Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi
Delhi
25 Nov

Former Cabinet Minister in the Indian Government
And Member of the Royal Family of Kashmir

711125R2.DEL

Prabhupada: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. (indistinct) civilized activity is going on on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyatma-buddhiḥ; kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. (indistinct) everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmis, they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely, but they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies, and pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. Everywhere we go, material... These people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. Therefore, Bhagavad-gita says that janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, mrtyuḥ; sarva-haras caham [Bg. 10.34], "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.

Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the Upanisads, when they talk of this (indistinct). So if you... What does that mean?

Prabhupada: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam.

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: Cinmaya-sarira. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa.

Dr. Singh: This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Cinmaya, cinmaya-sarira (?) we have got. In the Padma Purana, the length and breadth of this cinmaya-sarira is given: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya [Cc. Madhya 19.140].

Dr. Singh: This is my wife.

Prabhupada: Ah, how are you?

Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. (indistinct), one English friend of ours who is out..., who is...

Prabhupada: So why are you sitting down?

Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He has taught, therefore, that

trnad api sunicena
taror api sahisnuna
amanina manadena
kirtaniyaḥ; sada hariḥ;
[Cc. Adi 17.31]

(indistinct) because here everyone is puffed up.

Dr. Singh: Ahankara.

Prabhupada: Ahankara-vimuḍhatma. (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find.

Syamasundara: Inherit the earth.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Syamasundara: The meek shall inherit the earth.

Prabhupada: So this is..., because our puffed up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore, brahma-bhutaḥ;, those who are self-realized, they are prasannatma. Any condition of life they are happy, jolly.

Dr. Singh: Swamiji, if Isa is everywhere, isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], then surely He is in the body also.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?

Prabhupada: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktahara-viharasya. But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to... The body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, (indistinct) nature you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment, so why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given up everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.

Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjitha.

Prabhupada: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjitha [Iso mantra 1]. They simply take Krsna prasadam. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.

Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact.

Prabhupada: They are now known in their country as the bright-faced.

Dr. Singh: Bright-faced.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)-mukha.

Prabhupada: Yes, (Sanskrit)-mukha. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that "Are you Americans?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in..., gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that "Swamiji, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that. Another priest, Christian priest in New York..., in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to...

Dr. Singh: Would you have (indistinct)? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with.

Prabhupada: One glass of water will be fine.

Dr. Singh: Only water? Only water, Swamiji? (Hindi) We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today so there is no problem.

Prabhupada: I am very glad to see original ksatriya. (Dr. Singh laughs) Rajarsi.

Dr. Singh: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Your generation are ksatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmana and ksatriya. Kim punar brahmanaḥ; punya bhakta rajarsayas tatha [Bg. 9.33]. And Krsna says, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ; [Bg. 4.2]. (Hindi?) We have lost our ksatriyas, we have lost our...

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: So the Vedic civilization is lost. The ksatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Dr. Singh: And also the...

Prabhupada: And the brahmanas the head.

Dr. Singh: But in the Upanisads, as you know, there are many cases in which the brahmanas had to go to the ksatriyas for knowledge. You remember?

Indian man: Fourth Chapter of Gita (indistinct). Fourth Chapter of Gita (indistinct). The knowledge is being handed over.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Handed down.

Prabhupada: That I have spoken. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ; [Bg. 4.2]. So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respects.

Dr. Singh: Sretaketu(?) also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.

Prabhupada: Because it is genuine.

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)

Prabhupada: I want to revive brahmana-ism, ksatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13].

Dr. Singh: Guna-karma vibhadayo.

Prabhupada: So the brahmana's dharma, the ksatriya's dharma, the vaisya's dharma, and the sudra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupada: That is a fact, that is Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the gunas.

Prabhupada: Integration of gunas, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three gunas. Nistraigunyo bhavarjuna. Traigunya-visaya veda. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of gunas—sattva, raja, tama guna. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraigunya, nirguna.

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ;(?).

Prabhupada: Caturthaḥ;(?) platform. And that is possible by this Krsna consciousness. Krsna says,

mam ca (yo) 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena yaḥ; sevate
sa gunan samatitya etan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]

So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmana. Next to that, passion, ksatriya. And next to that, vaisya, mixture. And next to that, sudra. And next to that, canḍala.

Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have..., for example, he's got to have his..., he's got to have knowledge of the dharma. He's got to have the capacity to act...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: ...of the ksatriya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and (indistinct), for example.

Prabhupada: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupada: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a ksatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupada: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society... Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the leg, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swamiji...

Prabhupada: That is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna. Either you may be brahmana or either you may be ksatriya, either you may be vaisya or sudra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Krsna, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: ataḥ; pumbhir dvija-sresṭha varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ;. Vibhagasaḥ; is accepted, varna asrama. Svanusṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. You remain ksatriya, you remain brahmana, you remain sudra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Krsna by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a ksatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Krsna said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Krsna's discipleship, sisyas te 'ham [Bg. 2.7], "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes. Karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavaḥ;.

Dr. Singh: Prcchami tvam dharma-sammuḍha-cetaḥ;.

Prabhupada: Then Krsna taught him Bhagavad-gita. So he remained a ksatriya. But Krsna certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3]. So business is how to satisfy Krsna. It doesn't matter whether you are ksatriya, brahmana, ksatriya. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But surely Krsna is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Krsna is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupada: Krsna is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by...

Prabhupada: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Krsna. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutaḥ; [Bg. 15.7]. So we are parts and... If we do not satisfy Krsna, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.

Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.

Prabhupada: If this finger does not satisfy my body... Suppose I want to scratch here, a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Krsna, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥ;kha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.

Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swamiji, that Krsna may like to be satisfied through the material life?

Prabhupada: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take..., just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Krsna is spiritual.

Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the definition of bhakti. Bhakti means hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam, that is bhakti. Now to serve Krsna, Hrsikesa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king, if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he has to have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Krsna. So everyone can serve Krsna provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?

Dr. Singh: Love of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. That qualification... Love of Krsna is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly in the same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Krsna, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification? Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam: [Cc. Madhya 19.170] when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated: "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], that is mukti. "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) sivo 'ham, sivo....

Prabhupada: What you are? "I am servant of Krsna." Sivo 'ham is the beginning. Sivo 'ham, aham brahmasmi, that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, then what is my duty? This perception that I am Siva or Mangala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? I am working now with the bodily concept of life: "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this nor that, I am sivo 'ham, or brahmasmi, or I am eternal servant of God, Krsna, that is your pure. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. When you come to that understanding, sivo 'ham understanding, brahmasmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti. So, therefore, bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

brahma-bhutaḥ; prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samaḥ; sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

So this Krsna consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Krsna." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct). He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ;. First these administrators must be tejasi, isvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly ksatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no ksatriya. The administration is under the sudra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brahmanas, the sastra, sadhu-sastra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.

Prabhupada: No, not so.

Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Singh: If you read (indistinct).

Prabhupada: (indistinct) some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Ravana and Rama, another was between the Kurus and the Panḍavas after many millions of years passed.

Dr. Singh: There's only two recorded wars.

Prabhupada: That's all right. It was recorded. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is sometimes fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world... Because India, or Bharatavarsa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. This planet is called Bharatavarsa. Formerly it was known as Ilavrtavarsa. Later on, after the ruling of Maharaja Bharata... You know Maharaja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bharatavarsa. And up to the Maharaja Yudhisá¹­hira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this (indistinct). Then gradually... Why? The culture was lost. The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Maharaja Pariksit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Maharaja Pariksit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, ""Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he began, "With this sword I shall kill you."

So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also praja. Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Maharaja Pariksit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem? These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture. Just like Krsna says,

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuḥ; papa-yonayaḥ;
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]

Another in the Srimad-Bhagavatam,

kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanaḥ; khasadayaḥ;
ye 'nye ca papa (yad-apasrayasrayaḥ;)
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namaḥ;
[SB 2.4.18]

We did not preach this Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore, we created all these things. Whose duty it is? Krsna said, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ; papa-yonayaḥ;. "Even one is born in papa-yoni, he can come to Me." That is now the duty of those who are elevated as brahmana and ksatriya, to keep the standard. Even one is born in papa-yoni, he should be educated to become Krsna conscious. But that we did not do. We simply hated. When, during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the (indistinct) and put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta. Now whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Krsna consciousness movement is the only...

Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Krsna?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Krsna rather than to unite the world?

Prabhupada: Well, unless you are united with Krsna, how you can teach the world to become united?

Dr. Singh: But why should one teach the world to become united with Krsna (indistinct).

Prabhupada: To become happy, to be happy. To become really happy. Yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tataḥ;. Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Krsna (indistinct.)"

Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.

Prabhupada: No. Side by side. Just like what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?

Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Krsna first (indistinct), so what is the first priority?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dr. Singh: First priority is to try...(break)...function.

Prabhupada: What do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.

Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swamiji, about the unification of the world.

Prabhupada: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Krsna consciousness and you will be happy. Happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brahmana class, you say intelligent class. Do you agree that in the world there is an intelligent class of men?

Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.

Prabhupada: Everyone is working.

Dr. Singh: They can be very good worker.

Prabhupada: When your brain... Brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.

Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.

Prabhupada: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.

Dr. Singh: They can fight also.

Prabhupada: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is ksatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaisya. And the legs, sudra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Krsna conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gita it is said, bahunam janmanam ante jñanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Is it not? So jñanavan means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Mam prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Krsna. Vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhaḥ; [Bg. 7.19]. That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Krsna conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Krsna conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Krsna, therefore brahmana, ksatriyas, they have fallen down. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, everyone. (Sanskrit)

Dr. Singh: When you become Krsna conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?

Prabhupada: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. It is a material... That spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Krsna consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad-gita, when he became Krsna conscious, he fought. This is Krsna consciousness: to act under the direction of Krsna.

Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swamiji, about the Bhagavad-gita, that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dr. Singh: Whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight.

Prabhupada: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it, if you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought.

Prabhupada: Everything was done by Krsna.

Dr. Singh: When He went as Addhutta(?). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it...

Prabhupada: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Krsna called him foolish, it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad-gita. And when he came to his Krsna consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-matram bhava savyasacin. So this plan was made by Krsna, and there was no other alternative.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Krsna there to tell him what the plan was.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna.

Prabhupada: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Krsna conscious, that's all. I was studying your book.

Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swamiji?

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: This one? Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.

Syamasundara: You secretary gave it to us.

Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swamiji to sign your books. I have got all your books.

Prabhupada: So some of the points... What was the points?

Syamasundara: That every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that we are doing.

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupada: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmanas only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmanas.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Is it not? Now we are creating brahmanas from America, from Australia. Is it not re-creation of (indistinct)?

Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism.

Syamasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation.

Prabhupada: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brahmanas, ksatriyas—especially brahmanas—from every community.

Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kirtana tonight? What is the program, or do we...

Syamasundara: As you wish.

Dr. Singh: As Swamiji wishes.

Prabhupada: Yes, kirtana.

Dr. Singh: Before dinner, before food.

Prabhupada: So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge, it is a great thunderbolt, it is a great gift. (Sanskrit)

Prabhupada: Yes. We can answer any philosophy.

Syamasundara: We have a...

Prabhupada: Niharam iva bhaskaraḥ;, kecit... There is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, niharam iva bhaskaraḥ;. Just like there is fog, if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may some scientific process that this way and that way...

Dr. Singh: Anti-pollution.

Prabhupada: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is come here, talk about this Krsna consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it. That is my appeal. All right, have some (indistinct). I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir.

Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swamiji.

Prabhupada: What is your birthday?

Dr. Singh: '31, 1931.

Prabhupada: And your father's?

Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away.

Prabhupada: I was born in 1896.

Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date.. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? What do you want, a piece of paper?

Syamasundara: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper.

Prabhupada: What is that? Hare Krsna?

(break)

Dr. Singh: Harrison. So our devotees, they (indistinct) that singer of the Beatles.

Prabhupada: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars.

Dr. Singh: Did he?

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) "Words from Apple."

Prabhupada: (indistinct) Syamasundara. (indistinct) find out.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) Sriman George Harrison, Syamasundara dasa Adhikari, Sriman Brahmananda dasa Brahmacari, Hayagriva dasa Adhikari, (Hindi), Srimate Devahuti devi, Srimate Jadurani dasi. You are Devahuti? Sriman Muralidhara dasa and Bharadraja dasa. Bharadraja dasa, Pradyumna dasa Adhikari.

Prabhupada: (indistinct) All of them work for this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure.

Syamasundara: In the beginning of this chapter (indistinct) you talked about men who lead (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: Yad yad acarati sresṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ; [Bg. 3.21]. That is (indistinct).

Prabhupada: That is scientific. Our (indistinct) has gone to hell. How the people will come to (indistinct). They don't care for God, godless existence. (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) difficult to do, but in one's own way one tries. What a man is Sri Caitanya.

Prabhupada: I said that our government should give me facility (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha. (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So why not (indistinct) what I have done? What fault I have?

Dr. Singh: Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India.

Prabhupada: Does he move better than me or less?

Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time, he's based in India.

Prabhupada: Because he has no followers. (laughter) (indistinct) give him place. I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses. So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified?

Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it?

Prabhupada: Not a single farthing. Why this...

Syamasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress.

Prabhupada: Rather they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away."

Dr. Singh: Do they say that?

Prabhupada: Yes. I do not know, but that is the minor point. Immediately that (indistinct) said, what is that? No foreigner can stay there?

Syamasundara: In Nadia.

Prabhupada: Nadia. I do not know whether it is (indistinct). So we are being indirectly disturbed.

Dr. Singh: That must be because there's more trouble there and (indistinct).

Prabhupada: But why must they... The government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. They are so unfortunate.

Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always, you know what happens with prophets. They are always respected more abroad.

Malati: But the point is, we are..., he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather he is giving the greatest thing from this country.

Prabhupada: Recently one paper has remarked that "such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that.

Dr. Singh: Here?

Prabhupada: No. Where it is?

Malati: Boston.

Prabhupada: Boston. Also in Buffalo.

Malati: Buffalo, yes.

Syamasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him.

Dr. Singh: Did he or...

Syamasundara: Did not.

Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Krsna, who needs the Pope? (laughs)

Prabhupada: I may not think... (indistinct) He is the head of a very great religion, so I want (indistinct) cooperation, I offered my cooperation (indistinct). So I have to struggle with so many difficulties, (indistinct) and everything, handicap. Still I am...

Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples?

Prabhupada: No, there are many Indians.

Malati: In England there are many. They are from Muslim families and they are from...

Prabhupada: The Indians take it lightly. They say, "Oh, Krsna. But we have a life outside."

Dr. Singh: You're quite right, that is what the...

Prabhupada: They have (indistinct) everything.

Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Krsna or not?

Prabhupada: Sab janta (Bengali). In Bengal there is called sab janta (Bengali). There are sab janta (Bengali).

Dr. Singh: (laughs) (indistinct)

Prabhupada: So our Indian people are sab janta (Bengali).

Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody is brought up with Hare Krsna (Hindi). That must be one of the reasons, actually, why (indistinct).

Syamasundara: They take us very lightly.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are muḍhas. Avajananti mam muḍhaḥ; [Bg. 9.11]. Muḍha, they are rascals.

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called the drowning of the son of our teacher. Is this from the Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian woman (Mrs. Singh?): See these two little things standing here.

Malati: It's Krsna and Balarama.

Prabhupada: Krsna's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back. Guru-daksina. The guru asked Krsna, "I have lost my son. You can..." "Oh, yes." Guru-daksina. That is how to (indistinct) satisfy the spiritual master.

Malati: Sandipani Muni has...

Dr. Singh: Sandipani.

Malati: He had sons?

Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife...

Prabhupada: That is the duty of the student, to give guru-daksina. Whatever he wants, you must give.

Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.

Prabhupada: That give your finger just to keep the (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: To the ksatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a sudra. He'll miss it."

Dr. Singh: So therefore he...

Prabhupada: (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like sudra. In the Western countries, they are all sudras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the sudra. And brahmana, ksatriya, especially ksatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy visnu-yajña.

Dr. Singh: Asvamedhi.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of Visvadeva(?), the sudras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Sudras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child, you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. (Bengali) The monkey is decorated with pearl necklace. Even Hanuman.

Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.

Prabhupada: (indistinct) "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, (Bengali). (Bengali), the cultivator, what does he know about the taste of liquor? These are very instructive(?).

Syamasundara: The cultivator?

Prabhupada: Cultivator. (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.

Prabhupada: If you give one bottle of John Walker...

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? What is it?

English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.

Prabhupada: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter)

Syamasundara: What is that phrase, Johnnie Walker?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: The phrase (indistinct) (laughter)

Prabhupada: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Krsna. (Sanskrit) That is perfection. For Krsna. Dedicate life for Krsna. So (Sanskrit), keep in your position but serve for Krsna. That Mr. (indistinct) is a very nice boy.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct), you mean our High Commissioner?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much..., he does surya-namaskara and things of that nature.

Prabhupada: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot.

Dr. Singh: Why can he not?

Prabhupada: I do not know.

Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him.

Prabhupada: So anyway, give us some place in London.

Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swamiji. We'll try and do something definitely.

Syamasundara: That letter, which address did you send that to?

Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. When are you going? Who is going? None of you are going.

Syamasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th..., 25th..., 26th. What is it today?

Gurudasa: Tomorrow's the 26th.

Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take (indistinct)

English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week.

Prabhupada: (indistinct) takes three days by air (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London.

Prabhupada: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans.

Syamasundara: The temple we have now is packed day and night.

Dr. Singh: You have a temple?

Syamasundara: Oh, a very big temple.

Malati: But it's not... Every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere. (others talking-indistinct) And they're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and they're very shiny.

Prabhupada: Next time when you go to London...

Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center.

Syamasundara: Every city.

Dr. Singh: This is a new (indistinct).

Prabhupada: (indistinct) Actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now?

Prabhupada: At least three months.

Dr. Singh: Three months.

Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: No. I came last year (indistinct). (indistinct) so I went back again to Los Angeles in (indistinct), in June.

Syamasundara: Moscow, Paris.

Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow?

Prabhupada: Everywhere there is demand for Krsna consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) the day when you chant Krsna consciousness in the Red Square.

Syamasundara: Ratha-yatra, sankirtana.

Prabhupada: You have been in Moscow?

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupada: I was staying in that National Hotel.

Dr. Singh: Who sponsored your (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: Krsna. I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that... (end)