Guest (1): But if an animal kills, he gives for food.

Guest (2): Another one, Guru Maharajaji, they are taking our picture and selling all Christian books as religion education, moral education. And this is the tools. These people little cunning, eh? When it comes to my knowledge, I was almost...

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Guest (2): Hare Krsna. And they are selling all these Christian books in the schools and all over.

Prabhupada: Wherever. This is our advertisement.

Guest (2): Advertisement...

Prabhupada: Demonstration of world religion.

Guest (2): World religion.

Prabhupada: This is world religion.

Guest (2): But what inside... (showing pamphlet or something) They say religion and moral education books, and all this... So actually, they should take our permission also. So this will sell our books. Our organization, not theirs, controlling the people.

Prabhupada: No, they are taking.

Guest (2): Religious people are recognizing that this is very important. They say "the world religion," and this is the tool. They say, well, the tool. "Here is the new tool for religion education in the secondary schools." So they are recognizing this fact.

Prabhupada: Without canvassing, people join.

Guest (2): This is the fact here, see.

Prabhupada: And the world religion... The Ratha-yatra, we did not ask any particular man. Everyone came and joined. You were there?

Guest (1): No, I was not.

Prabhupada: Everyone came and joined. Everyone took prasadam. And they were in Trafalgar Square from five to eight, continually. And Guardian published that...

Devotee: Several pictures...

Prabhupada: "Rival to Nelson." Our Ratha-yatra is rival to Nelson. Actually world religion. There is no doubt about it. Krsna is for everyone. And we have no restriction. They, so long they, our so-called Hindus, they restricted. But now this is open. (Hindi) [break]

Guest (1): I think the article they got in a straight weekly mag... (indistinct) envy our national character. You know, there's envy, a lot of envy. If you are successful, or somebody is successful, everybody becomes jealous.

Prabhupada: So that we explain every day. This material life means to become jealous. That is material life. Material life means you are jealous of me, I am jealous of you.

Guest (1): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [SB 6.3.19] "Religion is given by God." (Hindi) sarva-dharman parityajya, mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So this is religion. (Hindi) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhagavata says dharmaḥ; projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. This is religion. That is first-class religion, which teaches bhakti. Yato bhaktir adhoksaje, to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Aksaja. Aksaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to "ksa", whatever experience we have got... Or aksa means eyes, senses. So within sense perception, whatever is there... God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhoksaja. Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. That is first-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhagavata as kaitava. And Sridhara Svami gives his comments on this kaitava: chala-dharma. Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, moksa-vañchapi nirastam. That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called moksa. Dharma-artha-kama-moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90]. Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and then merge into the effulgence, moksa, liberation. So Sridhara Svami says, up to moksa-vañcha is cheating, kaitava. Up to moksa-vañcha. Moksa-vañchapy atra nirastam, kevala bhagavad-upasana. That is dharma. That is real dharma. Bhagavad-upasana. So we are teaching that religion, bhagavad-upasana. Simply. We have no such ambition, to be elevated to the heavenly planet or to merge into the Brahman effulgence. No. We can live anywhere, even in the hell. It doesn't matter. But our worship of Krsna shall continue. This is our religion. So we are not ambitious to go to heaven or higher planetary system or higher standard of life. We have no such ambition. We simply want Krsna and worship Him, that's all. Never mind where it is. This is real dharma. Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. So this boy has become your cela (disciple). He's very nice boy. What is his name, Dhruvananda? Or his father's name. What is your name?

Dhruvananda: Dhruvananda.

Devotee: Dhruvananda.

Prabhupada: Dhruvananda. Yes. Aiye. Aiye, bache, Aiye bache. Hare Krsna. (Hindi) You are coming from where?

Guest (3): (Hindi)

Guest (2): His, there's a place here, his.

Prabhupada: Oh. (Hindi)

Guest (3): (Hindi conversation for some time with English words here and there.)

Guest (3): (Hindi) And I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, and I have come back. I think the life is more peaceful here than it is in India.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (3): It's more peaceful.

Prabhupada: Especially in Bengal, all, they have turned to be low...

Guest (3): Due to poverty, Guru Maharaja?

Prabhupada: Ne, culture...

Guest (3): Culture nasti.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Poverty's not question.

Guest (1): It's basically the character, the problem of the character.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) They have no idea about Vedic... They are supposed to be preaching Vedanta philosophy, but they do not know what is Vedanta.

Guest (1): I like this philosophy of Swami Rama-tirtha... But I read his literature and I quite liked his philosophy.

Prabhupada: Rama-tirtha also, he gave stress on omkara. Is it not? Omkara?

Guest (1): Hm. I think he is more on this karma-yoga. He believes that you should. Or... (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (1): Your karma is actually the other secret of success or something like that.

Guest (2): There are so many. I think it is in Bhagavad-gita Krsna explains that...

Guest (1): It's all his words, not outside words, in Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (1): No, (Hindi). First I went there...

Prabhupada: So you have got your own house there, Dehra Dun?

Guest (3): No, I tried to buy house, and I made deposit and everything. I wanted to buy the house. Then I came to England to raise the money. I raised the money and went back to India. And by the time I went back, there were four litigations going on on the house.

Prabhupada: Oh... (laughter)

Guest (1): "I got this right on this house."

Guest (3): There were four litigations going on on that house, and, you know, they all wanted the possession of the empty, vacant part of that house. I mean it was part possession property. They all wanted possession of the vacant part.

Prabhupada: Then what happened?

Guest (3): So anyway, fortunately, the vendor also told me he doesn't want to sell. I said "Thanks to God." So he gave me the money back...

Prabhupada: So you returned. That's nice.

Guest (3): ...and I got out of it. I was lucky, really, you know.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (1): (Hindi)

Guest (3): So I was very lucky, really.

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (1): (Hindi conversation for some time) [break]

Prabhupada: ...otherwise, in his preaching, he never stressed. He said,

kiba vipra kiba nyasi sudra kene naya
yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

"It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyasi or grhastha or a brahmana or sudra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Krsna, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. (Hindi) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brahmana, a sudra. It doesn't matter. Similarly, Krsna consciousness means one should be Krsna conscious. He should know the science of Krsna. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Just like Sankaracarya, (Hindi) First of all, you become sannyasa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyasa to the caste brahmana. Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyasi or grhastha, it does not matter. You must know the science of Krsna. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Krsna." So he's Dhruvananda?

Guest (1): Dhruvananda.

Guests: Dhruvananda.

Prabhupada: Dhruvananda. And what is your father's name.

Dhruvananda: Devadatta.

Guest (3): Devadatta dasa.

Prabhupada: Devadatta.

Guest (3): Devadatta dasa.

Prabhupada: And your mother's name?

Dhruvananda: Draupadi.

Guest (3): Draupadi.

Prabhupada: Yes. That DDD. All "D". (Hindi conversation for few sentences.)

Guest (3): That was a determination to learn. One has got the... He has written his own (indistinct) confusion ...

Guest (1): (indistinct) what was Dronacarya. He has taken his thumb for nothing actually.

Guest (3): No, that was his test.

Guest (1): In order to please Arjuna.

Guest (3): In order to please Arjuna. And that was his test. And that was his determination, that he rejected, and he learned the science, just, uh, faith.

Prabhupada: In material world such competition is there.

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: That is not spiritual world. That is material. So Dronacarya gave Arjuna the benediction that "You shall be the greatest archer." So in order to keep his promise, he made that...

Guest (1): That wasn't, I think, what he did. (Paramahamsa or someone else enters.)

Paramahamsa: Syamasundara, Syamasundara is not in the temple.

Prabhupada: Oh. What is that?

Devotee: Oh, this is just a little preparation, burfi and a little kheer.

Guest (3): Can't you bring him the plate like that?

Prabhupada: No, that's all right.

Devotee: I tried to find a plate. There's no... Should I leave it here?

Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.

Guest (3): So so many stories he had memorized, and he started writing and asking many questions, Prabhupada, so I'm not... But he has got the talent that if he'll get the right guidance and all this, he can easily translate Mahabharata, many stories in the book shape, in different articles, which can very much help in our movement.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): And for six weeks, seven weeks, his holidays he can remain.

Prabhupada: Yes, you remain here.

Guest (3): Remain here. Then how he can develop it? So now you are quite free in next... All right? And he has memorized almost all your bhajana, everything.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Guest (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dasa Thakura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least, he's on the right path.

Prabhupada: Everyone can be on the right path provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path.

Guest (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the asrama. Do you run sort of a school for them all?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them.

Prabhupada: Hm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care.

Guest (1): How many children are here?

Prabhupada: You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there.

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: No, why? There is... Go and sleep.

Guest (1): Go and sleep?

Prabhupada: Yes, go and sleep. Take rest. Go on.

Guest (3): You know, Prabhupada, when you came to my house that evening...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (3): You had hari-kirtana at our house and everything.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): We had a very funny incident after you left. After two or three days, my young daughter, you know... She's about two or two and a half at that time. She was sitting in one corner of the house, and she, you know, those cups like this you have to have, to keep under the furniture legs, you know, cup like this, she had two of them, and she was doing like that. And, uh...

Prabhupada: Karatalas.

Guest (3): My daughter. I asked her, you know, "What are you doing?" She replied quietly, "I'm doing Hare Krsna."

Prabhupada: Just see.

Guest (3): So that really hit me hard, and I thought, "Look, one day's sat-sanga can have that effect on life, how much bigger effect it would have..."

Prabhupada: Intelligent, this is intelligent.

Guest (3): "...if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say, "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really struck me.

Prabhupada: No, you can attend here. You remain here.

Guest (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat-sanga, first time in her life.

Prabhupada: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the... Therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction.

Guest (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know.

Prabhupada: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children. They dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras. What is his name?

Satsvarupa: Bhakta Visvareta.

Prabhupada: Ah. Oh, he'll fall flat just like... And he will chant all these mantras. "Nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presṭhaya bhu-tale..." A small child at three years old. You see.

Guest (1): I mean, advancement has very...

Guest (3): Good association.

Guest (1): ...effect, you know, on the mind.

Prabhupada: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh?

Satsvarupa: Just... It's not very difficult. It's just that we have... There is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his... So we're bringing children from other countries.

Guest (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls?

Satsvarupa: No, boys and girls.

Guest (3): And they are very well looked after there?

Satsvarupa: Up to fifteen, yes.

Prabhupada: Well, as far as possible.

Guest (3): As far as possible. Do you have a prospectus or anything about that school?

Satsvarupa: Yes, I have literature.

Guest (3): You have literature about that school?

Prabhupada: He's in charge.

Guest (3): You are in charge of that school?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): I see. Can I ask...

Prabhupada: But tell... He has started.

Guest (3): You have started that school?

Satsvarupa: Prabhupada started it. (laughter)

Guest (3): Yes. Could you sometime tell me about that school.

Satsvarupa: Sure, later we can talk.

Prabhupada: There are good teachers. We are teaching Sanskrit and English especially.

Guest (3): They teach Sanskrit, English?

Prabhupada: That is what. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, arati, worship of the Deity, and they play mrdanga, they chant, they join Hare Krsna chanting. They are not meant for any technology.

Guest (3): No.

Prabhupada: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brahmana. Not for become technologists. Technologists, there are many.

Guest (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life.

Prabhupada: Oh yes. That is the only business of human life.

Guest (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. [break] ...I believe every [break] ...goes to this sort of school.

Guest (3): There are so many.

Prabhupada: They have no idea.

Guest (1): I have not been there. I just heard about it.

Prabhupada: Actual spiritual life... [break]

Guest (1): I was trying to read the (indistinct) philosophy. Too difficult for me...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): I found it too difficult for me to understand.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita?

Guest (1): No, (indistinct) philosophy, (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Oh, nobody can understand. Simply he can understand.

Guest (1): So difficult.

Prabhupada: It is meant for him.

Guest (3): You read Guru Maharaja's Bhagavad-gita, so simple. Even the child can understand who knows English. [break]

Prabhupada: ...trouble to the poor animals. Why the poor animals should be killed? They have got equal rights. But these rascals, they will not give equal rights. [break]... National means one who is born in that land. The animals are born in that land. Man is also born in that land. Trees are also born in that land. But they are not national. Only human beings national. Imperfect knowledge.

Guest (4): In Luton, before eighty years... When I was reading the history of Luton, on the page number 176, it was written that there was a great shortage of food before eighty years, and in some place people were cutting their own children and eating.

Prabhupada: Huh?!

Guest (4): This is written. If you like that book, I can send you. So the non-vegetarians...

Prabhupada: Cutting their children?!

Guest (4): Cutting their own children, killing them and eat them. In some private places in Luton, where I am residing now. The history of Luton has been published by the County Borough of Luton. The non-vegetarian food leaved them to such an extent that they couldn't stay without the meat. And they had to cut their own children. Now we are vegetarian. I have never tasted any meat. I don't know the taste of it. Still. we all exist on vegetables, all sorts of vegetables.

Prabhupada: The same thing happened in Kanpur in a hotel. One man was eating meat, and he found a little finger...

Guest (4): Finger of some...

Guest (2): That was in the Bombay, in the Villa Parle, in my place, where I was living.

Guest (4): Newspaper (Hindi)

Guest (2): This gentleman went to the hotel and found a small finger.

Prabhupada: Small children cut up. And there was another case in Calcutta. The, one Chinaman, he was eating human being. And then... [break] ...some Kancawala (?) (beggar) him called, and then captured and killed him. This was going on. Later on, when police enquiry was made, so many human...

Guest (2): Bones...

Guest (4): Skeletons.

Prabhupada: ...bones, skeletons was found. In Africa there are still cannibals.

Guest (4): Oh, yes.

Krsna-bhamini: In South America as well.

Prabhupada: South America also? In India also.

Guest (1): That, these...

Prabhupada: Yes. In Assam side.

Guest (1): This Assam, some of the places.

Prabhupada: Yes. They eat human beings. Nara-buli (?), sacrifice human being, still there is a class of men.

Krsna-bhamini: In South America, they take a human being. From the head down, they eat. Then the head, they shrink it until it becomes very small, and this is a great prize.

Guest (2): (Hindi) That was on the television, given all this, in South America, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Just like you, you keep the tiger's face after killing.

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Guest (5): Does this food make effect on a human nature?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (5): These non-vegetarian foods and things like that. They definitely make effect on a human nature and behavior.

Prabhupada: No, there is difference. George Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book: "You Are What You Eat." So eating has got effect. Sattvikahara or... Unless one is in the sattvika position, he cannot understand about self-realization. It is not possible.

Guest (5): The human beings get dreams, and what's the lesson between the dreams and the actual life. Suppose I have a dream at night...

Prabhupada: Dreams mean that is also change of body.

Guest (5): It has nothing to do with the human...?

Prabhupada: No, dream... Just like you forget about this body. Just you have forgotten what body you had in your last birth, similarly, the same experience daily happening. When you dream, you forget that you have got this body. And again, when you give up your dreaming, you come to this body, you forget in what body you were dreaming. So this is the proof that you are living entity, but the body's changing daily. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says, tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. But these rascals, they do not understand that there is the dehantara. They are experiencing daily that there is dehantara, but they do not have any education about this dehantara.

Guest (5): (Sanskrit:) Visvambhara para drsyamanam nagari tulyam na janantara-gatam, pasyam atmani mayaya bahir ivodbhuḥ;atam yatha nidraya, yaḥ; saksad kurute prabodha sameya svatman eva advayam, tasmai sri guru-murtyenam etam sri taksna murtaye.(?)

Prabhupada: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ; [Bg. 2.13]. As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gita: yanti deva-vrata devan [Bg. 9.25]. You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṝn yanti pitr-vrataḥ;. You can go to the Pitrloka. Bhutani yanti bhutejya. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Krsna says. So why not go back to Krsna? Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Krsna? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Krsna consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats and dogs category; go back to home, back to Krsna." There is... Here is the possibility. Krsna says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Krsna says: janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ;: [Bg. 4.9] "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Krsna, what I am..." Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding Krsna, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking...? Even if you take the body of demigod, like Brahma, millions of years age..." That is stated in the Bhag ... abrahma-bhuvanal lokaḥ; punar avartino 'rjuna [Bg. 8.16].

Guest (5): Ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg. 9.21].

Prabhupada: Ksine punye punaḥ; martya-lokam visanti. So why should we waste our time. Even I become Brahma, again we have to come.

Guest (5): (Hindi) Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14], ksurasya dhara nisita duratyaya.

Prabhupada: Duratyaya mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. (Hindi) But if there is physician, it can be cured. So that is there said: daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya. Very difficult. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. So why don't you do that.

Guest (5): Tam eva saranam gaccha sarva-bhavena bharata.

Prabhupada: Yes. So they'll not do this. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. They'll not do it. They're determined to suffer. So what can be done?

Guest (5): Sva-dharme nidhanam sreyaḥ; para-dharmo bhayavahaḥ;.

Prabhupada: But he does not know what is the sva-dharma. Sva-dharma, that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanam sreyaḥ;. You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brahmana. But he's not doing that.

Guest (5): So he's not performing his sva-dharma.

Prabhupada: No!

Guest (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him.

Prabhupada: It is dangerous. He's already... A brahmana is doing sudra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brahmana- like, you do like, act like brahmana. Janma-karma, uh, guna-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brahmanas. Now act like brahmana. Then your life is succ... Varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ;, svanusṭhitasya dharmasya samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. You act as a brahmana and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varnasramacaravatam purusena paraḥ; puman, visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. If you strictly act as a brahmana or as a ksatriya, as a vaisya, as a sudra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya [Bg. 18.46]. If, by your action, as it is described in the sastra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharman means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brahmana, you cannot act as a ksatriya, neither you are brahmana or ksatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam... This is the protection.

Guest (5): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. He cannot be called a brahmana unless he acts according to his guna. If he's acting in differently, he should be... [break] ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vina pasughnat [SB 10.1.4]. Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize. Srotramano 'bhiramat. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kirtaniyaḥ; sada hariḥ;. Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised, kirtaniyaḥ; sada hariḥ;.

trnad api sunicena
taror api sahisnuna
amanina manadena
kirtaniyaḥ; sada hariḥ;
[Cc. Adi 17.31]

So this is the only remedy, Hare Krsna. Therefore you'll find all our students, they have got these beads. We have got these beads. Either we shall chant Hare Krsna or we shall talk of Krsna. That is also chanting. When you talk of Krsna, that is also chanting. Kirtana, kirtana means kirtayati, talking, speaking. Just like Pariksit Maharaja. Pariksit Maharaja: sri-visnoḥ; sravane pariksit. The item is sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; [SB 7.5.23]. About Visnu, to hear and chant. So simply by hearing about Visnu, Pariksit Maharaja became liberated. Sri-visnoḥ; sravane pariksid abhavad vaiyasakiḥ; kirtane. Vaiyasaki, the son of Vyasadeva, Sukadeva Gosvami, he became perfect kirtane, by kirtana. But he... He was... He did not chanted Hare Krsna maha-mantra, but he recited Srimad-Bhagavatam. So that is also kirtana. Talking of Krsna, that is also kirtana. Kirtana does not always mean that you have to chan... You have to engage yourself always in glorifying the Lord. Just like Maharaja Ambarisa. He was a busy emperor of the world, but he engaged himself... Sa vai pumsam... krsna-padaravindayoḥ;. Sa vai manaḥ; krsna-padaravindayoḥ; [SB 9.4.18]. He fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Krsna. This is first. If you fix up your mind on the lotus feet of Krsna, then: sa vai manaḥ; krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikunṭha-gunanuvarnane and he was talking only describing and glorifying Vaikunṭha. God's another name is Vaikunṭha. In Madras they say Venkatesvara. Vaikunṭha. Kunṭha means anxiety. So God has no anxiety, and God's devotees have no anxiety. Therefore they are vaikunṭha. Here in the material world everyone has got anxiety. Therefore it is kunṭha, the world of kunṭha, anxieties. Everyone. Birds, beasts, human beings. There must be kunṭha. So God is Vaikunṭha. The vaikunṭha-gunanuvarnane. This is also chanting, kirtana, to describe about Vaikunṭha. Vaikunṭhaloka, Vaikunṭha person, Vaikunṭha devotees. So this is the remedy of bhavausadhi. Bhava. Bhava means to take birth. Bhava. This is called bhava-samsara, this material world. Here bhava, you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-samsara, repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says ei rupe brahmanḍa bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva [Cc. Madhya 19.151], we living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situations, different position and in this way wandering up and down, brahmanḍa bhramite, within this universe. Sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet. Sometimes as human being, sometimes as cat, dog. Sometimes brahmana, sometimes sudra, like that. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that the living entities are wandering like this. Ei rupe brahmanḍa bhramite. Bhramite means wandering. Kona bhagyavan jiva. One fortunate person, guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151], by the grace of guru and by the grace of Krsna, one gets the seed of devotional service. Mali haña kare sei bija aropana [Cc. Madhya 19.152]. And when you get a nice seed of plant, you sew it. So that seed has to be sewn within the heart. Mali haña kare sei bija aropana, sravana-kirtana-jale karaye secana. So if we sew the seed within the heart and water it... And the watering required. The watering is this sravana-kirtana. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ; [SB 7.5.23]. Then it grows. And in due course of time, it gives you the fruit, which is love of Godhead. Then your life is successful. This is the process. So we have to try to sew the seed of devotional service within our heart, and it has to be watered by hearing and chanting. Then gradually it will grow. This is the process. And this is open for everyone. There is no restriction.

Guest (1): And no price.

Prabhupada: And no price also. (Hindi) Eh?

Guest (6): This morning we didn't want to disturb you to have a darsana.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. You came in the morning?

Guest (6): I came in the morning.

Prabhupada: You came in the morning, yes. You are for many years here in...?

Guest (7): Yes, I have been in this country since about thirteen years.

Prabhupada: Thirteen years?

Guest (7): Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh, long here. You are for fourteen years?

Guest (8): In 1959. Yes, over fourteen years now.

Guest (6): He has established very well in the insurance business.

Guest (8): Which business?

Guest (7): Insurance.

Guest (6): He has got a loan insurance company.

Guest (8): Can he insure that somebody will not die? (laughter)

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest (8): He said he has established a very good insurance business. So I put the question that can he insure that somebody will not die. That he says "I have got a very good business." What is that good business means... (laughter)

Guest (7): I'm out of business. If you take that to me, I'll be out of business.

Prabhupada: No, good, God is all-good. Therefore any business dovetailed with God, that is good.

Guest (8): That is good.

Guest (7): Any business based on ethic is good.

Prabhupada: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate naraḥ; [Bg. 18.46]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Sva-karmana, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was ksatriya. So sva-karmana, by his fighting business, he served Krsna. He fought for Krsna. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭha varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ;. The Suta Gosvami said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brahmanas in Naimisaranya—so he said, ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭhaḥ;. You are all very first-class brahmanas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭha varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ;. According to the division of varna and asrama. Four varnas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. And four asramas: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. This is Vedic civilization, varnasrama. Varnasramacaravatam purusena paraḥ; puman... [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varna and asrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varnasramacaravatam purusena paraḥ; puman visnur aradhyate... But that is the beginning of Visnu worship. So Suta Gosvami said, varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ;. You may be a brahmana. You may be a ksatriya. You may be a vaisya. You may be a sudra. You may be a brahmacari. You may be a grhastha. You may be a vanaprastha or sannyasa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭha varnasrama... Varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ; must be there, division. Vibhagasaḥ; svanusṭhitasya dharmasya samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example. He was a ksatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Krsna. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brahmana or vaisya, let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Krsna. Then you are successful.

Guest (7): How does one find out that this act is pleasing Krsna or not?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (7): For example, a soldier fighting in a war...

Prabhupada: Yes. Then you have got to talk with Krsna...

Guest (8): Or somebody...

Prabhupada: Just like Arjuna talked.

Guest (8): No, I mean, for example, you know, somebody dropping bomb in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. How does he know...?

Prabhupada: No, you cannot drop. You cannot drop.

Guest (8): How does he know that he is pleasing God or he's not pleasing God?

Prabhupada: That, that... Therefore you have to know how to talk with Krsna. Then it will be possible. You cannot manufacture. And that is that you can talk with Krsna by devotion.

Guest (8): Because apparently, you know, to a layman, this killing wasn't an act which will please Krsna, and that, what Arjuna did, kill such a big army and everything, it will... Normally you know, a layman would have thought it won't please Krsna.

Prabhupada: So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ; [Bg. 4.2]. Parampara. Krsna says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Iksvaku. In this way..." Evam parampara-praptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Krsna's representative is there. If you talk with the Krsna's representative, then you talk with Krsna. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Krsna, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Krsna. It is not difficult. The acaryas are there. Acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna says. "All the acaryas," mam vijaniyam, "they are Myself." Navamanyeta karhicit, "Never disregard acarya." Acaryam mam vijaniyam navaman..., na martya-buddhyasuyeta "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' " No. Anyone who is talking of Krsna as Krsna talked, he's Krsna's representative. Krsna says that "I am the Supreme." So if anyone says, "Krsna is supreme," then he's Krsna's representative. It is not very difficult. Because the same talking. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. If somebody says that "You surrender to Krsna," then he's Krsna's representative. But if somebody says, "Krsna is not God. I am God," then he's not representative. To talk with Krsna is not difficult. You find out the representative, talk with him, and you are talking with Krsna. That's all. So Catur-bhuja, where he has gone?

Guest (8): To bring some prasadam.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. (Someone enters.)

Guest (8): Now, while Bhismadeva was a devotee of Krsna, why he has taken the Kaurava side? Many people ask about... He knows Krsna...

Prabhupada: First of all give him. Yes.

Guest (8): ...and still, he took the side of Kauravas in the fight, being a devotee of Krsna, and he knew that Panḍavas were right and Kauravas were not right. So many times this question has been very...

Prabhupada: Because he wanted to be killed by the devotee of Krsna.

Guest (8): By God. (background talking)

Prabhupada: Bring more.

Guest (1): O.K.

Prabhupada: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought... He expressed that "Duryodhana...," he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious. Because Krsna is there. So let us fight with..." Because ksatriya, this fighting is sporting. You see. That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles, that "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana... They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect... So when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed these moral principles. "So one is maintaining me and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well."

Guest (8): Morally.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (8): That's the question we were discussing. Yes.

Prabhupada: Is good?

Guest (8): Oh very well. We discussed this point in Bhagavatam, and these young boys, they tried to very closely to the point so that if I put the question before you...

Prabhupada: If somebody is maintaining you, and when he's in danger, you go to his enemy's side, that does not look nice. Yes. Otherwise, everyone was on Arjuna's side. Dronacarya. But they considered like this, that "They have maintained us so long. And now there is fight, and we shall go to the enemy's side. What is this? What people will say? 'Treacherous.' "

Guest (8): Traitors. And what about the Vidura? Why he went away?

Prabhupada: Vidura was neutral. He left home when he understood that "Fighting is now inevitable. They'll fight. Why shall I remain here?" He left home. And Krsna also said that "I will not fight. I'll not fight because this is family quarrel. I am known to every one of you. We are related. So I cannot take this side or that side. I may be..." He divided... He, by tricks... His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. So Duryodhana preferred, Duryodhana preferred His soldiers, that "Why shall I take this one man. I'll take His soldiers." And Arjuna said, "No, I want Krsna." So Krsna said, "Although I'm going to your side, but I'll not fight. Mind that." And, "Never mind, You don't fight." Mahabharata is very nice. "Greater India." Mahabharata means "The History of Greater India." Mahabharata. Maha means "greater."

Guest (8): That inspired the devotees, really, like anything, and...

Prabhupada: And that was written for stri-sudra-dvija-bandhunam [SB 1.4.25]. Mahabharata was written by... This is history, but it was written by Vyasadeva for woman, stri, sudra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with sudras. So stri-sudra-dvija-bandhunam. For these women, sudra and dvija-bandhu, Mahabharata is Vedic literature. But for their understanding... They could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahabharata was written. And in Mahabharata he gave the topics, Krsna and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gita. Therefore Bhagavad-gita is the essence of all Vedic literatures.

Guest (9): The Haryana government is constructing very gigantic, you know, temple over there at the birthplace of Gita, at Kuruksetra. I was there ten days before.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest (9): I was there from ten days before at Kuruksetra.

Guest (8): Kuruksetra.

Guest (9): Kuruksetra, yes. And they have decided now that about ten crores of rupees must be spent over there.

Revatinandana: The government of India is constructing a temple there? Is that what you said?

Guest (9): Haryana government is particularly concerned about that, you see.

Prabhupada: Where? In Haryana?

Guest (9): Kuruksetra.

Guest (8): Actually, that is not by the government. That is by Nanda.

Guest (7): No, not...the newspaper. That minister.

Prabhupada: You, you can give. (about prasadam)

Guest (7): Nanda. He is, he is the chairman of that. I heard that about him.

Prabhupada: You give, yes. You, whoever you have not given, you give. She does not know.

Guest (8): To whom you have not given here?

Prabhupada: :Accha. Give, give others, visitors.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what is the difference between an innocent person and an ignorant person?

Prabhupada: Innocent person means he's not offender. And ignorant is sometimes offender.

Devotee: Thank you.

Prabhupada: A child is innocent, and his father is ignorant. His father may be knowing something, and purposely does not take. That is ignorance. Or he thinks that "What is the use of taking it?" That is ignorance. And innocent, he does not know anything. Actually, practically, there is little difference, but if you ask, you can differentiate in this way. Just like in Bhagavad-gita it is said, na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante naradhamaḥ; [Bg. 7.15]. This muḍha is ignorant, and he does not take to Krsna consciousness. Everyone, according to our Vedic culture, for the last five thousand years, everyone accepts Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but he'll not do. He will say, "Why Krsna will be the Supreme Lord? I am also." This is offense. This is offense. Duskrtinaḥ;. This offense is created on account of sinful life. Duskrtinaḥ;. Innocent has no sinful life. Otherwise there is no difference between ignorant and innocent. Purposefully, when one remains ignorant, foolish, purposefully... He'll not accept. Na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; prapadyante naradhamaḥ;. According to Vedic culture, Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But there are many purposefully who will not accept Him. What can be done? They will argue. They will not accept the acaryas. All the acaryas, they accept Krsna. Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya. They are the leaders of Vedic culture at the pre..., in the present moment. They are accepting. But other, foolish people, they are not accepting. mayayapahrta-jñanaḥ;. They have been described in the Bhagavad-gita: their knowledge has been taken away by maya. Although they appear to be very learned, but actually, a sense of knowledge has been taken away by maya. Mayayapahrta-jñanaḥ;. Real thing they do not understand, nor, or refuse to understand. So they are offenders. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, mayavadi haya krsne aparadhi. "All the Mayavadis, they are offenders to Krsna." Tan aham dvisataḥ; kruran ksipamy ajasram asubhan asurisv eva yonisu [Bg. 16.19]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Dvisataḥ; kruran. They're envious, krura. "I put them into the hellish condition of life." These, these Europeans and American boys, they're innocent. I have told them that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." They have accepted. That's all. Others, they will argue, "Why Krsna shall be...?" They're offenders. Yes. They do not know what is Krsna; still they will argue.

Guest (7): Because they're ignorant.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (7): Because they're ignorant.

Prabhupada: No ignorant. Purposefully.

Guest (7): Purposeful, knowing that, knowingly that Krsna is the Supreme Lord and Supreme Authority, even then, if they ignore it...

Prabhupada: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmasṭami, accepting Krsna. But still, they will not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Krsna shall be...? I have got Durga. I have got this, Siva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ; [Bs. 5.1]. In Bhagavad-gita... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita it says, Krsna says, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior than Me." Aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ;: [Bg. 10.8] "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam ekaḥ; (Kaṭha Upanisad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityanam. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Krsna personally says, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Mayavada philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Mayavada philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended that mayavadi haya krsne aparadhi. "All the Mayavadis, they are offenders to Krsna." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Krsna consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."

Revatinandana: He would take it as prasada? (laughter)

Prabhupada: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Krsna is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument.

Revatinandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.

Prabhupada: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Krsna. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Krsna mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Krsna movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the sastra it is said,

harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]

kaler dosa-nidhe rajann
asti hy eko mahan gunaḥ;
kirtanad eva krsnasya
mukta-sangaḥ; param vrajet
[SB 12.3.51]

They'll not take to it. So they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune, they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha... [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the different stages. The sraddha stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritamrta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is visvasa. So Caitanya-caritamrta author says, "Faith means visvasa sudrdha-niscaya." Faith, this is faith. When one believes firmly, sudrdha-nis..., and with confidence. What is that? Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya: "If one becomes devotee of Krsna, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Adau sraddha, with this faith one has to begin. Then the faith has to be increased by sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], by association with a devotee. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivrttiḥ; syat. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato nisṭha. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato nisṭha rucis tataḥ;. Then attraction. Tato nisṭha rucis tataḥ; athasaktiḥ;. Then he cannot leave. Asaktiḥ;. Tato bhavaḥ;. Then ecstasy. Sadhakanam ayam premnaḥ; pradurbhave bhavet... These are the different stages of sadhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that krsne bhakti kaile sarva... Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to Krsna, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gita creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttiḥ; syat tato nisṭha rucis tataḥ;, athasaktis tato bhavaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta... "Simply by becoming devotee of Krsna, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], by association with the devotees. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sangaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principles of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning, if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning ABCD. What...?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith. But that is required.

Revatinandana: Faith begins from the association of devotees?

Prabhupada: And that, that faith becomes stronger by association; by association of the devotees, the faith becomes stronger. And the more your faith becomes stronger, you make progress. This is the way. Progress means the same faith becoming stronger, stronger, strongest. The same faith. The principle is the same, Krsna. Then you know more about Krsna. Then you become more faithful.

Revatinandana: Is this faithfulness, is it a product of the mode of goodness?

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not... Unless you take it seriously... Then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness... That, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively.

Revatinandana: Sometimes the... Krsna says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why...

Prabhupada: No, I'm... That is generally. Unless one becomes in goodness... But bhakti-marga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaituki apratihata. Ahaituki. Apratihata. Nothing can check bhakti-marga. Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaituki apratihata. Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material... These goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions.

Revatinandana: Why is it then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it?

Prabhupada: That is his choice.

Revatinandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition?

Prabhupada: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept.

Guest (10): So does faith develop from accepting?

Prabhupada: Yes. Faith means acceptance. When you accept, then your faith begins. If you have got hesitation, then the faith has not begun. Or it is on the hazy state. (pause) Get the lights on.

Revatinandana: So in the human life the distinguishing feature is that his spiritual independence can show itself; whereas the animal is completely under the modes, but the human being, the modes' influence is reduced sufficiently so that he can make this decision, from, whether to accept or reject Krsna?

Prabhupada: Animals also can be delivered, provided he follows a devotee.

Guest (11): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): He's just asking for your blessings...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): Your blessings, Swamiji, will do a lot of good. He's involved in some personal family problems.

Guest (11): Personal family problem. I am now (indistinct)

Guest (2): I told him...

Prabhupada: (Hindi) chanting... Hare Krsna nama... Bhavausadhi... Bhavausadhi, medicine of all material diseases. This distressed condition of material world is a diseased condition, and this is the remedy. (Hindi for a few sentences)

Guest (7): To eradicate disease, it needs counteraction. the... I...

Prabhupada: Eh? This is recited from the sastra, bhavausadhi. This is the only disease, uh, only remedy.

Guest (7): Remedy.

Prabhupada: Yes. And you haven't got to spend anything to purchase this medicine. Neither there is any loss. Why not try it for some time.

Devotee: Because it's free, that's why they're hesitating. (laughter.)

Guest (1): That's nice.

Guest (11): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) I'm very glad to see you. Whenever few times...

Guest (7): It's a pleasure, sir, to have your darsana.

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Guest (8): You can come in the morning. We have got... Guru Maharaja speaks in the morning, Bhagavad-gita classes.

Prabhupada: Morning (Hindi)

Guest (7): To chant Krsna's name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads.

Prabhupada: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to... Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulations, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Dronacarya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly you can practice: chant Hare Krsna.

Guest (3): Swamiji, tomorrow is Gaura-purnima. And a friend of mine, his father, or his mother died on Ekadasi day. Husband and wife were, they had been fasting Ekadasi doing Satya-narayana-katha. So now father, he is very lonely, and he said, "I have got no guru." Then I told him about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation?

Prabhupada: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand...

Guest (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Gaura-purnima. That's why I thought if tomorrow...

Guest (8): If he deserves it.

Prabhupada: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see.

Guest (3): Tomorrow morning? Accha. The beads, Swamiji. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office?

Prabhupada: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market.

Hamsaduta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupada just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat-eating, meat, fish, eggs, and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. And anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as...

Indian: As effective as it would be.

Hamsaduta: Exactly.

Guest (4): So what you're saying is that there's no harm by his...

Prabhupada: No, you can... That will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra papas catur-vidha. According to sastra, these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult.

Guest (3): Swamiji? Tea and coffee's also included?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pana. Chai, pana. Pana, pana means intoxication. Dhumra-pana.

Guest (7): Dhumra-pana.

Guest (2): And what about supari, Swamiji?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is also ingredient of pana. Pana, it is called pana.

Guest (2): I offered Vaikunṭhaji supari. You see he won't accept it. So I thought, well, it only helps digestion because it only brings the saliva in the mouth.

Prabhupada: Well, wine is also very digestive. (laughter) An appetizer also. All Europeans, they take first of all wine to eat voraciously. I see in the airplane. And after taking wine, they eat so much.

Guest (8): And then they go for dancing to digest it.

Prabhupada: Simple life, simple life, innocent life... Because after all, we have to give up this material world. If we become attached, then we'll have to take birth again. Nivrtta-tarsair... There is another verse quoted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is very difficult, but there is possibility. Niskiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana, those who are eager to go back to home, back to Godhead... Param param jigamisor bhava-sagarasya. On the other side of this material world. For him... Visayinam sandarsanam atha yositam ca, ha hanta hanta visa-bhaksanato 'py asadhu [Cc. Madhya 11.8]. For such person to be attracted by these material things is not good. It is suicidal. So material things, visaya, simply increasing the method of eating, sleeping, sex life and defense. This is material activity.

Guest (8): Defense?

Prabhupada: Defense. Defense means... Just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gita you'll find, it is said, yesam tv anta-gatam papam. "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities." Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam. "And always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drḍha-vrataḥ; [Bg. 7.28]. "He becomes free from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed-up in My service." So this is the condition, that yesam tv anta-gatam papam. Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavan, what is Bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex... If you can, if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya, little tapasya. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya, austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student, that "You have to follow this." And that's all.

Guest (4): (Hindi)

Guest (1): In the evening tomorrow, Swamiji, have you got any special program or...

Prabhupada: No, anyone can come after four.

Guest (5): Four to...?

Prabhupada: Four to six.

Revatinandana: I think tomorrow evening there'll be special, some special guests coming. Tomorrow evening.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Revatinandana: Not tomorrow...

Prabhupada: No, you are also. You come. You are also. You come.

Guest (5): Some people they work, you see, seven days of the week.

Guest (8): Sunday night?

Guest (5): No Sunday is tomorrow. So they wanted to come.

Revatinandana: Yeah, except tomorrow evening, I..., Syamasundara's arranging a very special conference. And I don't think...

Prabhupada: That's (all) right. They also come and here what is... It is open to everyone. Our special conference: Bhagavad-bhakti.

Guests: Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Guest (5): Otherwise, you know, we are disallowed...

Prabhupada: No.

Guest (1): ...we have got your permission, then.

Prabhupada: They will also hear. Yes. (Hindi) Jaya.

Guest (1): (Hindi for few sentences)

Prabhupada: Punjab?

Guest (5): I'm a Hindu.

Prabhupada: You are Hindu, but which province.

Guest (5): I come from Guyana and my father's from...

Prabhupada: Oh, Guyana. That South America.

Guest (5): No. My father's from India. My mother's from India.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Guest (5): No, they come from Jullundar.

Prabhupada: Jullundar, Punjab.

Guest (5): Yes. And...

Prabhupada: What you are doing here?

Guest (5): Well I have come... I'm working at the moment. I'm working at the moment.

Prabhupada: Working?

Guest (5): Yes.

Prabhupada: What work?

Guest (5): Well I'm on the (indistinct) hotel. In the kitchen working, all the washing, and the supervising and things. You know, my father's seen you. He's come and seen you a bit.

Prabhupada: Ma-phal?

Guest (5): My father.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Guest (5): He's come around, eh? I think he came in London, to the Hare Krsna temple in London. He came there. All (indistinct) This thing has really gone into my mind. And I don't drink, no meat, nothing, you know.

Prabhupada: You don't eat meat?

Guest (5): Nothing. No drink, no...

Prabhupada: Ah, very good boy. [break]

Prabhupada: ...ready to sacrifice your hair?

Guest (5): Well, I had it before.

Guest (2): Not yet. (laughter)

Guest (1): Is it compulsory to have a full consciousness that he must shave his head?

Prabhupada: No, no. This is formality. But he must be prepared to observe formality also. But if it is very much objectionable, sometimes we excuse.

Guest (7): Now I have finished my one year, one year and one week, or something, for my practice, you know. So I'll be taking before and next year. Still, I... (laughs)

Prabhupada: No, you can come any time.

Guest (7): Now it's 73 or 72 days so I'm counting the days.

Prabhupada: (Hindi for few sentences) Or debts. He thinks, "Oh, this is small debt." No, sometimes it becomes compound interest, big amount. So therefore Canakya Panḍita says that these three things must be finished by the root: agni and vyadhi and rna. We should not neglect.

Guest (7): What is that? Agni...?

Prabhupada: Agni, vyadhi, disease. And rna, debts. You should not neglect it. You should finish it.

Guest (8): Before it's increased more.

Revatinandana: Fire? Fire, disease and debts.

Prabhupada: Debts. One should not neglect.

Guest (6): You don't drink tea, do you? No tea?

Prabhupada: No.

Guest (8): No tea, coffee, no...

Guest (7): I know. I stopped coffee because I don't have it often in my office staff. But tea, still, I'm thinking to leave the tea, you know. I see that Prabhupada will ask me to give up everything, you know. (laughs)

Revatinandana: You'll have to replace it with something higher. When you want a cup of tea, you chant Hare Krsna. That's how I stopped smoking cigarettes.

Guest (7): Oh, my God. You can (indistinct) us (indistinct) stop smoking.

Prabhupada: No, no. (Hindi) "Where there is a will, there is a way." (Hindi)

Guest (7): So when I shall take the whole promise?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest (7): When I shall take the whole, the whole of what everything is to do this...?

Prabhupada: Yes, at any time, when you are ready.

Guest (8): (Hindi) ...any time.

Prabhupada: (Hindi or Sanskrit)

Guest (1): (Hindi for couple sentences)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) [break] ...polluted and we have to deal with them.

Guest (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee... "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an ounce..."

Prabhupada: Now, when I was grhastha, so they offered tea, I said, "I don't take tea." Then they said "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water. That sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality.

Guest (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know.

Guest (8): Hospitality means prasadam.

Prabhupada: Hospitality means first of all, he should ask, "What can I offer you?" This is hospitality.

Guest (8): Naturally, you know...

Prabhupada: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter)

Guest (8): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: No, no. Hospitality is first... According to our Indian system, (Hindi) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water." or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality.

Guest (9): (Hindi) Somebody comes to my place...

Prabhupada: So you should ask, "What can I offer you?"

Guest (9): ...say, "A cup of tea will do." Then?

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Guest (9): We cannot give him cup of tea.

Prabhupada: No, you cannot give, that "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter)

Guest (8): No tea, now. Why do you keep that tea in the house?

Prabhupada: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandesa or some sweetmeat or... What is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him... There are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered. Is it very nice preparation?

Guest (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want...

Prabhupada: I want things are nice, but...

Guest (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea.

Prabhupada: They might have gone to hell, but I am not... (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat-prasada. We are offering our Bhagavat-prasadam. Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all.

Guest (9): No, what I (indistinct) I take but wife takes half, and children, they didn't take it, but they want a cup of coffee. One boy wants cup of coffee, the girl wants a cup of tea and...

Prabhupada: Well, the...

Guest (9): But the... And when the... That is the... This is the problem...

Prabhupada: This happened in my life... This happened in my life.

Revatinandana: Listen. Listen.

Prabhupada: My wife was taking tea. So I asked her not to take tea, not to take tea. But she didn't care husband. Then I gave her final, that "Either you have to give up your tea or your husband." (laughter) So she agreed to give up husband, not tea. (laughter) So I left my home. That's all. (laughter)

Guest (8): Due to tea!

Guest (9): There won't be any place for me to go now.

Prabhupada: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is... Habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four asramas: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's grhastha. His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyasi.

Guest (1): He is lucky.

Prabhupada: Yes, lucky.

Guest (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there.

Prabhupada: He has good wife, good children, all favorable for Krsna consciousness. He does not...

Guest (8): This is Prabhupada's mercy really.

Guest (1): No, but, that I'm saying...

Guest (8): We have been living fourteen years in this country. They were brought up here, and they never touched tea. They were brought up here, school education and all that, fourteen years...

Prabhupada: Yes, in England, in London.

Guest (8): And I must say they are advancing more than me, really. I am still the same stage; by Prabhupada's grace, they are advancing more, get up early in the morning, four o'clock, take bath...

Prabhupada: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife... His wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Na grham grham ity ahur grhini grham ucyate. Just like we are also living within a room, grha. But we are sannyasi. What is the difference between grhastha and sannyasi? He lives with his wife. Grhini grham ity ahuḥ;. Grhini means "the wife is grha." So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Krsna. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyasi. No. Why? There is no necessity. Grhe va vanete thako. Either you become sannyasi or grhastha, the life must be dedicated for Krsna. That's all. That is required. And for Krsna's sake, if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job? If Krsna wants that "You give up this habit,"... Just like Krsna says... If you become devotee of Krsna... Now, Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So Krsna wants that patram puspam phalam, "Vegetable, milk, rice, grains, you can give Me." So you have to please Krsna. You live on this, what Krsna says, and take Krsna's prasadam. That's all. (People coming in) Aiye. (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: "...my dear boy, what best learning you have learned?" He was child, boy. So he said, tat sadhu manye 'sura-varya dehinam sada samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. "My dear father..." He did not address father as "Father." He addressed him as asura-varya, "the best of the asuras."

Guest (8): "Best of the asuras."

Prabhupada: Yes, "best of the asuras." Asura-varya. Varya means the best. And asura... Because his father was demon. So he was calling his father "demon number one." "My dear father, my dear asura-varya..." Tat sadhu manye 'sura-varya dehinam. "Anyone who has accepted this material body..." Dehinam, he has said. Sada samudvigna-dhiyam. "They are all full of anxiety." Anyone. Not only human beings, even animals, birds, beasts. You'll see, when a bird is there, he'll always, that, "Some enemy may not come." Even animals. Even tiger is afraid, although he's so powerful. Elephant is afraid. sada samudvigna-dhiyam. Why? Asad-grahat. "Because they have accepted this material body." Then what is the remedy? Now, hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam, hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. "They should not be satisfied with the society, family and love and this and that. They should take shelter of the lotus feet of Hari. Then they'll be happy." We are trying to be satisfied in this material condition, society, friendship, love and so forth, so on and we are after that. But there, there is no possibility. Unless you take shelter of Krsna, harim asrayeta, there is no possibility. The whole world is trying to adjust things of the society, friendship, love and material atmosphere. That cannot be. That is not possible. Only by taking shelter... Therefore Krsna says. Not whimsically. That is the only remedy: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the only remedy. There is no other remedy. But they'll not take. What can be done? This is the only remedy, harim asrayeta. One should take shelter of Hari, Krsna. Then he'll be happy. Otherwise it is not possible.

Guest (6): Then we'll come in morning?

Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) (end)