Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan
Arlington Texas At Their Home
11 Sep

Prabhupada: Our philosophy is

ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭha
svanusá¹­hitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
[SB 1.2.13]

You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Krsna. Krsna wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Panḍavas for right cause. And Krsna came-paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons. So by Krsna's will sometimes all the demons, they come together and fight with one another and they are killed. So battle of Kuruksetra was such a plan to bring all the demons together and engage them in fighting and kill one another. Just like in our school days, unruly boys, one boy will be asked to catch the other boy by the ear and the same boy will be asked to catch this boy by the ear and they are pulling each other. Competition of pulling the ears. So Arjuna was fighter and he helped Krsna in this fighting activities and thus he became a great devotee. Krsna certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My dear, very dear friend and devotee." So it is not that one becomes a devotee simply by renouncing the world and coloring the dress. But in any dress, in any capacity, one can satisfy Krsna if His cause is served. If you apply your engineering talent in Krsna's service. Suppose we have to construct a nice temple of Krsna. So if you apply your talent to engineering just like in India we have got very wonderful temples, so then your engineering becomes perfect. Similarly, if some business is done, if you apply your business administrative talent... Just like we are doing some business, Spiritual Sky. That is small business but they are managing very nicely. This boy, Svarupa Damodara, he is a great scientist, doctor in chemistry. He is trying to explain Krsna through chemistry. Similarly, you can try to serve Krsna through engineering. You can serve Krsna by business administration. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Everyone can serve by his own work." Krsna is not stereotyped. Everything is Krsna. So every department can be utilized for Krsna's satisfaction. And if Krsna is satisfied, then your talent in the particular department of knowledge is perfect. Then it attains perfection. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. Samsiddhi means perfection. And what is that perfection? That Krsna will be pleased: "Yes, you are very good engineer." "You are very good business administrator." "You are very good chemist." So this is our philosophy, Krsna consciousness. We do not say, "This is bad. This is good." Everything is good, provided it is utilized for Krsna's service. This is our philosophy. So as Krsna is all-pervading, our philosophy is also all-embracing. But as soon as one comes to Krsna consciousness platform, he must be free from sinful activities. (aside) Aiye. (Hindi) Krsna is... (aside) Jaya. Krsna is pure, apapa-viddham. So we must be pure to approach Krsna. Just like if we want to enter fire we must be also highly tempered, almost like fire, same degree. Apapa-viddham. Pavitram paramam bhavan. So we should give up sinful activities and apply our energy for Krsna's service. Then our life is perfect. That we are preaching. You are from which province?

Guest (1): Jodhpur, Rajasthan.

Prabhupada: Jodhpur, Rajasthan. She is your wife? You are from also Rajasthan?

Woman: Jodhpur.

Prabhupada: Jodhpur? Same place. We had been in Jaipur. Great function we had. (Hindi) In whatever profession you are, you try to satisfy Krsna by your professional talent. Then your... Bhagavan is not stereotyped, that Bhagavan becomes... Just like Bhisma. He was great devotee, and in the battlefield of Kuruksetra Bhisma was piercing the body of Krsna by arrows and Krsna was feeling very nice. So it is not that Krsna is satisfied simply by throwing rose flower. Sometimes a devotee throws arrow and Krsna becomes satisfied. So we can satisfy Krsna in so many ways. Krsna is varied. He is not stereotyped. But we must know the art how to satisfy Krsna. Then our life is successful.

Guest (1): How can we realize Krsna is satisfied?

Prabhupada: Yes, you'll realize when you satisfy actually. You have to take direction. Just like you are engineer or business administrator. You learn the art from a teacher, and then you can know how you are satisfying your master. Just like if you eat, then you can understand that "how we are being satisfied." You haven't got to ask anybody, "Am I satisfied?" If you are eating, then you'll be satisfied. Similarly, if you serve Krsna according to the superior direction, then you'll understand that Krsna is satisfied. First of all you have to learn how to satisfy, and then, reciprocally, you'll be aware that Krsna is satisfied with you by the result.

Guest (2): Swamiji, Krsna says in Gita that "Do your duty without, unmindful of result." But when we do our duties, or so-called normal karmas, we are always aware of the result. Like when you do a job you're aware that you're getting a check every two weeks and so on. Similarly, even the small things in our life, we are always first looking for the result as a matter of, I mean, these worldly people we are.

Prabhupada: The result is... Here there is no check. Just like these boys, these American boys, European boys. They have seen enough checks and they can pay enough checks. But they are not after checks. They are after Krsna's service.

Guest (2): Does it mean that we should leave the work and we should not work and...

Prabhupada: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Krsna. That is called "Don't see to the result." Krpana, krpanaḥ; phala-hetavaḥ;. Krpana. There are two classes of men. One is krpana, and one is brahmana. Krpana, they want his sense satisfaction, and brahmana, they want Krsna's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there but when you want your satisfaction, that is krpana. Krpanaḥ; phala-hetavaḥ;. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Krsna's senses, then you become brahmana or Vaisnava. The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy, yourself, then you are krpana. And if the result is enjoyed by Krsna, then you are brahmana. Result must be there. Any work you do, there must be some result, and that is also described in the... Yajñarthat karma. Yajña means Visnu. For His sake one should work. Yajñarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanaḥ; [Bg. 3.9]. If you work not for yajña, for your sense gratification, then you become bound up by the result of the karma, good or bad. So if we work for Krsna, if the result is given to Krsna, that is our perfection. Otherwise, krpanaḥ; phala-hetavaḥ;—we remain krpana.

Guest (2): No, that is what my question is, how to do that. I mean, how in our day to day life...

Prabhupada: That I have explained. Just like Arjuna, who was a fighter, warrior, means he fought for Krsna. For himself, he was hesitating. He put all these questions that "If I kill my brothers, then their wives will be widow, and they will be prostitutes and there will be varna-sankara, and then there will be no pinḍa-dana and then the whole nation will go to hell," in this way, as he could think. But he was not thinking in terms of Krsna. He was thinking in terms of his own benefit, "whether I shall go to hell or heaven." That was his contemplation. Therefore he was taught Bhagavad-gita. And after understanding Bhagavad-gita he agreed to Krsna's proposal. Karisye vacanam tava nasṭo mohaḥ; smrtir labdha: [Bg. 18.73] "Now my illusion is gone. I have got my real consciousness, so I shall fight." So the fighting was Krsna consciousness. And when he was trying to become nonviolent, very benevolent to the family, he was chastised by Krsna. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajña-vadam: [Bg. 2.11] "You are talking like a very learned man but you are fool." So this is our position. We may talk very learned, scholarly, but if we have no Krsna consciousness, then we are subjected to the chastisement. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajña-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. So this is the position. So nothing is bad if it is engaged for the service of Krsna. Otherwise, however good it may be in the estimation of material conception, it is the cause of bondage, good or bad. It doesn't matter. So you have to learn the art, how to satisfy Krsna. That art you have to learn. Then your life is perfect.

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jñanam
jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;
[Bg. 4.34]

tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-paniḥ; srotriyam brahma-nisṭham
[MU 1.2.12]

So you have to learn the art from a person who is actually engaged in the service of satisfying Krsna. Then, if you act accordingly, then your life is successful.

Guest (2): You are saying that man shouldn't have bondage?

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is under bondage, good or bad.

Guest (2): But is good bondage good?

Prabhupada: Good bondage, but it is bondage, after all. If you are prisoner, first-class prisoner or third-class prisoner, you are prisoner.

Guest (2): But doesn't bondage give the incentive to live?

Prabhupada: No, bondage gives bondage. If you do not know how to get out of the bondage, then you will be more and more in bondage.

Guest (2): But if you don't have any bondage, then...

Prabhupada: No, everyone is in bondage.

Guest (2): No, I mean, suppose idealistically...

Prabhupada: What idealistic?

Guest (2): Hypothetical case that...

Prabhupada: No, nothing hypothetical. Your bondage... Bondage means that birth, death, old age and disease. This is bondage. We are all living entities, part and parcel of God. We are spirit soul. So this is not our business, birth, death, old age and disease. So bondage means so long you'll get this material body you are under this bondage: birth, death, old age, and disease. Because you are very rich man, getting good salary, it does not mean that you will not die, or disease will not attack you. This is bondage. First of all try to understand what is bondage. Bondage and freedom. Bondage means to be subjected to the condition of this material body. That is called bondage. The body may be elephant's body or tiger's body or Brahma's body or ant's body, but that is bondage. Because as soon as you get a material body you are under this bondage of birth, death, old age and disease. So your problem is how to get out of this bondage, not that to accept the bondage—just like I am bound up by iron shackles—"Let me be bound up by golden shackles." So that is bondage. The people do not know. They are satisfied when they are bound up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance. He feels satisfied when he is locked up with golden shackles. That is called ignorance.

Guest (2): Nonmaterial bondage.

Prabhupada: Yes. Bondage means material. In spiritual life there is no bondage.

Guest (2): How about love between people? Just like this... Is that bondage also?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is also bondage. Suppose you love your countrymen. So you want to remain a faithful national, so you will get your birth again in this country or that country, as you like. (doorbell rings) So either you get your birth in India or in America, it doesn't matter. You are bound up by the laws of nature. It is not that Americans do not die, only Indians die. Everyone dies. So that is also bondage.

Guest (1): How about love towards relatives? They say, "Love your parents," or "Love your wife and children." Isn't that also bondage?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): Does that mean you should not love your parents?

Prabhupada: No, there is no love in the material world. You love somebody with some personal interest. So that is not love. Everyone loves. To be frank enough, a wife loves husband so long he is nicely earning, and the husband loves the wife so long she is beautiful. That's all. This is the love. It is not love. It is lust. Love is different thing.

Guest (1): How about serving the parents?

Prabhupada: First of all you try to understand one point. Don't jump like that. The same thing is applicable to parents and everything. There is no love in this world. That is illusion.

Guest (2): Is it like service to parents without expecting anything from them because they have raised you, they have...?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is your duty.

Guest (2): Yes, duty.

Prabhupada: That's your duty. Just like to... I do not say that don't love your wife and don't love your parents. But I am just explaining the real situation.

Guest (2): I may be forgiven for diverting from the topic here. In Twelfth Chapter when Lord says, mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutaḥ; sanatanaḥ;... [Bg. 15.7].

Prabhupada: That is Fifteenth Chapter.

Guest (2): Fifteenth, yes. What is the difference between the jiva and soul? Is it good to learn the differences and understand the depth of these things?

Prabhupada: Yes. If you do not learn, then you are darkness. Just like mamaivamso. Just like your finger is the part of your body, similarly, you are part of the body of Krsna. Now you have to learn. If you are part, just like finger is the part of my body... What is the duty of the finger?

Guest (2): To serve body.

Prabhupada: That's all. The finger, so long it is serving my body like this, like this, it is in real condition, real, healthy condition. And if it is painful—it cannot serve—then it is not in healthy condition. So therefore any living entity who is not serving Krsna, he is not in healthy condition. He is in maya. Anyone who is not in Krsna's service, he is in maya. That is, Krsna says,

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutaḥ; sanatanaḥ;
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]

He is struggling hard within this material nature because he is not serving Krsna. Therefore his punishment is to struggle hard in different species of life. There are 8,400,000 species of life, and he is transmigrating but becoming happy this way or that way, that way, that way. Just like you have come to America to become happy. Is it not? Otherwise why you left? Similarly, we are transmigrating from one country to another, one planet to another, one body to another, searching after happy, happiness. That is struggle for existence. So Krsna says, "They are My part and parcel. Instead of serving Me, they are serving their mind and senses." Manaḥ;-sasṭhanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. So long we serve our senses and mind we remain in this material world, prakrti-sthani. And as soon as we revive our real consciousness, Krsna consciousness—we serve Krsna—that is liberation. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the ultimate instruction. So instead of serving the senses, kamadinam kati na katidha, just like serving the country, serving the family, something, the wife, and serving the husband, serving the father—all the services are different phases of kama. Kamadinam kati na katidha palita durnidesaḥ;. So at the present moment we are serving our senses. When the sense service will be transferred to Krsna, that is liberation. And this is bondage.

Guest (2): Just now you said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This saranam vraja, could you just enlighten...

Prabhupada: Saranam vraja—you just surrender. Whatever you say...

Guest (2): In daily life, I mean, like our practical life, how saranagati could be...?

Prabhupada: Yes, saranagati. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was hesitating to fight but when he surrendered to Krsna he fought.

Guest (2): He was lucky. Lord Krsna was right there with him.

Prabhupada: So Lord Krsna's instruction is there. That is Lord Krsna. There is no difference between Lord Krsna and His instruction. He is absolute. Just like these boys. They are serving Krsna. Lord Krsna is not present. Lord Krsna is present but you do not know how He is present. Lord Krsna is present by His name, Hare Krsna. This Krsna and the person Krsna is not different. That you do not know. You are thinking Krsna is gone, but Krsna is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute. Krsna is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Krsna. Krsna is always present. Premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ; sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Those who are saintly person, they are seeing twenty-four hours, every minute, Krsna. Hrdayesu vilokayanti. How? Premañjana-cchurita. When there is love of Krsna. Just like ordinarily, if you love somebody, you will find him everywhere. So you have to develop your love for Krsna; then Krsna will be seen. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ;. Just like sun. You cannot see sun at night, but when sun becomes revealed before you you can see sun and yourself and the whole world. Similarly, when Krsna will reveal, being pleased with your service and love, you will see Krsna, you will see yourself, you will see the whole world. So simply you have to... Just like one man is suffering from cataract. So by surgical operation make the eyes free from the cataract disease—he will see everything. Similarly, the cataract of your present eyes, material eyes, can be, I mean to say, relieved by Krsna prema. Then you will see Krsna. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, prema pum-artho mahan. If anything has to be achieved within this world, that is Krsna prema. That we should engage our life, how to achieve Krsna prema. But we are not interested in Krsna prema. So that is illusion. Human life is meant for achieving that stage, Krsna prema, love of Krsna. Then life is successful.

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhoksaje
ahaituky apratihata
yayatma suprasidati
[SB 1.2.6]

That is wanted. Therefore this Krsna consciousness movement is meant for invoking the dormant love for Krsna that is there in everyone. Just like four or five years ago these boys, they did not know what is Krsna. And now their countrymen is surprised: "How these boys are after Krsna, mad after Krsna?" That means love of Krsna was there. It has simply be invoked. In the Caitanya-caritamrta,

nitya-siddha krsna prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya
[Cc. madhya 22.107]

The Krsna prema, love of Krsna, is within everyone. That love is being expressed in so many ways. Actually that is love for Krsna. So when one invokes that love in proper condition, then he loves Krsna and loves everyone. Here the so-called love is for some purpose. Just like we are... I have come to this country. My purpose is not to get some money from them. Because I think, "My Guru Maharaja ordered that 'You go to the Western countries,' " so I have come to the Western countries to give them Krsna. And because they, everyone has Krsna prema, they are accepting it. You must be favorable. But if you don't accept, it is impossible to give you. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You do." Krsna can force him but He is not forcing. Krsna is asking Arjuna, "Whatever..." Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63], "Whatever you like, you can do." He does not force anyone because the living entity, part and parcel of God, he has got independence. So Krsna does not touch the independence of the living entity. He advises, "You do this. If you do this, then you will be saved." But if you do not do this, then Krsna is not responsible. You are responsible. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you do that—you take Krsna's advice—then you are saved. But if you do not that, then you take your own responsibility. You travel in this cycle of birth and death and wander in different species of life, different planets. So that is your responsibility. Krsna comes down to instruct you this philosophy, this fact. Now it is up to you to accept or not to ac... You have got the independence. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucaḥ; [Bg. 18.66]. This is the instruction of Krsna. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvataḥ;, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti... [Bg. 4.9]. Mam upetya punar janma duḥ;khalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti mahatmanaḥ; samsiddhim paramam gataḥ; [Bg. 8.15]. That is the highest perfection; you go back to Krsna. If you don't go, that is your choice.

Guest (2): What is this greatness, that, to know the divinity when Lord Krsna says that "Those who know that I am divine and..." Janma karma ca me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. How... What is the real meaning of knowing it, I mean. I read it ten times...

Prabhupada: That is also: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You find out somebody who can instruct you. But you find out-pranipata. You surrender, not with challenge. And seva. And then you ask him and you know it. But if you have no pranipata, no seva, simply challenging spirit, you'll never know it. That is not the process. If you want to know, then you must find out somebody where you can surrender. And you must... Surrender means you must render service to him, and then you can ask him and he'll give you. Upadeksyanti te jñanam jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;. That is the process. If you are serious to know, then you find out somebody where you can surrender. Because Krsna also wants surrender, so you have to surrender to His representative. Then you will know.

Guest (2): And can one not directly surrender to Krsna through his own feelings and heart and...?

Prabhupada: No. No, that is not the process. Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches, gopi-bhartuḥ; pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. He wants to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna. That is the process. If you want to know Krsna directly it is not possible. Otherwise why Krsna says, tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]? And how you can approach Krsna?

Guest (2): Chanting His names, surrendering to Him, feeling love for Him, doing service. Is that not or would that not take one person to...?

Prabhupada: No, that is not the way. Krsna says, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ; [Bg. 4.2]. You have to accept the parampara, disciplic succession. That is a challenge, that "I don't want to surrender anyone."

Guest (2): No, not challenge... I'm not saying... I mean, I'm not...

Prabhupada: No, it is not possible. Krsna accepted Himself a guru. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted a guru. They are God Himself. So how you can accept: "I can approach Krsna without guru"? Guru-krsna-krpa. Krsna... When actually you want Krsna seriously—you do not know who is guru—then Krsna will give you a guru. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He was advised by his mother that "If you go to the forest you can see God." So he went there. But when he was very serious, then Krsna sent him Narada Muni. So if you are actually serious about Krsna, then Krsna will send you some of His representative and he will take charge of you. That is the process. If you do not find a guru, that means Krsna is not yet pleased, either you are not serious. Just like when you become serious of studying any subject matter, you find out some college, some institution. You cannot purchase the books and read at home and become expert engineer, expert, no. That is not the process. Therefore the Vedic knowledge is called sruti. Srotriyam brahma-nisṭham. Tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet, srotriyam brahma-nisṭham [MU 1.2.12]. So we have to hear by parampara system. You attend the lectures of a professor because he has heard. He has listened the same instruction from his professor. You don't go to a professor who has never gone to school and college. Do you go there? So this knowledge... As material knowledge is received by parampara, similarly, spiritual knowledge is received also by parampara. Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ; [Bg. 4.2]. By parampara system. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nasṭaḥ; parantapa: "Because the parampara was lost, therefore the science was lost. Therefore I shall again say the same system to you." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam hy etad uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "I am trying to speak to you because you are My devotee. You are very dear friend." So similarly, one has to become a dear friend of Krsna and devotee of Krsna before he can understand what Krsna says. You see? There are so many Bhagavad-gita editions in all the countries. So many big, big scholars presented Bhagavad-gita. There was not a single person converted to become Krsna conscious. Do you agree to this point? Before this movement not a single person... Now there hundreds and thousands are coming because the Bhagavad-gita is presented as it is, not with adulteration. Now our Bhagavad-gita As It Is... Have you brought book?

Pradyumna: No.

Prabhupada: This is published by Macmillan. It is eleven hundred pages. They printed in July fifty thousand copies. That is finished. Now they are going to print second edition. Since 1968 they are publishing our Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and every year they are getting one edition. From the beginning... I think this is the fifth or sixth edition and their business manager, trades manager's report is that this Bhagavad-gita is increasing sale, others' dwindling, because it is presented as it is. We present Krsna as Krsna. Krsna says, "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." We present Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." We teach people, "You surrender to Krsna." Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We say, "You become Krsna bhakta. You offer worship to Krsna." We don't change anything. And therefore people are accepting. Adulteration, how long it will go on? You know very well. You are from Delhi. There is a Punjabi halwai (?), in the Chowry Bazaar. You know that?

Guest (4): No, I have heard about it.

Prabhupada: Because he sells, I mean to say, confectionery made of pure ghee you'll find always hundreds of customers waiting. And there are many dalda ghee shop not so crowded. Some cheap men are going there. So anything you present pure, there will be automatic customer. And that is being proved. We are presenting Krsna as He is, and He is being accepted everywhere, all over the world. But as soon as you make adulteration Krsna, manufacture your concoction—"Krsna means this, Kuruksetra means this," all nonsense talk—immediately lost. Why should we do that, adulteration? There is no business adulterating. So many scholars, so many swamis, they have simply presented adulterated. Just like even Mahatma Gandhi says, "The Kuruksetra means this body." And where he got this meaning? Where is the dictionary meaning? You should speak something which must be authorized. Where is the dictionary where Kuruksetra is explained as this body? And Kuruksetra station is still existing. People are going to Kuruksetra for religious performances. Kuru-ksetre dharma-ksetre. Why should I interpret Kuruksetra, "the body"? This is going on. So that will not be effective. It may be effective, a few person, somebody's admirer. But it will not go far above that. But if you present as it is, it will be accepted by any real inquirer.

Guest (2): Gita Press, Gorakhpur, has those publications. I have one of them.

Prabhupada: Yes. Gita Press has got different versions also.

Guest (2): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Gita Press also tried to preach Gita since forty, forty years. But Bhagavad-gita was, published by Gita Press, was not in the Western countries. And we published this Bhagavad-gita As It Is in 1968. It is now all over the world. And the Macmillan Company, the biggest publisher of the world, they are taking interest. Not only this book. For this book they are taking gradually all our books. So our point is: present Krsna as it is. That is real Indian culture. Don't present Krsna adulterated. Your country will be glorified. The whole world will accept that India has got something to give. You are simply now beggar. So I have come to this country not to beg, but to give. That is my mission. And they are feeling, "Yes, we are getting something substantial."

Guest (3): There is one question which many people have asked. You don't have to answer them but sometimes they say, "Why is it that Hare Krsna movement is so popular in this country, has so many centers, and not that many centers in India where Lord Krsna...?"

Prabhupada: He does not know. He is a foolish man. In India there are millions of centers. He does not know that. Simply if you go to Vrndavana you'll find five thousand temples. He does not know. He speaks nonsense. He speaks nonsense. The man who has spoken like that, he is a nonsense. He does not know what is the condition of India. Mass India, every person knows Krsna. Every person is a temple of Krsna. He does not know. He has spoken nonsense.

Guest (3): He has seen the book and from where the centers are listed, that's all. He is...

Prabhupada: No, we have got center in Bombay. No, I have... My personal centers are not there. But just like Gita Press. They are also publishing Bhagavad-gita, millions of copies every month, and that is being distributed in India. So why does he say, "Indians, they do not know"? That is foolishness. Every Indian knows what is Krsna.

Guest (2): You're talking about the center, Hare Krsna.

Guest (3): Yeah, they look at this point of view because they think if that's the only movement which he associated with Lord Krsna, but Lord Krsna is almost in every home in India.

Prabhupada: Yes. Janmasá¹­ami, Krsna's birthday, is observed by every Indian still, although artificially they are being checked not to take to Krsna. Krsna is presented by government in so many bad way. You see? In government there is a paper. It is called "Indian Culture," something. In that paper Krsna is depicted as a bil boy. (?)

Guest (3): What?

Prabhupada: Bil boy means just like black, Negro. And He is worshiped. Such a rascal. Krsna is worshiped, and for Krsna worship so many Vedic literature, and government is presenting Him as bil boy. Just see what kind of government we have got.

Guest (2): Is that right? It is surprise to me.

Prabhupada: Yes. You'll find they have got paper, "Indian Culture," or... Yes. One Mr. Ananda, he has written that nonsense article.

Guest (3): Of course, I have seen before 1963, before I came to this country.

Prabhupada: So government is presenting Krsna like that. Dr. Radhakrishnan has spoken like that. Yes. What he has spoken?

Syamasundara: Krsna was an aboriginal chief, tribal chief.

Prabhupada: Such poor fund of knowledge, he is advertised as great scholar. He has no knowledge, and he writes Bhagavad-gita. And now he is... For this offense he is now dead body. He cannot recognize any man, like this. He cannot say, "I am hungry." His daughter is always attending, giving some food, sitting idly. Just... What is the month?

Syamasundara: In Madras? We were there in February.

Prabhupada: Yes. February. Yes. I was there. I saw him. I saw Mr. Raja Gopala Acarya with him. So he is a dead body, living dead body.

Guest (2): Raja Gopala Acarya has also written a lot of books.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not lot of. Some books he has written. So our request is to the Indians especially that we have got something to give to the world. Simply don't beg. Give something. Then you will be honored. You cannot compete with them by technology, by learning here. That is not possible. If you can give them something, that is Krsna consciousness.

Guest (2): How far is samskara powerful like...?

Prabhupada: Well, samskara you can change in a second. Samskara may be powerful. (indistinct) Krsna assures you, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. He will give you protection. Samskara means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-papebhyo. Then what is the meaning of samskara? You can change your samskara immediately by surrendering to Krsna. Why you are so much concerned with samskara? He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam... [Bg. 18.66], aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksa... The samskara as effects of sinful activities, that is troublesome. So He gives you protection. Ma sucaḥ;, "Don't worry." Why don't you take this? You don't want to change your samskara, and who can help you? That is a different thing. You don't want to change. Otherwise Krsna is ready to give you all help. How their samskara is changed? From the very beginning of their life they are addicted to these principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. How they have changed? They don't touch it. How it has become possible?

Guest (2): I believe they were great yogis in their past lives.

Prabhupada: And why you not?

Guest (2): I don't know that.

Prabhupada: Because you don't surrender. That is the fact. If you surrender, you become also great yogi.

yoginam api sarvesam
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ;
[Bg. 6.47]

He is first-class yogi who is always thinking of Krsna, topmost yogi. So you think of Krsna always; you'll become topmost yogi.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Don't be sorry. Indians, generally they say, "Oh, we know everything about Krsna. What we have to learn?" Yes. When they go to some Indian, they say like that. What do they say?

Syamasundara: "We know all these things."

Guest (2): I don't say I know everything.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that Madrasi gentleman?

Svarupa Damodara: Chiwari? Dr. Chiwari?

Prabhupada: Yes. In your...

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, Krishnamurti.

Prabhupada: Ah. They think, "Oh, what we have to learn from them about Krsna? We are all-knowing." (Hindi) And you were speaking, some of your Madras colleagues. They come here and immediately they learn how to eat meat. (Hindi)

Svarupa Damodara: Before they came they were not eating meat, but when they come here they normally, they buy it, they cook it, and they not only just... They buy, themselves, and they do everything.

Prabhupada: London... (Hindi) Practically cent percent Indians, they eat meat.

Guest (4): Swamiji, what is the role of meat-eating in...

Prabhupada: Meat-eater means sinners. He cannot understand Krsna.

Guest (4): Well, where is it...?

Prabhupada: It is said in the sastra, striyaḥ; suna panam dyutam yatradharmas catur-vidhaḥ;: "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, striyaḥ;; suna, the animal slaughter; panam, intoxication; dyutam, gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. So you have to break these pillars of sinful life. Then you can understand Krsna. They have broken. On my word they have broken the first four pillars and therefore they are advanced.

Guest (4): I have had several people ask my why I don't eat meat and why Indians, some Indians don't eat meat. And I could not give them a convincing answer.

Prabhupada: But that is there. It is stated in the sastra. These are four sinful activities. [break] ...upadeksyanti tad jñanam jñaninas tattva-darsinaḥ;. You have to take knowledge from tattva-darsi, jñani, not from some people, nonsense. What is the value of some people?

Guest (5): How to identify a true learned man?

Prabhupada: That you have to become a learned man. If you are a fool, how you can understand who is learned man? You have to become a learned man. Is it not? Otherwise you will be cheated. Anyone will come—"I am learned man. I am God"—and you will be cheated, if you do not know what is God, what is learned man. So first of all you have to become learned man. Then you will understand who is learned man.

Guest (2): But to become learned, you go to so-called learned people, and you go to so-called learned people. How do you know that those so-called learned are...

Prabhupada: That has spoiled our Indian culture. That has spoiled our Indian culture. Everyone become learned man; everyone become a spiritualist. That's another... So best thing is to... Why don't you accept Krsna as the most learned man? That will save you. Everyone accepts Him, all the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Sankaracarya, Lord Caitanya. So why don't you accept Krsna? Why you're searching after learned man? Here is the best learned man. Simple truth. If you simply argue, that is a different thing. But if you want really learned man, Krsna is here. Take Krsna as He is; then you learn everything. So I shall go now. What is the time?

Satsvarupa: It's eight-thirty now.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...fruits... Just accept Krsna, the most learned man. Follow His teaching. Your life is perfect. And practically you see. They have accepted Krsna the supreme teacher, and how their life is becoming perfect. (Hindi) Krsna ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Krsna consciousness. Krsna ye bhaje se baḍa catura. As Krsna is very cunning, intelligent, so His devotee is also very cunning and intelligent. Krsna ye bhaje se baḍa catura. Krsna also says, bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births' struggling, when he actually becomes wise, jñanavan," mam prapadyate, "he surrenders to Me." Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhaḥ;: [Bg. 7.19] "That mahatma is very rare to be found." Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritaḥ;, bhajanty ananya-manaso jñatva bhutadim avyayam [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahatma. This is description of mahatma.

Guest (2): Why... When you said ananya, is there a conflict between a devotee of Lord Krsna when he chants Lord Rama's name...?

Prabhupada: Rama and Krsna, the same. Rama and Krsna, the same. Krsna means Visnu-tattva. So Visnu-tattva has many forms. So any Visnu form will do.

ramadi-murtisu kala niyamena tisá¹­han
nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu
krsnaḥ; svayam samabhavat paramaḥ; puman yo
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.39]

Ramadi-murtisu. He has got different forms, Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha, many other forms, Govinda, Visnu, Narayana. So ramadi-murtisu kala niyamena tisṭhan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu, krsnaḥ; svayam [Bs. 5.39]. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. Ete camsa-kalaḥ; pumsaḥ; krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Isvaraḥ; paramaḥ; krsnaḥ; sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ; [Bs. 5.1]. These are the Vedic statements. And Krsna also said, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg. 7.7]. maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani na caham tesv avasthitaḥ; [Bg. 9.4]. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Krsna. So therefore one who surrenders to Krsna, he is the most perfect man, even without knowing Krsna. Just like gopis. They did not know Krsna, whether He is God or some... Simply loved Krsna: "Krsna is very beautiful." That's all. So their perfection is the highest. They did not try to understand what Krsna, what is Vedanta, what is Bhagavad-gita. At that time Bhagavad-gita was not spoken even. Krsna was at that time a boy. But they loved Krsna with their heart and soul. Krsna was their everything. And therefore their position is the topmost. So somehow or other, we have to surrender to Krsna. Then our life is successful. Otherwise not. So we do it knowingly or unknowingly; the effect is the same. Fire you touch knowingly or unknowingly; it will act. It is not that if a child touches fire without knowing, knowledge, it is not that fire will not burn. And similarly... That is stated in the Bhagavata. Kamat krodhad bhayat. Some way or other, come to Krsna. Just like gopis came to Krsna-kamat. Krsna was very beautiful, so they wanted to associate with Krsna. Bhayat, Kamsa and Sisupala, they were afraid of Krsna, but still, they became Krsna conscious, always thinking of Krsna. Bhayat. Krodhat. Sisupala, krodhat. He was very much envious of Krsna. Putana-raksasi, she wanted to kill Krsna. So if kamat-krodhad-bhayat coming to Krsna, they get perfection, what to speak of loving Krsna? What is their position? So some way or other, you come to Krsna. That is our mission. Yena tena prakarena manaḥ; krsna nivesayet. Somehow or other, just attach your mind to Krsna; your life is perfect. And what is the objection? Krsna is most beautiful, Krsna is most opulent, Krsna is more powerful, Krsna giving you assurance, "I give you protection," and still, if you don't take to Krsna it is misfortune, simply misfortune. Unfortunate. So you remain. If you want to remain unfortunate, who can help you? So instead of arguing, you just surrender to Krsna and make your life successful. That's it. That is wanted. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama... Now, these foreigners, they are practiced, always chanting Krsna. You cannot do that? Why? Let me know why. You are all young boys; they are also young. They have got more facilities for sense enjoyment than yours. Why don't you take to it? So it is better late than never. Take to it. Take interest in Krsna consciousness movement. You are all Indians. Make your life successful. Help others and be helped. (aside:) What is this? (Hindi—discussing prasada to be served) Hare Krsna. Turnam yateta. (Hindi) Life is very short. Any moment it can be finished. Turnam yateta na pated anu-mrtyu yavat. Before the next death comes... You give me in a plate. Where is restroom?

Satsvarupa: We have our temple in Dallas. I don't know if any of you have been there. It's on Gurley Street, off East Grand, very big building there, and we have a school there for children Srila Prabhupada has started, called Gurukula. It's based on Vedic philosophy that the children at a very early age is the best time for them to learn these principles so that later in life, whether they become householder life or whatever business they take to, they will know the principles, how to avoid sinful activities, knowing love of Krsna. So we have about thirty children there now, and Srila Prabhupada has come to Dallas... He's traveling all over, but he's come here just for a few days to see this school, to see how his devotees are managing the children. He's given us so much advice how to improve the school. Also while he's here, coincidentally you would say, but Krsna is in control. So his arrival, we received Deities, large Deities of Radha and Krsna, marble Deities, forty-eight inches. And so tomorrow Srila Prabhupada is going to install these Deities in our temple. That's going to be early in the morning, at eight o'clock. But then all day long, up until the evening there will be distribution of prasadam and... Just the idea of coming out to see the Deities. Most of the devotees... There are about a hundred devotees back at the temple now and they are all working very, very quickly, hard, to get everything ready.

Syamasundara: Do you have another small table?

Guest (2): Yes.

Syamasundara: Or else we can take this one.

Satsvarupa: So please come to the temple tomorrow, to take darsana. I know everyone works or is busy, but try to come at least in the evening and see this. As Srila Prabhupada was saying, the name is not different than Krsna. We chant on our big japa beads. The holy name is the same as Krsna is in His form or in the picture or the same as His philosophy. And so these Deity forms, we don't consider them as marble Deities but as Krsna Himself. People misunderstand. They think this is idol worship, that we are worshiping some idol, bowing down to idols. Same with the food, they don't understand. We offer food to the Deity. But Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that "If you offer Me a little fruit or a leaf or water..."

Prabhupada: So Syamasundara, you can invite all these gentlemen tomorrow.

Syamasundara: He is doing that now.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Satsvarupa: So that is actually Krsna Himself within the Deity and He accepts the food by our prayers. So just by His seeing, by His glancing... Try to come and see all these things. And every Sunday we have a festival there. Every evening we have classes on Bhagavad-gita As It Is. And as long as we students repeat what Srila Prabhupada said, they have the same potency. We don't try to make something up that our guru didn't teach us. We just try to present his teachings.

Guest (2): That's good. Please take it and then we're going to distribute it to everybody. This is Sister Lucille Perry. She has been to India.

Prabhupada: Oh. Come here.

Lucille: It was a short trip...

Prabhupada: You had been in India?

Lucille: Yes, sir. I missed you by one or two days. I went to Bombay, and I was staying at Swami Muktananda's, and it said you would be there. The next two days you were going to be there for about a week. And since you have to have permission to leave, I said, "Well, that's why I had gone to India."

Prabhupada: The Bombay, you have seen our place?

Lucille: No, sir.

Prabhupada: We have got our place in Juhu.

Lucille: You know Prajapati in Boston?

Satsvarupa: Prajapati, the president of Boston temple. He's a Dallas boy. He's from Dallas.

Lucille: His name was Chandra but (indistinct)

Guest (2): Is he in Dallas? (several people talking, prasada being served)

Prabhupada: What is that? Milk? So many nice preparations given by Krsna. Why shall I eat meat? Where is the necessity? Human being must discriminate what he shall eat. If you say, "Everything is food," then stool is also food for the hog. But the food for the human being must be different from the hog.

Guest (2): Is it our duty to convince everybody and to argue with people and say, "Now..." Because most of the people would argue for, "Where is your protein?" "Needs his protein," and you know, when they talk in terms of body consciousness rather than Krsna consciousness. It's very hard to argue with that.

Prabhupada: Yes, I have argued. All these European boys, I had to argue with them. (laughter)

Lucille: (indistinct) in Bombay and the first thing he did was argue with me.

Prabhupada: Big, big swamis, they are advocating, "Eat meat."

Guest (2): Is that right?

Prabhupada: Oh yes. Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat.

Guest (2): I don't think so.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Lucille: I don't know about the swamis, but I know a lot of the Vedantists do.

Guest (2): That's news to me.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vivekananda says, "What is that, meat-eating?" Krsna says, makes division...

Guest (2): Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was the incarnation of Lord Rama and Krsna...

Prabhupada: That is to Vivekananda, not to others.

Guest (2): Was he not realized?

Prabhupada: That is another question. Don't bring controversial. If you have got Krsna, what is the use of Ramakrishna? When you have got Krsna original, why should you go to Ramakrishna? A shopkeeper says, "This is the same medicine, sir, but it is very cheap." But a real customer says, "No, I want the original. I don't want this imitation. Give me the original." Accepting Ramakrishna as incarnation, so why shall I go to incarnation when I have got Krsna?

Guest (2): Like you said, guru you know. We go through...

Prabhupada: There is parampara. So there is symptoms of guru not that everyone becomes guru. These are controversial points. We don't want this. Why don't you give the ladies first, these ladies? (Hindi) Yes. I am old man. Old men, children, ladies, they must be first supplied. That's...

Guest (2): First (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Our Indian etiquette is that, first brahmanas, then woman, children, then others.

Lucille: In Mexico too, the older people.

Prabhupada: Oh, you are coming from Mexico?

Lucille: No, I have...

Prabhupada: We have got our temple in Mexico City. What is the address of our temple?

Syamasundara: It's near Chapultepec Park.

Lucille: I hope to go visit my grandmother.

Prabhupada: Oh. Mexico is very nice city. I have gone there.

Guest (2): Being a brahmana by birth, does it mean anything?

Prabhupada: No, they are not born of brahmana father. Now they are brahmanas.

Guest (2): But you were saying about brahmanas, so I...

Prabhupada: Brahmanas means qualified brahmanas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ;. Catur-varnyam maya srsṭam [Bg. 4.13]. There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brahmana? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

Syamasundara: All over Texas.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (2): Fort Worth.

Syamasundara: Where we went to that television show today, that was Fort Worth. That's another city. They have more slaughterhouses.

Guest (2): I had some arguments about this. Some people won't eat cow. They say, "It's not Indian cow, so we can eat it." (laughs) All kinds of intelligent arguments.

Prabhupada: Indian people say like that?

Guest (2): Some of them, not all. It's not said, anybody. It's just argument of people that... Even Americans. People, they say, "We are not killing your sacred cow because your sacred cow is in your country." It was long ago, I remember. During lunch break we had some argument.

Prabhupada: Then what are these? American cows?

Guest (2): Yes. They said, "Our cows are not holy."

Prabhupada: Apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2]. They are blind. They do not know about self. Apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2]. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijñasata atma-tattvam. Everyone is born fool. So fool's activities means defeat. So human life, although born fool, they should have knowledge. Without knowledge all their activities are defeat of life, parabhava. So long he is not inquisitive to understand what is his self, whatever he is doing, it is simply for his defeat, parabhava.

Guest (2): One thing I have been thinking for years together, but I could never understand it. In Bhagavad-gita when Lord Krsna..., Arjuna asks a question, kena prayukto 'yam papam carati purusaḥ;. Lord Krsna says, kama esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavaḥ;. The kama... Where is the beginning of this kama?

Prabhupada: Rajo-guna. That is stated, rajo-guna. (Hindi) Rajo-guna-samudbhavaḥ;. Therefore you have to come to the sattva-guna. Sattva-guna, to come to the sattva-guna, you have to sattvika vikara (Hindi)... They are described in the Bhagavad-gita. Brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. That is sattva-guna. Satyam saucam.

Guest (2): Guna... (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Guna, develop. They are... They are developing these brahminical qualifications, coming to sattva-guna. From rajo-guna, tamo-guna, they are coming to sattva-guna. Sthitam sattve prasidati. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavaḥ; kama-lobhadayas ca ye [SB 1.2.19]. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavaḥ;. Rajas-tamaḥ;, these qualities are manifested by lust and greediness. Tada rajas-tamo-bhavaḥ; kama-lobhadayas ca ye, ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati. When one's heart will not be disturbed by these two qualities, tamo-guna and rajo-guna, then he will be situated in sattva-guna. Ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati. Then he becomes satisfied. At that time he becomes jolly. Evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ;, bhagavat-tattva-vijñanam mukta-sangasya jayate [SB 1.2.20]. When he becomes jolly, being situated in sattva-guna, at that time he can understand what is bhagavat-tattva, what is the Absolute Truth, not in the rajo-guna, tamo-guna. That is not possible. That is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita,

brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ;
[Bg. 18.55]

Guest (2): The problem is most of the time we spend our life in rajo-guna.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (2): The problem is most of the time...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): goes in rajo-guna.

Prabhupada: Tamo-guna, rajo-guna.

Guest (2): Tamo and rajo-guna. (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Syamasundara: Do you want us to distribute this? Srila Prabhupada, this is special water from the Ganges if you want to drink some.

Prabhupada: I have taken it, little. That's all. (pause) Harer nama, harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. (pause) So tomorrow you are all invited. Please come. You are also invited.

Syamasundara: A special ceremony tomorrow.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Can we get one picture of the group?

Prabhupada: Yes, sit down. No.

Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest (2): Why don't you all move and please stand... (Hindi) Can some of them stand over that side?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Why don't you... You could come on this side and ladies over there. You people have to sit on your knees. I am sorry. I think I'll take one group, some people, and then do some other. (Some time passes.)

Prabhupada: So it is a happy meeting?

Guest (6): Yes, Maharaja is converting (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Accha. Please come tomorrow. (Hindi) What time you have given them, any time?

Satsvarupa: Yes. The ceremony is in the morning but if they can't make it, all day long we'll be distributing prasadam. Come and see the Deities.

Prabhupada: Yes, any time you can convince him to come. Hare Krsna. (Hindi)

Guest (6): Thank you. (Hindi) (end)