Prajapati: ...last hundred and fifty years, one of the major problems of western theologians has been the relationship between reason and faith. They've been seeking to understand faith through reason but they have not been able to come to any terms of the relationship between their reasoning abilities and faith. So there's been like a leap, almost a rejection of any kind of...

Prabhupada: No. Just like we are walking on this street, so there is relation. This path is made for my walking. This is the relation with this road and myself. This is not made for... For animals also. But at least, we can take it is made for man. So for walking of man this road is made. So this is my relation. So in this way, everything you search out, you'll find out some relation. Is it not? Try to understand this first. Everything you take... Just like here is a microphone. There is my relation: I talk and it is recorded. So where is the difficulty to find out relationship with everything. Is there any difficulty?

Prajapati: They see one, Srila Prabhupada. The theologians perceive when they see that reason and faith are in two realms...

Prabhupada: This is reason, that everything we are using, there is a relationship. How can you deny it? If I have got relationship with everything, then I have got some relationship with God also. Try to understand this fact. Hmm? Have you got relationship with God or not? If we have got relationship with everything of God's creation, then why not with God? Answer, any one of you. Why you are silent?

Hrdayananda: Because you're right, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Hare Krsna. We must have some relationship with God.

Karandhara: Their point is that they can only have faith in God. Their reason tells them there is no God.

Prabhupada: There is no question of faith, it must be. Faith may be false. There must be. Because we have got relationship with everything, therefore ultimately everything is created by God.

Satsvarupa: That requires faith.

Prabhupada: It is not faith; it is fact. Faith may be wrong. Faith may be right or wrong, but fact is fact.

Karandhara: Well, when they say fact, they mean what they can perceive through their senses grossly.

Prabhupada: Yes, with senses, senses. That is... Our Krsna consciousness movement means that we have got relationship with God and senses, our senses. That is hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When the senses are engaged with the Supreme, in relationship, that is called bhakti. It is a question of senses. It is not vague. We apply everything, we go with our senses. Just like the leg, we go, take our legs to the temple. We use our tongue for glorifying, for eating the prasadam. Every senses. That is bhakti. It is not sensuous, but engaging the senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses.

Karandhara: But they say that's a faith.

Prabhupada: That's not faith, that's fact.

Karandhara: They say when we offer prasadam, it's just a faith that a God accepts it because you cannot see God eating.

Prabhupada: No, no, you cannot see, I see. I am not a fool like you. (laughter) I can see; therefore I offer. But you cannot see. So I have to open your eyes. You come to me. That is our propaganda. You are blind. You are suffering with cataract. I shall operate and you'll see also.

Yasomatinandana: Hare Krsna.

Hrdayananda: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: You don't see, that does not mean I don't see. Why do you accept like that? You may be fool rascal.

Karandhara: They want their team of scientists to see it.

Prabhupada: Scientist means another rascal. Big rascal. You are a rascal, and your bigger scientist, he's a big rascal. He's a big rascal. Samstutaḥ; purusaḥ; pasuḥ;. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sva-viḍ-varahosṭra-kharaiḥ; samstutaḥ; purusaḥ; pasuḥ; [SB 2.3.19]. You know this verse? Explain.

Hrdayananda: People who are like hogs, dogs, camels and asses glorify nondevotees.

Prabhupada: Yes, the, anyone nondevotee, he's a big camel, or big dog or big swine, like that. So these people who are praising them, they are also cats and dogs and swines, and the leader is also big swine. That's all. That is the difference. The so-called scientist, philosopher, is a big animal. That's all. But he is animal.

Karandhara: They say we're just dreamers.

Prabhupada: Dreamer?

Karandhara: Dreamers. That we make up fantasies about God and heaven, but actually,

Prabhupada: Why fancies? You have no brain to understand; therefore you say, "fancy"

Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses.

Prabhupada: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water-direct perception. Who has made it?

Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand."

Prabhupada: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the sastra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?

Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision.

Prabhupada: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.

Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say, "Still, we cannot... Even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see."

Prabhupada: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept.

Karandhara: Because what we're told may be wrong.

Prabhupada: May be wrong, that is your misfortune. But the process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process.

Svarupa Damodara: But they want experimental knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes, this is experimental.

Svarupa Damodara: They say, "It cannot be proved."

Prabhupada: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the... this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it.

Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say.

Prabhupada: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.

Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits.

Prabhupada: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.

Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."

Prabhupada: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.

Dr. Wolfe: We want to.

Prabhupada: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is the injunction.

Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.

Prabhupada: Not faith, practical.

Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.

Prabhupada: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.

Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?

Prabhupada: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Guru and Krsna. Krsna is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person.

Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bali Mardana: If you're not completely sincere, you might get someone else.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That's all. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Krsna is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He'll cheat you. He'll cheat you. First-class cheat, Krsna. But if you're actually sincere, then He'll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhag..., mattaḥ; smrtir jñanam apohanam ca: [Bg. 15.15] "Everything is coming from Me: smrtiḥ;, remembrance, and forgetfulness." If you are a cheater, Krsna will give you such intelligence, you'll forget Krsna forever.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, so it is so, "Birds of a feather flock together." The cheaters flock together.

Prabhupada: Yes. "Birds of the same feather flock together."

Karandhara: The thing is that our philosophy is as supportable as theirs, but because they are in control they have the dominance.

Prabhupada: Who has dominance?

Karandhara: The atheists.

Prabhupada: Atheists? (laughs) One kick of maya, he's finished. (laughter) All dominance. One this kick his dominance all finished, in one second. (laughter) No dominance. That is maya. They are under control, but thinking that "We are free." That is called maya, that is called maya. They are under full control but they are thinking, "We are free." That is maya. Mohini, mohinim sritaḥ;. What is that verse? Asurim mohinim?

Hrdayananda: Raksasim. Moghasa mogha,

Prabhupada: Prakrtim mohinim. Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jñana vicetasaḥ; [Bg. 9.12]. Because they are bewildered, all their hopes will be frustrated. Moghasaḥ;. Because they are rascals, asurim, atheists, all their hopes will be frustrated. This is stated. And that is being done. They are making so big, big plan; now it is going to be frustrated. Just see.

Svarupa Damodara: Still, they don't want to come to their senses.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na mam duskrtino muḍhaḥ; [Bg. 7.15]. And why they remain rascal? Because they are duskrtinaḥ;, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right?

Paramahamsa: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. Rascal means that... You know the story, that Kalidasa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." (laughter) "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. (laughter) He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on.

Svarupa Damodara: How do we bring them to their senses?

Prabhupada: This is Krsna consciousness. Be Krsna conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Krsna. That's all. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti, as soon as you surrender to Krsna, all this maya, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Krsna consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nama harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] This is the statement in Bhagavata. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram: [SB 7.5.30] "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punaḥ; punas carvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater—the same vagina. That's all.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they would say that that is braveness. they are brave in trying again and again.

Prabhupada: Yes, they must say. That is their rascaldom. One who goes, braveness, go to the Pacific Ocean and die, and go to hell. That is their braveness. That is their braveness. They are bravely going to hell. That's all. There is a story, palavarne boi nate(?). One man is chasing another man. So the man who is chased, he's asked, "Why you are fleeing away, fleeing away?" So, "Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not flee? Why shall not go? Am I afraid of you." He's fleeing out of fear, but still, he says, "Am I afraid of you? Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not? Why shall I stop?" This is the position. "Bravely I am going to hell. Why shall I stop? I am brave." This is going on.

Hrdayananda: It's crazy.

Prabhupada: Yes, crazy. This is stated:

pisaci paile yena mati-cchanna haya
maya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya

"Just like when a man becomes crazy, ghostly haunted, he speaks all nonsense, similarly, anyone who is under the influence of this material energy, he's crazy." He's crazy, talks all nonsense. That's all. [break]

mayar bose jaccho bhese'
Khaccho habuḍubu bhai

This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's... "Why you are being carried away by the waves of maya and you are becoming drowned and sometimes up, sometimes down? Why you are wasting your life in that way?"

jiva krsna das e biswas
korle to' ar duḥ;kho nai

"If you simply accept Krsna as your guidance, there is no more maya." But they'll not accept. Bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore one who accepts and surrenders unto Krsna after many, many births of such struggle for existence, he is actually wise. He's actually wise.

Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace?

Prabhupada: (laughs) Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee.

Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me."

Prabhupada: Yes, "Because you were not ready." (laughs) Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Krsna. Kona bhagyavan jiva. It is Krsna's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together.

Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, during the progress of evolutionary process, suppose if the individual soul falls down from the human platform, the individual soul falls down from the human platform to some other lower species, but in the course of again evolutionary process, at some stage along the path he'll come to Krsna consciousness. Is this...?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, that is the process. Evolution means to come to that end, Krsna consciousness. That is real evolution. If one misses the chance, then again falls down. But the natural progress is that.

Svarupa Damodara: But ultimately he will come to Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Yes, ultimately everyone will come to Krsna. Not Krsna consciousness, but Krsna. At the end of this world, devastation, they enter into the body of Krsna. They remain there.

Hrdayananda: That wouldn't be very good for a devotee.

Prabhupada: Huh? But they have no sense. These birds are feedies(?) or their bodily extension is so much. I think they're feedies(?).

Hrdayananda: They're what.

Svarupa Damodara: What? Very nice.

Prabhupada: Just see how they are experienced. They're not afraid of the ocean, although they are very small. They know how to save him. Mattaḥ; smrtir jñanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Krsna is there within the heart. They are giving, "Now get off." They immediately get off.

Hrdayananda: Boy. That's Visnu within their heart?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nice, very broad and clean. [break] ...can overflood the whole area, but no. "Up to this, no more, sir." Under whose order they are working? There must be some control.

Prajapati: They would say it's under the control of the moon. The moon controls the tides.

Prabhupada: Yes, the moon is controlled by whom?

Svarupa Damodara: They'll say, "By nature."

Prabhupada: Nature is controlled by whom?

Bali Mardana: Who is controlling the moon?

Prabhupada: That is answered in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ; suyate sa-caracaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Nature is controlled by Me." Therefore He is absolute controller. But He is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is absolute controller. Just like a, what is called? Magnetic stone?

Hrdayananda: Magnet?

Prabhupada: Magnet, it attracts.

Svarupa Damodara: Iron filings.

Prabhupada: Iron filings. But who has given this power to this magnetic stone? You cannot give.

Karandhara: They say, "It's just there by nature's arrangement."

Prabhupada: That is answered: "Nature is controlled by God."

Karandhara: Well, they prefer to leave nature as nondescript. When they say or designate as "nature," they prefer to leave that nondescript, nonspecific.

Prabhupada: Why? That means insufficient knowledge. They do not wish to describe it because your foolishness will be discovered.

Svarupa Damodara: They will say that "I can do that. That is done by nature."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Svarupa Damodara: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say...,

Prabhupada: Yes, but the iron is not manufactured by you. Neither the magnetic stone is manufactured by you. You take nature's product and utilize it. That is not your original creation. So what is credit to you? You can transform. That is in your hand. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. There are two things: material and spiritual, inferior energy and superior energy. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho. The living entities, they are superior energy. Why superior? They can take the materials and handle. Yayedam dharyate jagat. That is your superior energy. You can take the matters and combine it and make something else. That is the world, going on, matter and spirit. You have created your own body by your desire. So that you can do, but the materials, the body, you cannot create. That is not in your power.

Svarupa Damodara: They are trying to make it.

Prabhupada: Again "trying." It is already there. What is the use of your trying? The same thing. Already dog is barking, but one is trying to imitate. That's all. But people will go to see the imitation barking by purchasing ticket, and the real barking they'll neglect.

Svarupa Damodara: That is called, "new discovery."

Prabhupada: What is that new discovery? Barking is already there. What is new discovery? You are simply imitating barking, that's all. Barking is already there. What is discovery?

Svarupa Damodara: But that imitation is just new.

Prabhupada: No. Imitation is flattery. That's all. Imitation is the best way of flattery. That's all.

Karandhara: Actually they are proving our point because as persons they can imitate the Supreme person, but He made the original. If they were not persons or living entities, they couldn't imitate God's creation.

Prabhupada: Now, in your laboratory, by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, if you produce one ounce of water, what is your credit? Here is vast water already.

Svarupa Damodara: They say it was not done before in the lab.

Prabhupada: It is done already; otherwise where the water came? You do not know who did it. That is your ignorance.

Hrdayananda: So it just enviousness. They're just envious.

Prabhupada: Foolishness. Enviousness means one must be able. But they are not able. Simply foolishness.

Bali Mardana: They have created artificial gems, like...

Prabhupada: Just like you are a powerful man. I am a powerful man. I become envious. That is allowed. But I'm not powerful, I'm trying to imitate you, it is foolishness.

Svarupa Damodara: But they're saying that God didn't give me all the knowledge to do, how to make this water.

Prabhupada: Because He wanted you to remain a fool. He wanted. Because you are atheist, He wanted that you shall remain ever fool. That is God's business. Tan aham dvisataḥ; kruran ksipamy ajasram asubhan yonisu [Bg. 16.19]. These atheistic class, they remain always fools. Krsna gives him birth in such a family, in such a country, in such a posi..., that he remains fools. He remains always fool. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.

Yasomatinandana: Prabhupada, it's like the barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. It's like barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. Because the materialistic person, they claim to be expert of material science, and still, they want to give opinion on the spiritual science.

Prabhupada: No, no, they are not even expert of material science. They are expert in bluffing others things with jugglery of words. That's it.

Svarupa Damodara: No, they're saying that it was not done before, like telephones and these airplanes and these new discoveries.

Prabhupada: Well, there were better telephones. You do not know it. Just like Sañjaya is sitting with his master, Dhrtarasṭra, and he's relaying all the war affairs going on. He asked, kim akurvata sañjaya: [Bg. 1.1] "What did they do?" But he was sitting in the room. Where is your that telephone? It is television within the heart. He is seeing everything and relay. Bhagavad-gita, don't you see? Sañjaya uvaca, dhrtarasṭra uvaca. Dhrtarasṭra inquired, "Now, after meeting my sons and nephews, what they are doing?" And he's relaying, "Now Duryodhana is going to see Dronacarya. Dronacarya says like this. Bhismadeva says..." How does he say within the room? But you know that science?

Svarupa Damodara: But they will say that that was only possible...,

Prabhupada: He will say... They may say, but we are putting some fact. They may say all nonsense. We are not going to accept that.

Karandhara: Some of them say, "Well we've improved on nature. By making things like plastics and medicines, we've improved nature."

Prabhupada: All right. Very improvement. People were eating in silver plates, golden plates, and you have improved by plastic plates. (laughter) This rascaldom can be understood by another rascal. We are not going to do.

Hrdayananda: The plastic is a great problem because they can't get rid of it. Plastic has become a great problem because there is no way to dispose of it. So it just piles up and piles up, and they can't get rid of it.

Svarupa Damodara: In the future they are going to make plastic houses.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Transparent, you can see everything from the house.

Prabhupada: So what is the credit there?

Svarupa Damodara: They say that is an improvement.

Bali Mardana: But the plastic depends on oil.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They are going to hell and still they are thinking, "improvement." This is their foolishness. Foolish means that, that he's going to hell, but he's thinking, "improving." This is their...

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, wouldn't it be more sincere if these people, these scientists said, "We don't want to be taken out of this dream, that with our senses and with all the machines built on senses we will be able to make it"? But they don't want to be taken out of that dream.

Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness.

Dr. Wolfe: They don't want to admit it even.

Prabhupada: Why not? They have to admit Just like I gave you the example that you cannot see how many stars are there, but there are. If you say, "I don't see it, I don't believe it," that is your foolishness. That is your foolishness. You have to admit that your senses are limited. They are not perfect. That is the four defects of the conditioned soul: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he cheats, and his senses are imperfect.

Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again.

Prabhupada: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured.

Dr. Wolfe: But that is just what they do not want to accept.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. They do not take good advice. That is foolishness. Foolishness means murkhayopadeso hi prakipaya na santaye (?). Murkha, a rascal, if you give him good advice, he'll be angry. Just like a serpent, if you bring the serpent and if you tell the serpent, "My dear friend serpent, you live with me. I shall give you daily nice food, milk and banana. You'll be very pleased." So the result will be that his poison will increase. One day he'll say, "Phaḥ;! Phaḥ;!" (laughter) So these rascals are like that.

Svarupa Damodara: But they won't give up hopes. They are always hopeful.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Their hopes are being frustrated every moment; still, they are hoping. That is foolishness.

Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, I once was distributing some of your literature to a library, and the librarian said, "If these are five thousand years old, where is the proof of this? Do we have the copies that were written down five thousand years ago?"

Prabhupada: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof.

Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books.

Prabhupada: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam [SB 1.7.6]. Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. [break] ...accept Bhagavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished.

Svarupa Damodara: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break]

Prajapati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together.

Prabhupada: Yes, we say, body, same...

Karandhara: Body, mind and soul.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Gross matter, subtle matter, and the spirit.

Prajapati: That is whole man.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is whole creation. Why man? Everything. [break] Nature is not under his control; he is under nature's control.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they are foolish enough to try it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: But they are going to make houses on the moon now. On the surface of the moon they'll make houses in a few years.

Prabhupada: What is the benefit?

Karandhara: There's plenty of space on the earth. Why do they have to go to the moon?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Because it was not done before, so they want to show it to the people. They want to show the power of science.

Prabhupada: Power of science means imitating the barking of the dog. That's all. Dog is already barking, but they imitate and they become scientists. That's all. This is their power. How to imitate. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: But they will say, "We are more advanced." So they can imitate.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. But we are not so fools that we shall waste our time for imitation. We have got already real thing. Why shall I go to the imitation.

Karandhara: Their imitations are cheap. Like a sputnik, how does it compare with a planet?

Prabhupada: Not cheap! Their imitation... They are going to the... They're spending millions and millions. It is very dear, costly. First thing is imitation, and that imitation is very, very costly. Very expensive. So that is their foolishness. They'll be satisfied with the imitation which is very costly.

Svarupa Damodara: They work so hard. Srila Prabhupada, there is a nice incident. There is a scientist from France, Pasteur. When he was about to be married, the same day, he forgot his own marriage day because he was working in his laboratory, doing experiments. So one of his friends reminded him, "Oh, Pasteur, your marriage day is today so you come out from the lab and you have to go there." Then he went out and got married,

Prabhupada: There is a Bengali proverb, yanra loke bie naya, para lokera ghumnaya: (?) "The man who is to be married, he has forgotten, and the neighbors, they are not sleeping, 'Oh, that man will be married. That man will be married.' " But he has forgotten.

Svarupa Damodara: So people are saying that "See how sincerely he's working. Take his example."

Prabhupada: Yes. So who is not sincerely working? He's working for some money. That's all. So everyone is working for money. What is the difference? If he's not paid for that, he'll not work. Just like a dog is working for the master, for the bread. That's all. So he's working not for himself, not for others, but for his money. Or some ambition. Prestige. That's right. [break] ...where? On the beach you are seeing?

Svarupa Damodara: About ten miles from here.

Prabhupada: In Bombay also, therefore it is two miles, three miles from Juhu. [break]

Prajapati: ...Srila Prabhupada, that's a best seller called, "I'm OK, You're OK," and the purport of this book is that if we simply pat each other on the back and tell each other how nice each other are, everything will be all right.

Prabhupada: Yes, mutual praising society, mutual praising society.

Karandhara: Mutual admiration society.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, in the twenties there was a doctor in Switzerland, Couet(?), who had the same method. "I'm better and better every day," and he had thousands of people who came there and nothing was heard of him ten years later.

Bali Mardana: Till he died.

Prabhupada: "Better, better, better, I am going to die better very soon." (laughter) Therefore Krsna has shown that "Why you are thinking, 'better,' the death is before you." Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanu... [Bg. 13.9], that is real knowledge. Real knowledge means, "How I am better?" The death is there. [break] That is real knowledge. I am going to die, I cannot stop it. You see. That is real knowledge. And if somebody thinks that I am better, although I am going to die, then he's a foolish. Better means you stop your death. [break] (end)