam [Bg. 10.10]. How he can be imperfect? Krsna will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Krsna is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Krsna. Therefore he's not imperfect.

Guest (1): Purnam adaŠł•; purnam idam [Isopanisad, Invocation].

Prabhupada: Yes. He's associating with Krsna. And unless one is confidential devotee of Krsna, Krsna does not speak with him. But when he becomes perfect, confidential servitor, Krsna speaks with him, "Do like this, do like that," and he'll do that. And therefore in his action, you won't find any fault. [break] If somebody perfect instructs him, "Do like this," then my action is not imperfect. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If I say, "Yes, you give up everything. Just surrender to Krsna," then I am perfect. And if I say, "So 'ham. I am Krsna," then you are imperfect. Is that...? [break] "...the same. I am the Lord. I am the Supreme." They're all imperfect. Vimukta-maninaŠł•;. They have been described as rascals. They are strongly thinking that they are liberated. They're rascals. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayaŠł•; [SB 10.2.32]. They are talking like nonsense because their intelligence is not..., it is purified. He's therefore wrongly thinking that "I am the Supreme Lord. I am moving the sun." These rascals, they meditate, "I am moving the sun, I am moving the moon. I am this, I am that." This is their meditation. So 'ham. So they are rascals. And how you can become the Supreme? As soon as you have got a toothache, you have to go to the doctor. And he was thinking he was supreme, nonsense. Rascal. [break] ...bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. These are Mayavadis, those who are after, "I am the Supreme." They are Mayavadis. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "Anyone who hears the philosophy of Mayavada, he is doomed. He is gone." [break] ...teaching, "Why you are seeking after God?" Just like Vivekananda taught, "Oh, why you are seeking after God? Don't you see so many gods are on the street? They are hungry. They are lame. They are daridra-narayana. Why don't you worship them?" This is Mayavadi. So if we take Vivekananda's version, and be engaged in the service of the daridra-narayana, then I am misled. [break] ...preaching this daridra-narayana-seva for hundreds of years, at least one hundred years, but still, there are daridras. Even in the city like Bombay, still. Fifty years ago, I came. I saw there are the residents of the footpath, having a small... Eh?

Guest (1): The pipe.

Prabhupada: And still I find. When the rice is selling at eight rupees kilo, and when the rice was selling three rupees a mound, at that time also they were on the footpath, resident, and now also.

Guest (2): Now also.

Prabhupada: Now also. So how you can stop this?

Guest (1): It is God's desire.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is nature's arrangement. And those who are rich... There are richer section when the rice was selling at three rupees per mound, and the richer section is still there when rice is selling, nine rupees a kilo. So they have no eyes because less intelligent. They cannot make equal. PrakrteŠł•; kriyamanani gunaiŠł•; karmani sarvasaŠł•; [Bg. 3.27]. Prakrti, in the prakrti there are three modes of material nature. They will be manifested. It is not possible to make everyone of the same standard, the standard must be different. So they are simply spoiling their time to make the whole society on the same status. The communists are trying, the others are trying. That is not possible. So one should not be disturbed with all these superficial low and high places. Therefore Krsna says,

yam hi na vyathayanty ete
purusam purusarsabha
sama-duŠł•;kha-sukham dhiram
so 'mrtatvaya kalpate

One is not disturbed with this outwards happiness and distress, he's eligible to become immortal. SaŠł•; amrtatvaya. How? (Hindi) Yam hi... [break] ...amrta, eternal. And that is perfection. And that is going back to home, back to Godhead. But they do not know what is the aim of life. Still, they are leaders. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaŠł•; [SB 7.5.31], leaders are blind, and they're leading blind men. Therefore there is always disaster, confusion.

Guest (1): The aim of life is Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes. Aim is go back to Godhead, back to home. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. That is our aim. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita. Yes. [break]

Guest (3) (Indian man): We have a company for interior decorating.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (3): We have a company for interior decorating.

Prabhupada: India decorating?

Guest (3): Interior decorating.

Prabhupada: Interior, oh.

Guest (2): And... [break] ...and become one now.

Prabhupada: You are always. But you forgot. That is our position.

Guest (2): No, I believe I was respecting all religions, all gods, but now I think I lay more emphasis on Krsna.

Prabhupada: How can be all Gods then? That is practical. If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God? If... Do you think everyone is president, everyone is Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi is one. The Prime Minister cannot be many. It is a common sense. How everyone can be God? This is nonsense. Anyone thinks that there are many gods, he does not know what is God. Aiye. God is one. Ekam brahma dvitiyam nasti. Therefore there is no education what is God. Krsna says in the Bhagava... MattaŠł•; parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "Nobody else superior than Me." That is God. Asama-urdhva. God is described in the Bhagavad-gita as asama-urdhva. You can come this side? Let them come forward. You sit down... [break] ...equal to God. And nobody can be greater than God. That is "God is great." If somebody becomes equal to you, how you can be great? Or if somebody is higher than you, then how you can be great? So there is no equal to God, nor greater than Him. That is God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: mattaŠł•; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. [break] "...anyone greater than Me." That is God. There are so many Gods, false gods, nowadays. Can anyone say that "Nobody is greater than me"? All these rascal Gods, can he say? Can anyone say? Immediately... He feels some sickness. Immediately he has to call greater God, physician. And he's claiming, "I am God." We don't want such kind of God, manufactured God. We want real God. When we see nobody is greater than Him, that is God. [break] ...We accept so many pseudo, pretender as God. But we do not know how to test him, whether he is greater than everyone? Whether nobody is greater than him? Then he's God. Can you find out any, so many gods, who has no greater than him, or equal to him? You are claiming You are God, I am also claiming, God. Then we are equal. Then how you can be God or how I can be God? We are equals. As soon as you find there are equals, or as soon as find there is greater, then you are not God. God‚ÄĒthe great. He must be greater than everyone. Therefore sastra has concluded, isvara, God; parama, the Supreme; Krsna. IsvaraŠł•; paramaŠł•; krsnaŠł•; [Bs. 5.1]. And why? Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaŠł•; [Bs. 5.1]. His body is sat, cit, sac-cid-ananda. Now you test. Your body's not sac-cid-ananda. Sat means eternal, cit means full of knowledge, ananda means full of bliss. Is, is my body sac-cid-ananda, this body? No. It is not eternal. It is full of ignorance. It is full of miseries. Then how it can be God? So God, there cannot be many Gods. Many gods, that is not many, that is one. Just like you have got millions of photographs. That does not mean you are million. You are one. But you have expanded millions. Just like the sun is found in every pot. In millions of pot, you keep. And the sun is reflected. Does it mean the sun has become million? No. The sun is one. Similarly...

Guest (3): Reflections.

Prabhupada: Reflections. These are examples. Similarly, isvaraŠł•; sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisŠĻ≠hati [Bg. 18.61]. God is everyone's heart. That does not mean God is many. He's one. But He has got such inconceivable power that that oneness can be distributed into millions. Advaya. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Although God expands Himself in many forms, still, He's advaita, one. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. He's the original person; still, always fresh, young. Nava-yauvanam ca. Therefore Krsna, you'll find always fresh. That picture of Krsna, you see. Nava-yauvanam ca. Just a fresh, young man. In the Bhagavad-gita, you see. Krsna is driving. He's fresh, young man. But Arjuna has got moustaches.

Guest (3): People who are not aware of Krsna, and are living...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): ...and it may take time for your people to educate them, till then they are not aware they are accepting somebody.

Prabhupada: Then they are cats and dogs. They are doing something also.

Guest (3): No, but...

Prabhupada: No, no. Cats and dogs, they are doing some business.

Guest (3): What percentage of people today know about Krsna?

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That we do not know. But anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is, more or less, like cats and dogs. Maybe bigger dog, bigger cat. Just like amongst the dogs, there are different varieties also. So similarly he belongs to that dog, cat class.

Guest (2): Now if he is not got, then what shall he do to become aware?

Prabhupada: No, everyone gets opportunity. But he'll not take the opportunity.

Guest (3): In this country, yes, everybody has got opportunity.

Prabhupada: Not... Every country, every, all over the world. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. The opportunity's open for everyone, but he'll not do it. He'll say, "Why shall I surrender to Krsna?"

Indian Woman: But, Guru Maharaja, if one has some original faith in Jesus Christ or Muhammad, would he...? They think they're sons of God or a messenger of God.

Prabhupada: No, Jesus Christ says "I am son of God." He never says, "I am God."

Indian Woman: So if they follow Jesus Christ...?

Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. Son of God is as good as God. That is another thing. We have no objection. Suppose in a big office, the father is there, the son is there. And the son has ordered something. The father will never say that "Don't do it." Because father and son, the same position. That is another thing.

Guest (1): But he is not Krsna.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): He is not Krsna?

Prabhupada: He's son of Krsna. That's all.

Guest (2): Now, if we take another example.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): That some people worship gods.

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Guest (2): Some people who are strictly Saivites.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice. That's nice.

Guest (2): No, No. But then what is the connection then between Krsna and Siva?

Prabhupada: Krsna and Siva, just like dahi and dudha. Dahi is nothing but dudha, but still it is not dudha.

Guest (2): It's a a different form.

Prabhupada: Not different form, different action also. If you want milk, if I give you dahi, and if I say, "Oh dahi and dudha, the same thing. Why you are not accepting this dahi?", will you accept?

Guest (2): Correct.

Prabhupada: Although the same thing, but action is different. If you become devotee of Lord Siva, you'll get opportunity of material opulences. Because Lord Siva is the husband of Durga, and Durga is the superintendent of this material world. So Durga is under control. If one becomes a devotee of Lord Siva, then Durga gives him, eh? Dhanam dehi rupam dehi rupavati-bharyam dehi yaso dehi. So you'll get all this, nice position, nice wife, nice power, famous... All this material, not spiritual. So to worship any other demigod than Krsna is materialism. That is not spiritualism.

Guest (1): Worshiping Visnu is also material?

Prabhupada: No. Visnu is not. Visnu is Krsna, Visnu the same, expansion. That you have to understand.

Guest (2): Rama also.

Prabhupada: Rama also.

ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisŠĻ≠han
nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu
krsnaŠł•; svayam samabhavat paramaŠł•; puman yo
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.39]

Tam aham bhajami. Yes. Krsna also says, mam ekam.

Guest (2): What is the position of people like Guru Nanak, Muhammad, and other people?

Prabhupada: They're servants of Krsna. They are serving on behalf of Krsna among certain people who cannot understand Krsna. Just like a student in the primary class, he does not know what is M.A. examination. Therefore teacher is teaching according to his position. But he's a teacher, he's an authorized teacher, appointed by the school, authority.

Guest (2): So they're representatives?

Prabhupada: Yes. But they're... Just like Lord Buddha. We accept him as incarnation of Krsna. But he preached, "There is no Krsna. There is no God. I don't care for the Vedas."

Guest (2): He's flaunting the authority of...

Prabhupada: No, he is authority himself. Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. He's personally Krsna.

Guest (2): Does he say so, or you...?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Sometimes he has to say so.

Guest (2): And he's allowed to say so.

Prabhupada: That is... Just like...

Guest (2): Is he allowed to say so?

Prabhupada: No, no. He is the Supreme, He can say. Just like a father cheats sometimes the son. The son has taken from the pocket of the father one hundred rupees' note. He's not separate. The father takes one lozenges, two paise worth. "Oh, my dear son, you can take it, very nice. You give me that." "Ah yes." It is not cheating? He's giving two paise worth lozenges, and taking hundred rupees' note. Is it not cheating? This is cheating. But father is cheating; therefore it is good. You cannot imitate father and cheat others. Father can do anything for the welfare of the son. That is another thing. Similarly, when Krsna appears as a cheater, the atheist class of men and Lord Buddha say, "No, no, there is no God. Yes, it is all right. You are right. But you hear me." "Yes, sir, we shall hear you." But he's God. This is cheating.

Guest (1): Was he preaching karma-kanŠłća?

Prabhupada: He said that there is no God, but he's God. Just like the policeman sometimes cheats. He goes as a gambler, but he's a policeman. So that is another thing. Therefore if you become Krsna conscious, then you understand all these different activities. Kasmin tu bhagavo vij√Īate sarvam idam vij√Īatam bhavati. If you understand Krsna, then you understand everything. And you become liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataŠł•;. If anyone understands what is Krsna, why He comes, what His activity is, then tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], simply by understanding Krsna, you, after giving up this body, you haven't got to come again in this material world. Simply by studying Krsna. Therefore we are preaching, "Simply try to understand Krsna." This is Krsna consciousness. [break] ...life is meant for to possess complete knowledge of the Supreme. That is perfection of knowledge. That is possible in the human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. That is not possible. So we have got this opportunity. If we spoil this life, living like cats and dogs, then we are missing the opportunity. This is the opportunity to understand Krsna, God.

Guest (1): Merely knowing it won't...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): Merely knowing won't do also?

Prabhupada: No, if you know, you'll act. But if you do not know, how you'll act? In the darkness? But even if you know simply... That Krsna says, janma karma me divyam. Find out.

Devotee: Janma karma...

Prabhupada: Fourth Chapter. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataŠł•;. TattvataŠł•;, if you can understand, then your business is done. Then tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Then, after giving up this body, you are not going to accept any more this material body. My problem is acceptance of this material body. That is my problem. Because these pains and pleasure, feeling of pains and pleasure, is due to my this body. Therefore Buddha philosophy is nirvana, "Make this body zero." That is his philosophy. Nirvana. Because people are bothered due to these pains and pleasures. Here everything is painful. But we take something pain, as pleasure.

Guest (1): Something, some devotees want the body again and again for doing service also.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again...

Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Krsna. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Krsna, he's not living in this material world. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Anyone who's engaged in Krsna's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Brahma-bhutaŠł•; prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. [break] ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept any material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duŠł•;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain, birth, death, old age and disease, that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure?

Guest (3): At what stage could one say that a person is Krsna conscious? There must be a beginning stage...

Prabhupada: He has no other business than to serve Krsna.

Guest (2): And only then he's Krsna conscious person?

Prabhupada: Yes. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. This is the Krsna consciousness. He has no other business than Krsna's business.

Guest (3): And if everybody became Krsna conscious?

Prabhupada: Then everybody's becoming liberated. Where is the harm?

Guest (1): Does he mean he has to...?

Prabhupada: Why to lament? "Oh, everyone is becoming good men. Nobody's coming in the prison." It is to be lamented? That nobody's coming in the prison house, it is very good news. But that will not take place.

Guest (3): Should it affect the normal duties?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): Should it affect the normal duties?

Prabhupada: Real duty is Krsna consciousness. That is normal duty. All, all other duties are abnormal duties, crazy duties. Just like pagala, they're all crazy.

pisaci paile yena mati-cchanna haya
maya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya

Anyone who's under the clutches of maya, or madness, what is the value of his duty? Srama eva hi kevalam. He's simply spoiling his time. That is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

dharmaŠł•; svanusŠĻ≠hitaŠł•; pumsam
visvaksena kathasu yaŠł•;
notpadayed yadi ratim
srama eva hi kevalam
[SB 1.2.8]

Just like you have come here, a little tendency for hearing about Krsna. Your life is succ..., on the path of success. And there are other, millions, they're not interested. So, for them, the sastra says, "They're simply working like cats and dogs." Just like dogs sometimes goes very fast this way, that way, that way, they're passing with motor car, this way, (makes barking sound) "Onh, onh, onh, onh, onh, onh." They're simply spoiling time. In America, I have seen, always, (makes automobile noise:) "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh." Here also. But we see these rascals spoiling time. But that will not appeal to the rascals. They'll say, "They are spoiling time. What these rascals are dancing Hare Krsna on the Fifth Avenue?" They think, "Oh, they are crazy fellows." Ya nisa sarva-bhutanam tasyam jagarti samyami. They are thinking us as in darkness. I am thinking, we are thinking, "They are in darkness." This is going on. But who is in darkness, that is to be decided by the supreme judgement of Krsna. Therefore I have written one, that book, Who is Crazy?

Devotee: Who is Crazy?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: That's a new book?

Prabhupada: No, old book.

Indian Woman: But, Guru Maharaja, one has to do her duty as advised.

Prabhupada: You do not know what is your duty, first of all. A madman, he does not know his duty.

Indian Woman: But if he's (indistinct), then where is he going to get the money for his food?

Prabhupada: Oh, where we are getting money? Where we are getting money? Just like In London, George Harrison has given us a house, fifty-five lakhs worth. So if I wanted to possess this house by doing this business, three lifetimes would have been required. Not even three lifetimes. We are spending like anything. But we have no stock. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow morning. We do not know. It is our position. We do not know what I shall eat tomorrow or this evening. But do you think we are starving? We have no problem.

Guest (1): Krsna says, yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [Bg. 9.22].

Prabhupada: Yes. Here it is. Krsna is giving opportunity of eating for the cats and dogs, the birds and beasts, and I am engaged in His service, He'll not give me food? Because we are not Krsna conscious, therefore we are thinking, "If I do not work like these cats and dogs, I'll starve." That is my imperfect Krsna consciousness. And perfect Krsna consciousness means he knows that "I have engaged my life in Krsna's business. Krsna is..., Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. He's feeding millions and millions of living entities. And he'll keep me starving?" Is it possible? That means he, he does not know what is Krsna. He's thinking Krsna is a fictitious thing. That is his position. He does not know what is Krsna. [break] ...then they would have been confident, "Yes, Krsna is feeding everyone. Why not me? What I have done? Because I am engaged in His service, therefore I shall starve?" And the devotee has no such question also, whether he'll starve or eat. It doesn't matter if he starves. It doesn't matter. He thinks, "Oh, Krsna has put me in this position, to starve." Just like in hospital. A patient is ordered by the physician: "You should not eat anything." So he knows, "It is good for me." Similarly, a devotee, when he's starving, he knows, "Krsna has put me in this starving condition. It is good for me." He never complains.

tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano
bhu√Ījana evatma-krtam vipakam
hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te
jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya-bhak
[SB 10.14.8]

Anyone lives in that way, that "Krsna has put me in this distressed condition of life. It is Krsna's mercy. I would have been put into more severe condition of life, but He is a little, giving me little pain. So I must be very much obliged to Krsna that He's so kind upon me." So if one lives like that, mukti-pade sa daya-bhak, he has got the claim to become liberated. Just like a son has got the right to claim the property of father, similarly, one who lives like this, he has the claim to become liberated. Mukti-pade sa daya-bhak. That is... This is Bhagavata's statement. And similarly, in the Bhagavad-gita, also it is stated... Sit down. Yes. Why you are late? We have talked so many things.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yam hi na vyathayanty ete purusam purusarsabha. That I have already explained.

matra-sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duŠł•;kha-daŠł•;
agamapayino 'nityas
tams titiksasva bharata
[Bg. 2.14]

Just like one is in winter season, and the winter... Not in this country. In Western countries, it becomes below thirty degrees. In Canada and what other places?

Acyutananda: New Vrindaban.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Acyutananda: New Vrindaban.

Prabhupada: Virginia?

Acyutananda: Oh yes. Thirty below zero.

Prabhupada: So we have no experience below zero degrees. But in Europe, America, there is places. In Russia also, below fifty degrees. But they do not stop their business. They know that "Winter season has come. It will go away again." So devotees, even they are in distressed condition, they know, "It has come due to my bad activities in the past. It will go away. Let me suffer and finish it." Just like if you become, all of a sudden, infected with some disease. So what? You'll go mad? No. You know that "I have infected this disease. Let me suffer a few days. It will go away. That's all." This is the mentality of the devotees. They are not disturbed. And if he's not disturbed, then he's fit for becoming liberated.

yam hi na vyathayanty ete
purusam purusarsabha
sama-duŠł•;kha-sukham dhiram
so 'mrtatvaya kalpate

And our aim is amrtatva, how to become immortal. That is our aim of life. So we have to achieve that goal of life. We should not be disturbed with this temporary distress and pleasure. That is called tapasya.

tapasa brahmacaryena
samena ca damena ca
tyagena satya-saucabhyam
yamena niyamena va
[SB 6.1.13]

These are the processes to become perfect. Tapasa. First thing is tapasya. And nobody's prepared to undergo tapasya. And human life is made for tapasya. Therefore in Vedic civilization, you'll find tapasya. The brahmanas, ksatriyas, they were all engaged in tapasya. Rajarsi, devarsi. Bharata Maharaja, under whose name this planet is called Bharatavarsa, at the age of twenty-four years, he gave up his young wife, children, and went for tapasya. Tapasya is the life of the human being. Not to live like cats and dogs. That is not human life. Restrained. Tapasya. But here there is no, at the present moment, there is no question of tapasya. Even one is ninety years old, he's still engaged in these material activities. Even a person like Gandhi, unless he was killed, he would not give up politics. The material activities are so palatable for the materialists, that even up to the point of death... In Bengal, there was a big zamindar. So his father, er, his sons asked him at the time of death, "Father, what we can do for you, last desires?" So he expressed that "That man is my enemy. If you can bring him here and beat him with shoes, I'll be very much satisfied." This is material world. Even at the time of death, he's thinking enmity with others. And he will, he wanted to be happy that "If you bring that man and beat him with shoes, I'll be very happy." The other day somebody said that one man was cut into two, and he was asked, "What do you want?" He said, "Give me a cigarette." (laughter) This is the position.

Guest (2): And he was cut into two.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was going to die, still he was asking, "Give me a cigarette." He does not know anything else. Therefore one has to practice. Ante narayana-smrtiŠł•; [SB 2.1.6]. At the time of death, if you can remember Krsna, then your life is successful.

Guest (2): This is very nice.

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. Simply if you can... Just like Ajamila. He simply chanted, "Narayana." Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. He was saved from the greatest danger. So this human form of life should be so trained up that at the time of death you can remember Krsna, "Krsna, now you can judge what I have done for you, and what you have done for me." Then give me that place. That's it." That... If you have worked whole life for Krsna, Krsna is not ungrateful. He'll give you.

Guest (3): Can a person become Krsna conscious only by renouncing, or can he do both, continue his life and also become Krsna conscious?

Prabhupada: What we have renounced?

Guest (3): Well, you are not conducting any business. You are conducting the business of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. So in Krsna's business, there is no question of renouncement.

Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific thing. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that...

Prabhupada: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Krsna says, if you cannot... Catur-varnyam maya srsŠĻ≠am guna-karma-vibhagasaŠł•;... [Bg. 4.13]. (end)