Room Conversation
Jakarta
26 Feb

Prabhupada: Matir na krsne parataḥ; svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punaḥ; punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], tesam visṭhabhyam vikraman visad to...(?). (hums softly) What is your philosophy of life?

Devotee: Philosophy of life.

Guest (1): What do you mean?

Prabhupada: Philosophy means why you are working, why you are living, what is the purpose.

Guest (1): We are working for (indistinct), I have been working also. We just follow the same tradition.

Prabhupada: Still there must some why. Why your forefathers they work and they die? So do you think that is the only philosophy, to work and die? That is being done by the animals also. They work and die.

Guest (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: That is another thing. First thing is, why you are working? What is the purpose of working? If the purpose of working is to work hard and then die, finished, then where is the difference between the animals and the men? They are also working. They are dying, too. Cats, dogs, hogs. Then after some time they die without knowing the purpose of life. Then where is the difference between cats, dogs, hogs and (indistinct) human beings. This question does not arise in the modern civilization. And one is thinking, "Yes, it is the same." But they're lying on the street, we're lying on a very nice apartment, bedstead. This is our profit.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, it will take about a half hour to get the puffed rice.

Prabhupada: No, no. Then you give me, little fruit or...

Devotee: Fruits?

Prabhupada: You have got that sliced? Bread sliced? No.

Devotee: Slices of bread, I have them here.

Prabhupada: The last one.

Devotee: The one we made last was a good one.

Guest (1): What bread is that?

Prabhupada: (Hindi) In Bombay it is very... Somebody told me that he made at his home. They do it at home.

Devotee: I think it's called rice.

Prabhupada: Rice, yes. In Bengali we call muḍi. It is very popular, staple food for ordinary, everyone. In Bengal village, it is very popular because they're rice eaters. From rice they make this puffed rice. So they taking it in the morning. Puffed rice, mixed with molasses and cheese. It makes very good combination. Similarly... Puffed rice must be there, and fruits, like mango, banana, little molasses, and cheese mixed together. It is very nice. (indistinct) This jackfruit... Puffed rice is the vehicle for eating all this. Or if these things are not available, then mix with ghee, little and salt, pepper and, what is called? Cucumber.

Guest (1): Cucumber....

Prabhupada: Khira, khira. You know khira?

Guest (1): No, I have been only once to India.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Guest (1): Puffed rice, what is it called?

Prabhupada: In Bombay it is called kumula.

Guest (1): Kumula.

Prabhupada: You are in a different world.

Guest (1): Yes. Is it Bengali food though? In Bombay also?

Prabhupada: Yes. This puffed rice is used all provinces, all provinces, especially in Bombay and Bengal. I think everywhere, in Madras, U.P. In U.P. it is called bajiya, chaval chana bajiya.

Guest (1): Channa we have.

Prabhupada: No. Channa. That is called chaval. Puffed rice means chaval. From grains we have got varieties of foods. Grains, fruits, vegetables, milk, sugar, you can make at least four hundred, five hundred varieties.

Guest (1): From rice.

Prabhupada: No. From grains.

Guest (1): From grains.

Prabhupada: In the Marwari community is, that is called... channa, channa. Channa and ghee, they can make varieties of preparations. Channa powder, chick pea flour, besan, besan. You know besan? Yes. From besan they make so many varieties. Besan, ghee and sugar.

Guest (1): Puffed rice, how to cook it?

Prabhupada: Puffed rice itself is cooked food.

Guest (1): It's cooked food.

Prabhupada: Yes. Rice, puffed, fused. Not fused, puffed. No, it is not boiled.

Guest (1): We get it...

Prabhupada: It's a rough quality rice. It is not made from fine quality rice.

Guest (1): Unpolished.

Prabhupada: Unpolished, rough quality rice. It is washed nicely, then mixed with little salt, then it is fried, then it is... They know the temper, fried, then they get it out. In Bengal they make. My mother used to do it. Then on sand bath, hot sand you put this prepared hot rice and puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, puff, it becomes puffed. And then you take it out. And then mesh it, to get out of the sand. Then you cook it. It is cooked in sand bath, hot sand. All this bujiya, bujiya, grains. In India there is professional maker. You... They have got hot sand always ready. You take some grains, and then you put in the hot sand and put, put, put, put, put, put, then they mesh it, return it (indistinct).

Even in Punjab, I think. I think you have seen also, they take the dough for professional bread maker. The householder they make the dough and took to a shopkeeper, and they make the bread. You haven't got to take the chaval, and make the bread. What is called that? Big, big...?

Devotee: Big bread.

Guest (1): Capaṭi?

Prabhupada: No. Capaṭi is different. Punjabis...

Guest (1): Papad.

Prabhupada: No, not papad.

You have got papad?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Take papad. Not now, at lunchtime. (Hindi) So you can come at night?

Devotee: (offers obeisances to Srila Prabhupada) [break]

(Hindi conversation)

Devotee: Very soon the man from department of religion will be coming.

Guest (1): Minister of religion.

Devotee: Yes.

(Hindi conversation between guests and Srila Prabhupada with occasional English words and phrases interspersed)

Prabhupada: Shall we go there so that we can sit comfortably.

Devotee: Well there're the same amount of chairs whether we're here or there.

Prabhupada: No, there are no more chairs. (indistinct)

Devotee: Yes, I guess that's best.

Prabhupada: People are coming, so will you kindly take the trouble to, inside sitting?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes, thank you very much. (to guest:) You don't take charge of that.

Devotee: We will take that. [break] Yes. This is Mr. Ivy Mastram and he is in charge of the Hindu and Buddhist Department of the Department of Religion. And this is his next-in-command, director-general, Mr. G. Puja. He was educated in India also.

Prabhupada: Oh, really. Which city?

Guest (2): Benares (indistinct) University.

Prabhupada: Oh, Benares University.

Devotee: Actually, they have arranged by giving a letter, that we can stay in the country. They simply say, "We do not object," and then the immigration gives us a good visa. They especially like your books.

Prabhupada: Oh, thank you. You have read some of my books?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: They are not my books. I am simply translating. They are written by Vyasadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is the government must be responsible of proper execution of religious system. It doesn't matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Mohammedan or Buddhist. It doesn't matter. But it is a government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu whether he's executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government. Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that "You may go on with your so-called religion, we don't care for it." No. That is not government. Government's duty is to see, just like for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." It is the government's duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, "Why he's killing?" Immediately he should be punished that "You are professing as Christian and you are killing." This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahimsa. Ahimsa paramam buddhiḥ;. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we... what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedanta-sutra, it is said, athato brahma jijñasa. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? If simply eating, sleeping, and sex life, and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat. They also sleep. They have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their own nails and claws. The different spirit is there. So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life—this opportunity's given by nature to have a human form of life—is to understand God. Nobody can deny—unless he is a crazy fellow—the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn't matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion. Now there may be difference of process, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government... Hare Krsna (someone enters). Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department?

Guest 2: Excuse me, my English is very poor. I would like Mr. Kunti to translate, Indonesian. (Indonesian)

Devotee: He would like to have him translate English to Indonesian.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other...

Prabhupada: Very good idea. This is very nice.

Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions (indistinct). So the government have to lead the people how (indistinct), to supply also, in the (indistinct) of their materials for readings, and facilities for their, prosecuting their religions. This is the actual (indistinct) department.

Prabhupada: So this is the idea which I was explaining that...

Guest (2): (Indonesian) As a matter of fact, also that we are looking from the Hindu and Buddhist religions' point of view, how to get (indistinct) this department, especially because we are feeling of lacking of materials because no of our books actually here, written in ancient Indonesian language, which are translated from Sanskrit (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Ancient English...?

Guest (2): Ancient Indonesian language.

Prabhupada: Accha.

Guest (2): And now actually, most of the Sanskrit texts also, are not available anymore. Of course we have some few can be available from (indistinct) and that is why actually, to develop this new religions, as well as the Buddhist religion, which have a lack of material for reading. Now the government also tried to rewrite into Indonesian bhasa, and as one of the aspects, for example, that Bhagavad-gita has been translated into Indonesian.

Prabhupada: Mmmm.

Guest (2): Which we are expecting that this Bhagavad-gita should be read by English (indistinct) and also, matter of fact, most of English readers can understand and they have the ideas of the Mahabharata, and Ramayana, and the essence of the Bhagavad-gita. Now the problems, at least the department has (indistinct) facing difficulties to supply materials that are actually needed by the people, is we are lacking of materials. So how, actually we have to solve this problem actually. We are actually, from the government point of view always looking and how we can try to get international relationships between various countries to solve the problems. As the same case also how to educate Indonesian peoples to study more about the Hinduism in order they can teach the Hinduism because in our country religious instruction is compulsory in our, any institution. So we felt, actually in our lack of material as well as lack of institution to develop this Hindu religions. And I, from our government actually, we are expected your visit here that it will be beneficial, both for our side, from the government point of view, and as well as for here and as well in your country.

Prabhupada: So I think your problems can be solved if you kindly cooperate with us.

Guest (2): Yes. That's why we are looking for... because...

Prabhupada: We can give you correct idea of religious principles as well as our philosophy.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Religious idea without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined. Religious idea supported by philosophy. Then it is correct. And philosophy without religious idea is simply mental speculation. They should be combined. That combination of religious idea and philosophy, you'll find in the Bhagavad-gita, provided you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is. If you interpret Bhagavad-gita in your own way, then you'll miss the point. Just like in our country, in India, Bhagavad-gita has been interpreted in so different ways that people are now bewildered. They do not know what is actually Bhagavad-gita. Take, for example... Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gita, it is said, dharmaksetre kuruksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ; [Bg. 1.1]. I think you know Sanskrit. Samaveta yuyutsavaḥ; mamakaḥ; panḍavas caiva kim akurvata sañjaya [Bg. 1.1]. Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kuruksetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kuruksetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader that gita is going on. Kuruksetra means this body. Panḍava means the five senses. In this way [break] ...they cannot (indistinct) I may tell you frankly. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gita? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader the people are misled. Similarly, all... at present moment in India the Bhagavad-gita has becoming a plaything that anyone can interpret in his own way and do all nonsense. But I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gita, you have translated. Amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands, swamis and yogis went there. But not a single person could understand what is Bhagavad-gita, and what is Krsna. Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa, everywhere, Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees... So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gita nicely. So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African, God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form... The form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in a different way. But we are not talking to the dress, we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. You know. Panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ;. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini suni caiva svapake ca panḍitaḥ; sama-darsinaḥ; [Bg. 5.18]. Because panḍita does not see the outward dress, panḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gita, or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone. That is my, not opinion, but is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are not very clear, not easily understood... There is example in Sanskrit grammar, gangayam ghosa bali(?). The neighborhood of ghosa family is on the Ganges. Now, on the Ganges-Ganges is water—how there can be a village? Now, here interpretation required. When the matter is [break] ...on the water but on the bank of the Ganges. So when the meaning is not clear, then you can interpret. But when the meaning is clear... Just like Bhagavad-gita: dharmaksetre kuruksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ; [Bg. 1.1]. Now Kuruksetra is still there, in..., about 90 miles away from Delhi. Perhaps you have been there. The station is there, Kuruksetra. Now how one can interpret that kuruksetra means this body? This is going on. In spite of clear understanding, they interpret in their own way so that they have got their own philosophy, they want to support. This is going on. So if you kindly avoid this misleading interpretation, and if you take Bhagavad-gita as it is, then you get the science of God, science of religion, which is applicable either to Indonesian or Indian or African or American, everyone. The science is appreciated everywhere. Two plus two equal to four, this mathematical science is applicable everywhere. It doesn't matter whether one is a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. Similarly, Bhagavad-gita is the science of religion, science of God. So if you take this book seriously, and try to spread this knowledge among your countrymen, I think you'll be very much benefited. And it can be... We are preaching that. We are the, our Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for one God, one scripture, one mantra, like that, for all people of the world. And we are happy that people are accepting it in that way, very nicely. And it is very easy. It is very easy. So Mr. Director he has read Bhagavad-gita?

Guest (2): Yes. He has read it.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Guest (2): And I think many Indonesian people, actually have read this Bhagavad-gita because we have translated that Bhagavad-gita in 1966.

Prabhupada: I see. Very nice. So have you read our, this Bhagavad-gita As It Is?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: You like it?

Guest (2): (indistinct) because when I was in India (indistinct).

Prabhupada;: So religion must be there. Without religion the human society is animal society. There must be religion. And religion means to know God. That is religion. What is your explanation of religion?

Guest (2): Actually (indistinct) religion has to be defined as (indistinct)

Prabhupada: What is that (indistinct)

Guest (2): :(indistinct) to understand religion is (indistinct)

Prabhupada: :Yes. They must be the same. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the course, or the laws given by God. Just like law means the law given by the state. I cannot manufacture law. The citizen cannot manufacture law. The law is manufactured by the legislative assembly of the government. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. Now we have to understand who is God, and what is His order, and how it is applicable to everyone. That is the system of religion. We cannot whimsically give some rituals as religion. The principle of religion is to obey the orders of God. Therefore the first principle is to know who is God. Unless I know what is God, then how I can know what is His order? So in the Bhagavad-gita, the religion is given that—(Aside:) you are feeling sleepy, you can go—the Bhagavad-gita, it is said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion. We have manufactured so many types of religion, and here God says that "You give up your manufactured religion. You just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Religion means to surrender. A good citizen means to surrender to the government law. Similarly, a religious person means who has surrendered to God. Nowadays it has become a regrettable fashion that everyone is God, when we surrender to one. And this false prestige that "I am God. I haven't got to surrender to anyone. I am God. What surrender?" This atheism is going on and spoiling the whole human society. God has become so cheap. Any nonsense can claim, "I am God." That is the defect of the modern society. There is a great necessity to understand God. If everyone is God then where is the necessity of religion? If everyone is president then where is the necessity of lawmaking? So this is going on. This is very unfortunate situation. What is your idea?

Guest (2): (indistinct) that in our Hindu text, for example, that when it's expressed aham brahmasmi, so...

Prabhupada: Aham brahmasmi is the Vedic version, that is all right. Aham brahmasmi means, "I am spirit. I am not this body." So 'ham means, "I am the same quality as God." But they are misinterpretation: So 'ham means, "I am God." This is nonsense. This is going on.

Guest (2): That's misleading.

Prabhupada: Misleading. People have become nonsense. (conversation between the two Indonesian guests) You have published Bhagavad-gita with commentary or simple translation?

Guest (2): With commentaries.

Prabhupada: So whose commentary you have followed?

Guest (2): We try to take from various books and we try, at first we have to understand clearly their positions, then we put them in a simple way that everybody can understand it clearly. Only the part that's very difficult to (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Now here, Bhagavad-gita, in the Fourth Chapter it is said, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. You can open to the Fourth Chapter.

Guest (2): (Indonesian) but according to our opinions that religion is something that true living.

Prabhupada: Something?

Guest (2): Something that we should live truly.

Prabhupada: True living. Yes. True, just like good citizens...

Guest (2): That's right.

Prabhupada: Good citizenship means living under the direction of the government. That is good citizenship. Similarly, human life means to live nicely under the direction of God. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. But the human life, (pause) That first verse: imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha manur iksvakave 'bravit [Bg. 4.1]. So what is your explanation of this verse?

Guest (2): You want to explain this into er... Do you want to explain this?

Prabhupada: Yes. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha manur iksvakave 'bravit [Bg. 4.1].

Guest (2): Yes. This actually is explaining the origins of the law, ancient law, that's obeyed by the man. It's the law given from the Vedic literature...

Prabhupada: Krsna.

Guest (2): Yes. Krsna (indistinct) and coming to Iksvaku and...

Prabhupada: Yes, that (indistinct) means, that means this knowledge should be received from the authority.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Just like...

Guest (2): So actually they have acquired it from one source.

Prabhupada: Yes. One link. So that is being deviated. What Krsna said to Vivasvan, to the sun-god now everyone is speaking in his own way, not in that way.

Guest (2): That's right.

Prabhupada: Therefore it is deviated. The Bhagavad-gita, the Chapter, Fourth Chapter explains that you cannot understand Bhagavad-gita by your own interpretation. You must follow the instruction of the original speaker of Bhagavad-gita. The original speaker is Krsna. So what Krsna says, they have to follow it. Then it is Bhagavad-gita. Otherwise if you interpret it in a different way then it is not Bhagavad-gita. Now, what Krsna says we have to understand it philosophically, ethically, scientifically, any way, any angle of vision. That is, that you can do. But you cannot change the version of Bhagavad-gita. You cannot change. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan, in the Ninth Chapter when Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Dr. Radhakrishnan says "It is not to the Krsna person." But Krsna person says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;, "You just always think of Me." And he's deviating his readers, "Not to Krsna." How much harm he's doing. This is going on. Why? It is said, Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ;, "Just think of Me. Just become my devotee." What right he has got to say that here it is not to Krsna? This is going on. So if we interpret in that nonsense way then we shall not be able to understand Bhagavad-gita. We shall miss this point. Science does not mean that you have to change according to your whims. Two plus two equal to four. You cannot make it five or three. That is not possible. Then it is not science. No longer the scientific value of this two plus two remains. We follow that principle, and that is the only principle. So if you're actually serious about Bhagavad-gita, I do not know what is your commentary. I request you, "Try to follow the instruction of Krsna. Don't interpret in your own way. Then it will be (indistinct)." Everyone has got (indistinct) all over the world. Therefore we are selling this Bhagavad-gita As It Is very nicely. Our publisher's MacMillan Co. and their trades managers report is that our Bhagavad-gita is increasing daily, sales, other decreasing. That is the report, and in October they published 50,000 copies, it is already finished. Now they have to plan it for the second edition. People are very much now, eager to read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. So, imitating us, somebody's, another (chuckles) man, he said "Bhagavad-gita As It Was." (laughs with everyone) Like that. So that will not harm our cause.

Guest (2): (Indonesian) One thing Mr. (indistinct) would like to answer from you, that, according to different view, objective reply, the object of this (indistinct) life, the objective of our religion is to be prosperous in this world and hereafter.

Prabhupada: No. This is (indistinct) Prosperous. That is also stated, how you can become prosperous. That...

Guest (2): The problems work like this...

Prabhupada: No. That is also stated...

Guest (2): Whether this question also...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. This is there...

Guest (2): This what it is.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find this verse. (Aside:) Find out. Bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29]. Bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram, suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jñatva mam santim rcchati. This is the santi, prosperity. They are... Krsna says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer. I am the sole proprietor of everything." Sarva-loka-mahesvaram. Sarva-loka, not only of this planet, but other planets also. Loka. Loka means planet, sarva-lokam. So bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram, suhrdam sarva-bhutanam. "I am the best, I mean to say, well-wisher friend of everyone." Jñatva mam santim rcchati. If one understands these three things only, that God is the Supreme Enjoyer. We are not enjoyer. But God is Enjoyer. That God is the Proprietor of everything. Not we are proprietor. We are subordinate. In the Vedas also, it is stated, eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman (Kaṭha Upanisad 2.2.13). The description of God is like that He's eternal amongst the eternals. We are also eternal, the living entities. And God is also eternal. Nityo nityanam... cetana, He's the vital living force among all living forces. We are all living forces and He's the chief living force. Then what is the distinction between this singular number, nitya, and the plural number, nityas? The distinction is that that singular number, nitya, is maintaining this plural number, nityas. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That is the distinction. Otherwise God is also a living entity like us, like one of us. But he's the chief. Just like father and children. Father is the chief man in the family and he's providing all necessities to life for the children, for the wife (indistinct). Although the father is also living entity and the children are also living entities, but the father is providing the children, and the children are being provided by the father. So this is the understanding. Unless we understand this, there cannot be any peace. That is the Vedic version. Anyone who understands this, he gets peace. Otherwise there's no possibility of peace. If I think that I am the proprietor, if I think that I am the enjoyer, or, in other words, I am God, then you'll never get peace. That is not possible. That is a false. If one of the children thinks that I am the independent, then naturally father will say, "All right, if you're independent, do your own business." This is an example. So if you want peace then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, you have to learn these three things. It is not very difficult. To accept God as the Supreme Enjoyer, and God as the sole proprietor of everything, and He's the best friend of everyone. Then you have peace. Anyone can appreciate this. Anyone can adopt this principle and he'll be in peace. And so long one will falsely think that "I am God. I am enjoyer, I am this, I am that." Then he'll suffer. False notion will never make him happy. He must come to the true, factual idea. Now you can examine that Krsna says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer." Now let us understand this one fact, how Krsna's the enjoyer. Now suppose here is some banana fruits. Who has created this banana fruit? You are not manufacturer, I am not manufacturer. Somebody has created. We accept God has created and that's a fact. Then who should be the enjoyer? I shall be enjoyer or God shall be enjoyer? Anything you create, you become the enjoyer. Anything I create, I become the enjoyer. So if God has created this banana fruit, then who should be enjoyer? God or I?

Guest (2): God.

Prabhupada: Yes. So our business is, we should offer this banana to God. "So it is Your creation, it is Your thing. First of all You taste it, then we take it." Then you become in peace. And if you falsely think that "I have created this banana tree. I have worked so hard. Now the fruit is there. Now I am the enjoyer." Then you are mistaken. Then next statement is, bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka mahes... [Bg. 5.29], "I am the proprietor of everything in the world." Now, beginning of this world, Bhumi, land, this land, they're claiming this land Indonesian, this land American, this land Indian. But has the Indonesians or the Africans or the Indians created this land? Who has created this land?

Guest (2): God.

Prabhupada: Then He must be proprietor. But we are falsely claiming that, "I am the proprietor." So how you can be in peace? Suppose you steal something, somebody's property, and falsely claim, "I am proprietor," you'll never be peace because it is not your thing. You have stolen it. So in this way, if you... philosophy can be studied that God is the Supreme Proprietor, tena tyaktena bhuñjithaḥ; [Iso mantra 1]. You can simply use what is given to you. You cannot claim other's property. Just like in animal life, animal life, they do not claim that "This is my country." The birds, they do not claim, but they live very peacefully. There are crows, there are spa... What is called? So many birds, they live anywhere, everywhere, but they do not claim, "Oh, this is my country. This is my place." They do not claim. Therefore they are free to move everywhere. So we have created a situation, Godless situation, therefore we are not in peace. So therefore, if you want peace, you must accept God, first of all. Suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jñatva mam santim rcchati [Bg. 5.29], this is the way of santi. You cannot create your santi in your own way. That is not possible. Just like the citizens, if they create their own way of santi, there cannot be peace. If they abide by the orders of the government, by the laws of the government, there will be peace. This is crude example. Similarly, if you do not accept God in the center as the Supreme Proprietor and the Supreme Enjoyer and the Supreme Friend, then there is no peace. This is the problem, I have given in the... What is that? You read it?

Devotee: Bhoktaram yajña-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram, suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jñatva mam santim rcchati [Bg. 5.29]. "Translation: The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, obtain peace from the pangs of material miseries."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Devotee: "The conditioned souls in the clutches of the illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. They do not know the formula for peace which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad-gita. The greatest peace formula is simply this. Lord Krsna is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Siva and Lord Brahma. In the Vedas the Supreme Lord is described as param isvaranam paramam mahesvaram. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey. But actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord. The Lord is the master of material nature and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature."

Prabhupada: That is the defect. Lord is the master of material nature, and we are conditioned by the material nature and still we are claiming, "I am God." Then?

Devotee: "Unless one understands these bare facts it is not possible to achieve peace in the world, either individually or collectively. This is the science of Krsna consciousness. The Lord Krsna is the Supreme Predominator and all living entities, including the great demigods, are His subordinates. One can attain perfect peace only in complete Krsna consciousness. In the Fifth Chapter is the practical explanation of Krsna consciousness, generally known as karma-yoga. The question of mental speculation as to how karma-yoga can bring liberation is answered herewith. To work in Krsna consciousness is to work with the complete knowledge that the Lord is the predominator. Such work is not different from transcendental knowledge. Direct Krsna consciousness is bhakti-yoga. and jñana-yoga is the path leading to bhakti-yoga. Krsna consciousness means to work in full knowledge of one's relationship with the Supreme Absolute and the perfection of this consciousness is full knowledge of Krsna or Supreme Personality of Godhead. A pure soul is the eternal servant of God as His fragmental part and parcel. He comes into contact with maya, illusion, due to the desire to lord it over maya. And that is the cause of his many sufferings. As long as he is in contact with matter he has to execute work in terms of material necessities. Krsna consciousness, however, brings one into spiritual life even while he is in the jurisdiction of matter, for it is an arousing of spiritual existence by practice in the material world. The more one is advanced, the more he is free from the clutches of matter. The Lord is not partial toward anyone. Everything depends on ones practical performance of duties in an effort to control the senses and conquer the influence of desire and anger. And attaining Krsna consciousness by controlling the above mentioned passions, one remains factually in the transcendental stage of brahma-nirvana. The eight-fold yoga mysticism is automatically practiced in Krsna consciousness because the ultimate purpose is served. There's a gradual process of elevation in the practice of yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and samadhi. But these only preface perfection by devotional service which alone can award peace to the human being. It is the highest perfection of life."

Prabhupada: Therefore in another place, it is stated, bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñanavan mam prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge. So this is... The Bhagavad-gita is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gita. But I request you only that try to... and understand Bhagavad-gita without any, our man-made interpretation. That will be my request.

Guest (2): What is one thing that I would like to...

Prabhupada: And we are always ready to help you in this.

Guest (2): Yes, thank you for this. What I wanted, that if you will be able to help us...

Prabhupada: Oh yes, oh yes.

Guest (2): ...in establishing, for example, that Gita meeting for some...

Prabhupada: Oh yes.

Guest (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Oh yes. Our Krsna consciousness movement is practically preaching the teachings of Bhagavad-gita as it is. And it is coming fruitful. It is coming very fruitful.

(conversation in Indonesian between guests)

Prabhupada: Please translate.

Guest (2): He said, as a matter of fact, this Hindu religion in Indonesia, actually, most of them practicing Bhagavad-gita. So Bhagavad-gita has been a part of their life, but as a matter of fact, because in practicing this Bhagavad-gita, not all (indistinct) has been practiced but only part by part which is very necessary for the adjustment with the condition in Indonesia. Some of them, of course, they can memorizing the verses for their benefit in their practices. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So we are always prepared to help you, anytime you require our help. (indistinct) ...try, we shall very much try to explain Bhagavad-gita as it is.

Guest (2): Thank you. (end)