Malcolm: ...as with the origin of all things.

Prabhupada: So what is that origin of all things?

Malcolm: You ask me something for which I have no words.

Prabhupada: Yes. Our searching is... Not searching. We take the origin of everything, Krsna. In the Bhagavad-gita... Call Panḍitji. Find out the verse, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate. Just like in this orange there is water, (Prabhupada is eating an orange) very nice, tasteful. How it generated? (pause, Pradyumna comes in, offers obeisances)

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitaḥ;
[Bg. 10.8]

Pradyumna: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupada: This, origin. So as a scientist, what is your opinion upon this?

Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.

Prabhupada: You don't speak?

Syamasundara: He's a little humble. He...

Prabhupada: So you can take it from us, from the Bhagavad-gita, that God is the origin of everything. Earth, water, air... (Child crying.) (Aside:) Come on. He can eat?

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupada: Give him one. Take one.

Syamasundara: Orange.

Prabhupada: Come on. Come on. Yes, yes, yes. Come on. Thank you.

Syamasundara: He's the youngest one I've ever seen.

Prabhupada: How old he is? One year?

Malcolm: One year.

Prabhupada: That's nice. He has got teeth?

Mother: A few.

Prabhupada: Few. God is the source of everything. The vast water has come from the body of God. Just like from your body a little quantity of water comes out, perspiring. Does it not? So we are limited. So one ounce, two ounce, we can produce. But God is unlimited. He can produce by perspiration millions of oceans. This is our understanding. God is unlimited; we are limited. We are also producing so many things through our body. Similarly, God is unlimited. His body has got unlimited potency. So everything comes from the body of God. This is our simple understanding. God is the origin of everything.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ; sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitaḥ;
[Bg. 10.8]

One who understands this philosophy, he becomes a devotee. Budha. He's in full knowledge. This is from our tree? No.

Paramahamsa: No, Prabhupada. They're very bitter still.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Paramahamsa: They're somewhat bitter.

Syamasundara: Ours are still green. Not yet ripened. In September they'll be ready.

Prabhupada: Oh, I see.

Paramahamsa: If you want, I can clean it and cut it.

Prabhupada: No. Just I am asking. Take. Come on. (pause) Another gentleman was to come here?

Syamasundara: Yeah, there's one man coming later.

Prabhupada: When?

Mukunda: He's expected in about five minutes.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Syamasundara: Oh, at seven.

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I wanted to ask you that in your lectures you continually speak of the ten samskaras that children should have.

Prabhupada: Well, that is not possible.

Paramahamsa: Oh.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. It is very difficult. One samskara, that initiation samskara, and marriage samskara-two, three samskaras, can be done, not the ten. It is not possible. Now the circumstances will not allow. It is very difficult.

Syamasundara: One thing that Malcolm and I were talking about before was that, he was lamenting that our educational system nowadays in the west, material education, practically spoils the child to understand spiritual life.

Prabhupada: Why in the West? Everywhere.

Malcolm: More in the West because the child is more constrained in his molding.

Prabhupada: Yes. The whole defect is that we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we do not know how to conduct business with the goal of life. At the present moment, in every field, they are missing the goal of life.

Malcolm: They seem oppressed by weight of number, that there are too many.

Prabhupada: No, goal is one.

Malcolm: No, people.

Prabhupada: No, people do not know the goal. That is the defect of modern civilization. Not modern, that is the defect of material existence.

Malcolm: But a number of people over a certain size make a goal by the number of people.

Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?

Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way?

Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number.

Paramahamsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society.

Malcolm: Not... No, not mass opinion. Not the, not the involvement of the people, but the number of the people.

Prabhupada: The millions and trillions number...

Syamasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal.

Paramahamsa: Fashion. Fashion?

Prabhupada: No, therefore I say...

Malcolm: No, no. Number... I know, I... That when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see...

Prabhupada: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless?

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada has taught us that actually the amount of people in the world has nothing to do with the form of education. Simply the... For example, if everyone in the world was Krsna conscious, then where would there be a question of overpopulation? Because there would be harmony throughout society because the center of the society would be Krsna. But unfortunately, due to the overpopulation, we have so many different goals, different interests, and therefore there's continual clash. So there's nothing against overpopulation as long as people are raised in Krsna consciousness.

Malcolm: Is overpopulation, then, a more important problem?

Paramahamsa: Well, for example, even in animal society, there is more animals, there's more insects, there's more birds than human society. But there's no question... They have no starvation. They have no nuclear warfare. Because they live as they're, as Krsna has meant them to be, as their karma dictates. But in our situation we are meant to understand Krsna. This, the goal of human life, is to use our developed consciousness to serve God. But unfortunately, since we misuse this for selfish motives, therefore we have descended lower than animals. Therefore we have not even the simple harmony that animal life has. Therefore we have mass warfare. Therefore we have greed, economic distress and pollution. All these things are caused simply because we have not used our human life for understanding Krsna.

Syamasundara: I think what you are saying, in a sense, is that generally the people are innocent. They grow up... And the goals of life are forced upon them, sort of, and actually that is not, the real goal is still missing.

Malcolm: They would say, yes, that there is... The number is too many.

Syamasundara: The number of goals?

Malcolm: No, the number of people to support a system of return.

Syamasundara: Return to the real goal.

Malcolm: To the real goal. They feel oppressed into supporting the number system because it's...

Syamasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured.

Malcolm: If a man reaches his maturity of years and leaves a western school, and he has the words which say "Know thyself," may he reject his family ties?

Prabhupada: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. Maybe a family man or without family. It doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter.

Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?

Prabhupada: Yes. Some are seeking, but the medicine is there.

Syamasundara: Is looking for the medicine part of the medicine?

Prabhupada: Yes. There is no necessity of looking for it. The medicine's already there, goal of life. So we have to take information from authorities, what is the goal of life. Just like this child. The child, he knows that "My father is goal of life," or "My mother is goal of life." He may walk all over the room, but he knows that "Ultimately, my father is goal." Similarly our goal of life is the Supreme Father. Now, if this child is taken away from this room, he'll cry. He'll not be able to express that he wants the goal of his life, his father and mother. He'll simply cry, missing. Similarly, our goal of life is the Supreme Father. But because we are missing, we are crying here, throughout the universe, throughout the creation. We are simply crying. This is called struggle for existence. But the real goal of life is...(Aside) There is fire. Don't allow him to go there. There is fire. (Noise of child in background) Now, he doesn't remain there; he comes to the mother, the goal of life. Similarly, we have got our goal of life, a supreme father. We are missing that. Simply one has to know that "This is our goal of life. We were searching in vain for so many other goals of life." Na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. The goal of life is the Supreme Lord Visnu. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninaḥ;. They have missed the goal of life on account of their propensity to become happy within this material world. And that is the missing point. He cannot be happy without reaching... The same example. This child cannot be happy without being in the association of the father. If this child is taken away and he's given nice food, he'll cry. He'll cry because the goal of life is missing. Similarly, we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we are not satisfied in any way in this material world. There(fore) Bhagavata says, na te viduḥ; svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. This struggle for existence is going on because they do not know that the goal of life is God, Krsna or Visnu.

Malcolm: If the child is taken from the parents, he will cry, but he will stop.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Malcolm: But he will stop when time is past.

Prabhupada: Again cry. Again cry.

Malcolm: When a time in years pass, he will forget, and ...

Prabhupada: Yes. That forgetfulness is forced. He's, he's not happy.

Malcolm: If he would then, when he is a grown person, recapture or re-feel the link to his reason for being, he must go back in his experience or thought to the point at which he cried to feel again the feeling of being lost. Now, the Western youth seem to have been forced to accept their position, and the position that they have accepted gives them no freedom to go back and find the point at which they felt the experience of the thing they had lost. So in their minds they would say, "There is something missing. There is no God. But there is a God. Yet I must find him with my mind." And then they know through the search that it is only going back through their own years of experience to the point at which they had lost that they will find it. But for the Westerner it clashes with his total Western heritage, the thing imposed him upon by his senses which is that he may not isolate himself from his community in order to go back. And the young people cannot move because this point holds them.

Prabhupada: No. The young people, they are moving. They are coming to Krsna consciousness. There is no check. Because they are western boys, there is no check. Just like they're all Europeans, Americans. So how they are coming to Krsna consciousness? It doesn't matter whether Western, Eastern. Natural propensity is the same, either in the East or in the West. So it doesn't matter. That is not impediment. Anywhere, the science is... Just like your physical science. It is as good as in the West as in the East. For the East, there cannot be a different physical science. The same science can be taught in the East and the West.

Malcolm: And the same...

Prabhupada: Any science does not depend on East and West understanding. Science is science.

Malcolm: No. I'm talking not of science, but of education which...

Prabhupada: No, education is different. Education may be wrong or right, but science is always the fact. "Two plus two equal to four,"—that is equally good in the East and West, not that in the western countries, two plus two will be five. So similarly, any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West understanding. It is good for everywhere. Similarly, to understand the science of God, it does not depend on the Western culture or Eastern culture. One must be serious to understand. Then it is equally available. Ahaituky apratihata. These material impediments cannot check progress in the science of God, cannot. Apratihata, without any checking. That we are experiencing, that Krsna consciousness is not checked anywhere. We have got branches all over the world. Any country, there is no language difficulty. Wherever we chant Hare Krsna, they join, "Hare Krsna." There is no checking. Even Africa, they are also chanting Hare Krsna. Even the child will chant. They clap. You have seen that a small child is...? I think he..., about six months old. So there is no checking. For spiritual understanding there is no checking. The child, six months' old child, clapping, that means he's joining with the system. He's not sophisticated. He's new child, but automatically... So there is no checking. (pause)

Syamasundara: If the science is available to everyone without impediment, then there must be the proper teacher, isn't it? There must be a teacher of the science...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...where people learn. That has been a difficulty here. There's been no real teachers until...

Prabhupada: No, everyone gives his own opinion. Everyone will say... He'll not dare to say that he's speaking right, scientifically. He'll say, "It is my opinion." To avoid any difficulty, he'll say, "In my opinion it is this." I think he's speaking of that, (that) there are so many people, and they have got so many opinions.

Syamasundara: How do we know, then, what is the real fact?

Prabhupada: We have to understand it from a real man who knows it. Upadeksyanti te jñanam jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;. Find out that. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. So we have to approach the real person who has seen. Then you'll get the right goal of life.

Pradyumna:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jñanam
jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 4.34]

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

Prabhupada: So we have to approach a person who has seen the truth. It is not difficult. Just like if you are suffering from some disease, you have to go to a doctor who knows how to treat. It is same thing, like that.

Syamasundara: How do we know he's a good doctor or not? By his credential or...?

Prabhupada: No. That also... Therefore it is called sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya. Three things there are for knowledge. Sadhu, saintly person; sastra, scripture; and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether sastra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sadhu. Similarly sadhu also, whether guru says, "Yes, he is sadhu." Whether sastra says, "Yes, he is sadhu." There are three things, sadhu-sastra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way. Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the sastras. Srotriyam brahma-nisṭham. Sastra says, tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, srotriyam brahma-nisṭham. "He's well-versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Krsna conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that here is a medical practitioner? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out?

Syamasundara: Some friend, perhaps.

Prabhupada: Anyway, you have to take information. Similarly, guru, according to sastra, who is guru, he must be confirmed by sadhu, saintly person, by sastra. Then he's guru. Sadhu-sastra, guru-vakya, tinete kariya aikya.

Hamsaduta: What's the difference between a sadhu and a guru? Sadhu means authorities like Vyasa?

Prabhupada: Guru... He must be a sadhu.

Hamsaduta: It means the previous acaryas.

Prabhupada: A sadhu means titiksavaḥ; karunikaḥ; suhrdaḥ; sarva-dehinam, ajata-satravaḥ; santaḥ; sadhavaḥ; sadhu-bhusanaḥ; [SB 3.25.21]. Everything, there is definition, who is sadhu, who is guru.

Hamsaduta: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...what is sastra. Everything is there. You have to know it. What is avatara. That is my business, how to know. But there is, everything's there. What... Everyone can know it. Sadhavaḥ;, sadhu. Sum and substance of sadhu means devotee. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavyaḥ; [Bg. 9.30]. "He's sadhu." Who? Ananya-bhak: "Without any diversion of attention, he's completely engaged in My devotional service... Even if he has got some minor defects, still, because he is completely surrendered and engaged in My service, he's sadhu." Sadhur eva sa mantavyaḥ; [Bg. 9.30]. So this is the test of sadhu. Sadhu means he must be a devotee. Sadhu does not mean having saffron color and long beard and doing all nonsense. No. Sadhu means... First test is that he is unflinching, without any deviation. Api cet sudura..., bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Ananya-bhak means he does not know anything except the service of the Lord. That is the qualification of sadhu. So similarly, in other places also, the definition of sadhu is there. Sadhu means titiksavaḥ;: he's very tolerant because a sadhu has to face so many opposing elements and sometimes very offensive, but he has to tolerate. Titiksavaḥ;. At the same time, karunikaḥ;, very merciful. The same man who is torturing him, torturing him, he is trying to convince him about Krsna. That means very merciful. He's not rejecting. Although he's torturing him, but he's trying to convince him, Krsna. Therefore karunikaḥ;. And he is not friend of any particular society or man. Suhrdaḥ; sarva-dehinam. He is well-wisher of all living entities. It doesn't matter whether he's Indian, American, or black and white. No, no conception. Or even human being or animal. He is kind to everyone, friend, well-wisher of everyone. Ajata-satravaḥ;. He does not create any enemies. Such... These are the qualifications of sadhu. Sastra means the transcendental literature, not ordinary writings. That is sastra. Just like Bhagavad-gita is sastra, Veda is sastra, or Bible, sastra. Scripture means given by God or His authorized representative. That is sastra. So sadhu-sastra-guru. And guru means who is completely devotee of Krsna without any material motives. This is sadhu-sastra-guru. Anyabhilasitasunyam jñana-karmady-anavrtam, anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. (baby crying in background)

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that, you were lecturing that, that unless one performs the proper samskaras for the children, they will become degraded. They will not follow the regulative principles and such... They become unwanted population?

Prabhupada: Yes. In material world we have got so many obligations.

Paramahamsa: For example, in devotee families, if we perform the proper principles in raising children...

Prabhupada: No, your, your, your function is very simple. You become Krsna conscious, and train your children in Krsna consciousness. That's all.

Paramahamsa: But there's always a chance that they may not as well.

Prabhupada: That chance is also to you also. Maya is always there. But our duty should be like that. You become Krsna conscious and raise your children to that standard. (indistinct) Just like we are teaching in Dallas. There is nothing extraordinary. The children are there, they're learning how to read, how to write, at the same time rising early in the morning, attending mangala-aratrika, joining in the sankirtana, playing mrdanga, dancing, taking prasadam. (Aside:) That's all right. By such training, automatically they'll be Krsna conscious. And then all your duties are complete. If you make him Krsna conscious, then all your duty is finished.

Malcolm: Can you make a child Krsna conscious without believing yourself?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hamsaduta: Can you make a child Krsna conscious if you yourself don't believe in Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: If you do not believe, if the father does not believe? You mean to say?

Malcolm: If the father does not feel.

Prabhupada: Yes well, everything is individual. Father is individual and child is individual. Just like Hiranyakasipu.

Malcolm: Can a father impose on a child, something which he does not believe himself.

Prabhupada: No Krsna consciousness is transcendental position. Once one gets a little touch with Krsna consciousness, then he'll make progress. Just like the wick in a firework. Firework, a big, what is called? (sic:) Pottatter?

Hamsaduta: Firecracker.

Prabhupada: Crack. The long wick, you just set fire: (makes sound:) tille, tille, tille, tille, tille, and when it comes: tung! (laughter) It is like that. You just set up the fire and then one day he'll become fully Krsna conscious.

Syamasundara: So the knowledge is absolute, it works with anyone.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Even if he does not complete, whatever he has done, that is complete. Because it is spiritual, it is not material. In material world suppose if you want to do something, you have to make the background. And while doing the background if you could not make further progress, everything is finished. But spiritual work is not like that. From the very beginning, whatever you are doing, that is asset. Nothing is lost. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Even a little done in spiritual consciousness, that can save you from the greatest danger. (pause) Hare Krsna. So you are going?

Indian guest: It'll take me about two hours to reach there.

Prabhupada: I see, I see.

Syamasundara: Do you have any questions?

Malcolm: No, I may have questions to ask, but they're not very good questions.

Prabhupada: Yes?

Syamasundara: So the man has come?

Devotee: No, prasadam is ready.

Syamasundara: They're bringing prasadam? Oh, that's nice.

Prabhupada: So how such big men, minister, could accept such position of a mendicant and live...? Now, gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau... So they got a better thing. They dipped into the ocean of the gopis' ecstasy. They were always thinking of the gopis' activities with Krsna. Gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau muhur, vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau. So unless one gets a better thing, he cannot give up the less important thing. So when, unless one gets that better thing—better humor, better mellow—they cannot give up these material engagements. Therefore, to get that better thing, it is advised that part of your hard labor you offer to Krsna. This is called karma-yoga. You remain in your karma, but nirbandha, nirbandhaḥ; krsna-sambandhe, be touched with Krsna consciousness movement and spend at least fifty percent for Krsna. Then, gradually, you come to the... Just like the Gosvamis came. So this is the policy. Otherwise, for Krsna conscious men there is no need. Everything Krsna will supply. Madhavendra Puri installed a Deity. Now, for months, years together, only festival was going on. (pause) And another good example is that if somebody is in business and if he spends for Krsna, that is a very good example for the karmis. Because everyone is not going to stop their karmi mentality. So this will be an example, that "You are engaged in material. Now spend like this." That is another preaching. Loka-sangraha. This is called loka-sangraha, to collect ordinary men for Krsna consciousness. Just like Janaka-raja, he was a king, but great saintly person.

Paramahamsa: Lord Ramacandra's father?

Prabhupada: No, father-in-law.

Paramahamsa: Father-in-law.

Prabhupada: The great mahajanas, out of the twelve, Janaka-raja is one.

svayambhur naradaḥ; sambhuḥ;
kumaraḥ; kapilo manuḥ;
prahlado janako bhismo
balir vaiyasakir vayam
[SB 6.3.20]

These twelve. Brahma, Svayambhuḥ;; Narada Muni; Sambhuḥ;, Lord Siva; svayambhur naradaḥ; sambhuḥ; kapilaḥ; [SB 6.3.20], Kapiladeva; kumara, catuḥ;sana-kumara; manuḥ;, Manu; then Janaka, Bhisma, Prahlada, then Sukadeva Gosvami, Bali Maharaja, and Yamaraja, vayam. So these are eight mahajanas. Out of them, Narada is brahmacari, Brahma is grhastha,... Svayambhur naradaḥ;... Sambhu is grhastha. Then Kapila, brahmacari, Kumara, brahmacari. Then Manu, grhastha; Janaka-raja, grhastha, Bhisma, brahmacari, then Sukadeva Gosvami, brahmacari; then Bali Maharaja, grhastha; Yamaraja, grhastha. So there are grhastha, brahmacari. It doesn't matter. Everyone can become mahajana by his example of service to Krsna. It doesn't matter. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also never said that a, one has to become brahmacari. No. He Himself was grhastha. So there is no difficulty. Svayambhur naradaḥ; sambhuḥ; kapilaḥ; kumaro manuḥ;... [SB 6.3.20]. (pause) (prasadam comes in) You take.

Syamasundara: His argument in the newspaper by other people complaining against Zaner's argument. Not members of our movement, but other people, Englishmen. "Zaner is a fool," this and that.

Prabhupada: Oh yes, they have called. He is a fool.

Syamasundara: We'll bring them up. They're in the Times, letters to the editor.

Prabhupada: And we have directly called him fool, rascal.

Syamasundara: Other people are also criticizing. They find other things in his argument that are not... They say he has to realize Bhagavad-gita before he can criticize anything.

Prabhupada: Yes. He does not realize. He does not know anything. You can read this letter. It is very interesting.

Syamasundara: To Zaner this one? Or to...

Prabhupada: General, general. Reply.

Mukunda: We've also invited him to come here.

Syamasundara: No one defended him in the newspaper, Observer.

Prabhupada: So other protests have been published in the paper?

Syamasundara: Yes. I'll bring them up to you. (end)