Prabhupada: Krsna says that "I am the taste of the water.'' So everyone has got, everyone has knowledge what is the taste of water. Why do you say he does not know Krsna? Krsna says, "I am the light of the sunshine.'' So who has not seen the sunshine? So when you see sunshine, if you think, "It is Krsna,'' what is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi suryayoḥ; [Bg. 7.8]. There is no difficulty. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi suryayoḥ;. When you see some moonlight...

Reporter: It's very, I think, sir, that we must, as you say, live and have our being in Krsna...

Prabhupada: Yes. It is already, but you have forgot.

Reporter: It is unique. It is so unique. Of course, I mean to say...

Prabhupada: Huh? Why it is not easy?

Reporter: It is not easy to be able to live, everybody... You know what a papi I am. I don't think the Krsna consciousness is so easy...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Even if you are papi, if you see... Don't you see the sunlight?

Reporter: It's very easy to see.

Prabhupada: Suppose you are papi. Do you think that you don't see the sunlight?

Reporter: Yes, we do.

Prabhupada: So if Krsna says, "The sunlight is Myself,'' what is the difficulty, even if you are papi? If..., don't... If you say, "I won't understand like that,'' that is another thing. But if the statement is clear, even if you are papi, what is the difficulty to understand? Simply if you say, "I won't understand,'' like this, that is a different thing.

Reporter: No, no, no. So how do you explain to a Muslim, he's...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. You say one after another.

Reporter: Yes, sir.

Prabhupada: Don't make me distressed. So try to understand.

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupada: You have raised that "I cannot understand.'' What is the difficulty to understand?

Reporter: I mean to be able to actually live it, day to day, like.

Prabhupada: This is a question of... Even suppose Krsna says, "This beautiful flower I am.'' So you are seeing this beautiful flower. So why do you not understand if Krsna says like that? This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuḥ; kham buddhiḥ; manaḥ; eva ca bhinna me prakrtiḥ; asṭadha: [Bg. 7.4] "These eight (indistinct), eight kinds of material elements, they are My energy.'' So you are sitting on the ground, bhumiḥ;, so if you understand that it is one of the energy of Krsna.... Just like the electric fan is running on, everyone knows there is electric energy. Similarly, if you see the ground, bhumiḥ;, as expansion of Krsna's energy, what is the difficulty? Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuḥ;.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: It is very easy to... Sir, what is difficult to...

Prabhupada: I do not know what is the difficulty. (Hindi)

Reporter: (Hindi) (laughter)

Prabhupada: It is very simple, you see. Actually one who does not understand what is Krsna, for the neophyte, the prescription is there, that "You understand Krsna like this.'' Because you are dealing with bhumiḥ;, you are dealing with water, you are dealing

with fire, you are dealing with air, you are dealing with sky, you are dealing with mind, you are dealing with intelligence. You are dealing with all these things. Well, Krsna says, "They are display of My energy.'' And then again says apareyam: "These energies are inferior,'' itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param, "and there is another energy superior.'' What is that? Jiva-bhuta, the living entity, maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. So what is the difficulty? I do not understand. He is explaining everything in the Bhagavad-gita. Simply we have to take it as it is. Krsna says that "I am this,'' and if you say, "No, Krsna is not like this,'' so that is your nonsense. Krsna says, "I am this.'' If you want to understand, just like if you want to understand me, I say that "I am a sannyasi, I am a preacher,'' and if you say, "No, you are not a preacher,'' then how you can understand? I am giving my identification that "I am this.'' So you have to understand. You are writing also, understanding like that. So why do you deny it when Krsna says that "I am the origin. This is My energy"? What is the reason you deny it? What is the reason?

Reporter: Sir, nobody is denying. Only we are trying to comprehend, understand.

Prabhupada: So there is no question of comprehension. When you see a snake, call it a snake. There is no question of comprehension. This is a fan, everyone knows. When I will say, "This is a fan,'' everyone understands it. Law of identification. Krsna is identifying Himself, that "This is my energy."

Reporter: Let us understand you first of all.

Prabhupada: I have no personal presentation. I am speaking only what Krsna... Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Here is the book, you see. This book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, which we are presenting, and publisher is Macmillan Company, and every year they are printing at least fifty thousand copies. This is for our fifth edition. They are printing this book since 1968. '68, '69, '70, '71, that, I think, I know they have, they are fifth edition, and people are reading it, Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Our..., we don't change. Krsna says, "I am the Supreme,'' and we are saying Krsna is the same, Supreme. Even I do not understand what is Krsna, I am simply presenting what is written in the Bhagavad-gita. mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no superior element above Me.'' So we say, "Krsna is the Supreme. There is no other Supreme.'' Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We say that "You follow, think of Krsna, you become a devotee of Krsna, you offer your respect to Krsna.'' So we are not (indistinct), because we are presenting Krsna as He is speaking in the Bhagavad-gita, that's all.

Reporter: How do you feel the modern world...

Prabhupada: This is the feeling. You see the effect.

Reporter: What's your feeling?

Prabhupada: My feeling, I am very satisfied that Krsna is accepted by presenting as He is. I must be very satisfied, because before me, who did not present Krsna as He is, there was not a single Krsna conscious person in the Western world. Now I have got thousands. So why I shall not feel satisfied? Those who misinterpreted Bhagavad-gita—"This is this, this is that, this is that''—they could not get even one Krsna conscious person, and by presenting Bhagavad-gita, they are selling fifty thousand copies per month, and I am getting every year one thousand, two thousand Krsna devotees. So why it is not practical?

Reporter: In India?

Prabhupada: In India everyone is Krsna conscious. They are trying to forget Krsna consciousness.

Reporter: Oh, we are. I see.

Prabhupada: Everyone Krsna conscious. Who does not know Krsna?

Reporter: That's right, sir, that is we are very poor specimens. I mean every...

Prabhupada: No. By force you are trying to forget Krsna, that's all.

Reporter: Sir, I beg your pardon, sir. We are very poor specimens.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: If, as you said, sir, we are all, everybody is Krsna conscious in India, still I can say we are to (indistinct) problems here. We are very poor specimens. I won't talk in all other...

Prabhupada: But you do... Don't you... You have not heard Krsna's name?

Reporter: We have heard...

Prabhupada: No, no. You have not heard Krsna's name? Then why you are not Krsna conscious?

Reporter: We are conscious of the Krsna's existence.

Prabhupada: Outside..., out of India they ask us this question, that "In India, how many Krsna conscious?'' Every Indian is Krsna conscious. Every Indian is Krsna conscious. But he's trying to forget by artificial means.

Reporter: So you mean by Krsna conscious...

Prabhupada: By nature every Indian born is Krsna conscious, but at the present moment they are trying to forget Him. That is the problem, going on.

Reporter: What part of Krsna? Or just part of His life?

Prabhupada: Krsna, there is no part. Krsna is absolute.

Reporter: He doesn't have form. For me, and for my child, Krsna's here child life is very better.

Prabhupada: For child, and for me or for you, simply try to understand that there is a person Krsna. That's all.

Reporter: So, sir, are we rightly understanding that by "Krsna'' you mean some eternal principle, not as...

Prabhupada: Not principle. A person, like you, like me.

Reporter: A person?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just so you are talking with me, I am talking with you, you are person, I am person, similarly Krsna is a person.

Reporter: Person in the ordinary sense of the word, or...?

Prabhupada: No. He is Supreme Person.

Reporter: Supreme?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like we are sitting here in Delhi City. Now here is Lalaji. He is supreme personality, mayor. (laughter)

Reporter: So we, we can see and feel and touch Him and be something also like...

Prabhupada: No. I am taking for example India, the president is the supreme personality. The president is the supreme personality. You have to admit it. You may accept him or not, but officially you have to admit. So in this whole creation, cosmic manifestation, there must be some Supreme Personality. That is Krsna. That is confirmed by Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita, mattaḥ; parataram nanyat kiñcid as ti dhanañjaya: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no superior personality than Me.'' And we accept it. There is our Krsna consciousness: "Oh, Krsna is the Supreme Person.'' So our knowledge is very easy. We don't make any research. Here is Krsna says that He is the Supreme Personality—we accept it. That's all. It is very simple.

Reporter: Can we see Him, just as we see Lalaji?

Prabhupada: And why not? Why not?

Reporter: But with these eyes or the...

Prabhupada: Yes, with these eyes. Simply you have to purify. Just like Lalaji, now he is known here. We can see. But he goes in the streets, nobody knows him. So you mis..., might have seen Lalaji; he cannot see. Is it not? Tell me this? One who does not know Lalaji, Lalaji on the street, then even Lalaji meets him he does not see him. Why?

Reporter: Question of eyes and knowing, sir.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then he has to make prepare his eyes to see Lalaji.

Reporter: So, sir, how do we prepare eyes to see?

Prabhupada: That is, that is the question.

Reporter: (indistinct) (laughter) He said it's easy. I said, well, I know what is...

Prabhupada: No, no. It is easy. It is easy. Suppose I say, you say that "I have never seen Lalaji,'' and if I say, "Here is Lalaji. Why don't you see?'' and if he accepts, that is... That's all right. What is the difficulty? If you say, "No, I cannot believe you. I don't think that he is Lalaji. Lalaji, why he is walking on the street? He must be in a big, nice car.'' But if you put all this argument, then it is very difficult for you. But if you believe me that "Here is Lalaji,'' then the matter is very simple.

Reporter: The question is faith versus the...

Prabhupada: It is not faith. It is not Lala... When I speak "Here is Lalaji,'' it is not faith. It is fact.

Reporter: I guess because you have...

Prabhupada: But you don't believe me.

Reporter: Because you have personally witnessed, you see, sir.

Prabhupada: That's all. It is not faith.

Reporter: Oh, yes, sir. You are (indistinct).

Prabhupada: If you believe me, then it is all right. If you don't believe me, that is different.

Reporter: Then, sir, if everybody (indistinct) and that comment, "Believe me,'' that...

Prabhupada: No. Why do I say...? You have to, you have to see whether, whether this person is worthy of believing. (laughter)

Reporter: Whether the guru is right.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore guru, guru cannot be any ordinary man.

Reporter: That's right.

Prabhupada: That guru cannot be. That guru's designation is there in the Vedas, that tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijñasuḥ; sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. Anyone who is inquisitive for understanding... Suppose if you are inquisitive to understand really what is Lalaji, then you must approach to a person who knows Lalaji. Then you will understand Lalaji. And if you approach somebody who does not know Lalaji, then he may give you misinformation. So guru is that who knows Krsna. Otherwise you will not be able to understand what is Krsna. That Krsna also very easily you can find out. Take what Krsna says. Krsna teaches Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna directly. Now if you believe Arjuna, then you understand Krsna. Krsna taught Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna, and why Arjuna was taught, that is also said by Krsna, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si: [Bg. 4.3] "Because you are My devotee.'' Krsna did not go to teach Bhagavad-gita to a Vedantist. He went to teach to Arjuna. He was a family man, he was a soldier, but why he was selected? He, Krsna said, bhakto 'si. So if you approach a Krsna bhakta like Arjuna, then you will understand Krsna; otherwise you will not. They are understanding Krsna through me, not before me. But if they or some of them, "something,'' some of them "something,'' they may be very big scholar, but they did not know what is Krsna.

Reporter: So first there should be direct...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...apprehension by...

Prabhupada: Yes. One must be brahma-nisṭham, srotriyam brahma-nisṭham. Tad vijñanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means must. You must find out a guru who knows Krsna. Otherwise there is no possibility of knowing Krsna.

Reporter: So, sir, for we poor mortals it is very difficult to immediately, you see, to...

Prabhupada: It is not a subject matter to understand immediately.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: It is not subject matter to understand immediately. It is a science.

Reporter: Yes, a science.

Prabhupada: It is a science, jñana sa vijñana. So you cannot understand a science in five minutes. That is not possible.

Reporter: Yes. So we were trying to understand... No. We have just come to understand you.

Prabhupada: Yes. That was others you cannot understand. (laughter)

Reporter: (indistinct) He is trying to tell some kind of parochial (indistinct).

Prabhupada: If you kindly accept what I say, then it is possible. If you are simply, what I say, if you have faith in me, and if what I say you believe, then you can understand. Other, it is not possible.

Reporter: Can there be an existence without a faith, sir?

Prabhupada: No. Faith is the beginning. But you have to... If you don't increase that faith scientifically, then that faith will not help you.

Reporter: My (indistinct), sir, that without existence, without faith, there can not be (indistinct).

Prabhupada: No, no. That I say: faith is the beginning. Faith is the beginning.

Reporter: Because I take the word of my father, of my mother, that he is my father...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...I cannot prove it. Nobody can prove it that he is my father.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore that is the beginning of knowledge. That is the beginning, adau sraddha. That is stated in the sastra: adau sraddha, faith. Then if you have got sraddha, then adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sangaḥ; [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Suppose if you are, if you are very much anxious, you have got faith to understand Krsna, then next step is to associate with persons who know Krsna. Just like you are doing some business, so you have to enter into some association, businessmen, to understand the business from them. Similarly, if you have faith in Krsna, then you have to understand Him through the association of devotees. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sangau [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Atha bhajana-kriya. Then as soon as you have... Just as these boys, they came to me. After association they wanted to be initiated: "Swami, please initiate.'' That is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tataḥ; sadhu-sangaḥ; atha bhajana kriya. And if you are performing bhajana kriya nicely, then anartha-nivrttiḥ; syat, then all misgivings will go away.

Reporter: Anartha visya.

Prabhupada: Anartha-nivrttiḥ; syat. Then nobody will question. All questions will be anartha-nivrttiḥ;, all doubts gone. Then nisṭha, firm faith. Then firm faith, nisṭha. Then taste. Whenever there is Krsna topics, immediately you go. Tato nisṭha...

Reporter: Taste?

Prabhupada: Taste, ruciḥ;.

Reporter: Accha. Taste, ruciḥ;.

Prabhupada: Tato nisṭha tataḥ; ruciḥ; athasakti , then attachment.

Reporter: Tatha?

Prabhupada: Asakti.

Reporter: Asakti.

Prabhupada: Mayy asakta-manaḥ; partha yogam yuñjan mad-asrayaḥ;. That is Krsna says, mayi asakta. We have to increase our asakta, attachment, for Krsna by this process. Tathasakti tataḥ; bhavaḥ;. Then you will see Krsna everywhere. That is krsna prema.

Reporter: That is bhava. That is at last...

Prabhupada: Yes, not last. Last but one. The last stage is you can not live without Krsna.

Reporter: What do you call in Sanskrit, sir?

Prabhupada: That is called, first of all bhavaḥ;, then prema, prema, krsna prema. That is our high perfection. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking that "I am seeing everything vacant without Krsna.'' Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. That is the last stage of perfection. You become mad about, after Krsna. So that will take time. This is the process. But faith is the beginning. Yes. And that faith is also explained by the author of Caitanya-caritamrta: sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrḍha niscaya. Faith means such faith that firm faith, sudrḍha, niscaya, certain. Krsna bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. This is faith. Therefore Krsna said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So faith means to believe in the word of Krsna, that "Surrendering to Krsna I will get everything. Now, I am free. This is my perfection.'' That is called faith. Krsna said that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Now, if I say unto you that "You give up everything, come with me,'' unless you have got firm faith, how can you do it? That is faith. That faith has to be increased, and then it will reach to the stage of love.

Reporter: Sir, just now we are coming from the press conference of another saint, Bala Yogesvara. He said, his slogan is, "Give me love, I'll give you peace."

Prabhupada: What?

Reporter: He wants immediate this thing. Yours, in your case, prema comes last. He says, "Give me love, I give you peace.'' Santi-prema go santi lo. (sound of siren) (discussion on siren sound)

Prabhupada: I think blackout is over. (more discussion on blackout)

Devotee: Shut the shutters on the doors and we'll go right (indistinct).

Reporter: Sir, this is the real present ugly reality here. We are being threatened.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: This siren is a, shall I say, a very ugly reality before us.

Prabhupada: You are already in ugly reality always, twenty-four hours. (laughter) Suppose there is no blackout. Still, if you go in the street, is there guarantee that you will go home?

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupada: Is that guarantee?

Reporter: No, no.

Prabhupada: Then you are always in ugly reality. Why do you say this blackout? This is one of the features of that ugly reality. That's all.

Reporter: Yes. At the moment I see, but has it...

Prabhupada: Huh? (laughs) You are all, you do not realize that, that you are twenty-four hours in ugly reality! [break] ...attended. Padam padam yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step danger. Why taking this?

Reporter: I know, sir, but this is collective, national danger here. Have you anything to offer to us as a, as a...

Prabhupada: This Krsna consciousness. Our only remedy is this Krsna consciousness. You take to this and you will be happy. That's all.

Reporter: We'll..., yes, sir. I think somebody should go to (indistinct), to those who are threatening us. Some, I wish...

Prabhupada: What benefit you will derive by going to (indistinct)?

Reporter: But, well, he'll go to the... Supposing somebody is out to kill me. That's changing, if you can't tell him...

Prabhupada: But suppose (indistinct) does not kill you. Will you be safe?

Reporter: No, sir. That I can see, but...

Prabhupada: Then what is the use of going to (indistinct)? You will die today or tomorrow. That's all. If you want to save yourself, then go to Krsna. That is our proposal. (laughter) As soon as you go the (indistinct), he does not fight, do you mean to say you will live forever?

Reporter: No, no, sir. I've got...

Prabhupada: Then what is the use of telling (indistinct)? Trust Radha-Krsna so that you may perpetually be saved. Why don't you take that?

Reporter: I was only thinking in terms of collective security, not... I can see your point now.

Prabhupada: You should know that you are always in danger.

Reporter: Yes, sir. We agree.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Reporter: The great Einstein said the same thing when he was actually... He said there was no question...

Prabhupada: That is our position.

Reporter: I could many times fall from here...

Prabhupada: And Krsna says, "I will save you.'' Therefore let us go to Krsna. Why (indistinct)?

Reporter: Changing, because he is disturbing, that's all.

Prabhupada: Disturbing... Your mind is also disturbing always.

Reporter: Yes, yes. You are...

Prabhupada: That is always with you. Your body disease always with you. Are you not suffering from bodily pains—"Oh, I'll (indistinct)"? Why don't you go to (indistinct) to cure your (indistinct)? (laughter). So why you do? You are already in danger. If you... Why don't you realize that point?

Reporter: That I... Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore...

Reporter: But we are talking of national problems.

Prabhupada: These are symptoms. Just like one man is diseased and he is saying, "Oh, (indistinct).'' Real thing is his disease. These are symptoms. So people are trying to cure patchwork. We are giving the supreme cure. That is the difference. No patchwork, no patchwork disease cure will help you. Complete cure.

janma karma (ca) me divyam
(evam) yo janati tattvataḥ;
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti
[Bg. 4.9]

Reporter: Mam eti.

Prabhupada: That's it. That we want. No more repetition of birth and death. Mam eti. That is Krsna consciousness, benefit of Krsna consciousness. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. If you go to Krsna, then you don't come back again.

Reporter: Sir, I..., mine was a very hypothetical question. Supposing hundred pure saintly Krsna conscious people are meditating or discussing or just serving together, and there comes somebody, some dusṭa(?) who drops a bomb, and at the end of all...

Prabhupada: So those who are Krsna conscious, he has not afraid of bomb. They are not afraid of bomb.

Reporter: How to (indistinct) such people? We are such, sir, we are...

Prabhupada: Now they receive bomb, then it is Krsna's desire that bomb has come.

Reporter: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) (laughter)

Reporter: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: A Krsna conscious person is never afraid of anything. Bhayam dvitiyabhinivesataḥ; syad. One who has conception of anything other than Krsna, he is afraid. One who knows everything is Krsna, why he should be afraid? If bomb is coming, he will see, "Oh, Krsna is coming.'' Yes. That is the vision of the devotee. So he thinks, "Oh, Krsna wants to kill me as bomb. Oh, that's all right. I will be killed.'' That is Krsna consciousness.

Reporter: We do not fight?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: We do not fight?

Prabhupada: No, he will fight. He will fight. By the direction of Krsna.

Reporter: By God inside?

Prabhupada: Yes. He is not..., he is not afraid of fighting, but he will fight under direction of Krsna.

Reporter: On that, sir, he has put the real question which I was fumbling to ask. So...

Prabhupada: No. Krsna fought. Krsna...

Reporter: In the Krsna conscious scheme there is also active struggle and activity?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Certainly. Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayo hy akarmanaḥ;. Instead of sitting idle, if you act badly, that is good.

Reporter: Ah. There you are, sir.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna's advice. Krsna does not say sit idly. Neither Arjuna was advised like that. Neither... Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent, sit idly. Krsna never did so. Krsna said, "Oh, you fight. You are ksatriya. It is your duty.'' And in order to raise him to that fighting position, this position, He taught him Bhagavad-gita. So don't think that Krsna bhaktas are idle, sitting only. No. That is mistaken idea. Krsna bhakta can do anything under the direction of Krsna.

Reporter: You are not escapists?

Prabhupada: No.

Reporter: Maharaja, please go on here helping us. You know, we are (indistinct). (laughter) (Hindi) [break]

Prabhupada: ...me that "Your Vaisnavism has killed India.'' And why? "No, Vaisnava means inactive. They say simply chant Hare Krsna and do nothing.'' Then "You have not seen a Vaisnava,'' I told him.

Reporter: Pardon?

Prabhupada: I told him that he has not seen a Vaisnava.

Reporter: Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: In India there are two major war, Rama-rajya yudha and kuruksetra yudha, and there the hero is a Vaisnava-Arjuna and Hanuman.

Reporter: Hanuman?

Prabhupada: Hanumanji. Rama-rajya.

Reporter: He was perfect Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Therefore I told him that "You haven't..., you have, have not seen a Vaisnava."

Reporter: Your permission, may I ask one question? Do we offer any solution for socio-economic problems that you can...?

Prabhupada: Yes. Provided you become Krsna conscious, everything will be solved.

Reporter: Will it come by itself, or will it come through you?

Prabhupada: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupada: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupada: Just like Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srsṭam guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ;: [Bg. 4.13] "These four varnas—brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra—it is created by Me.'' But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Krsna's program, then how you will be happy?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Huh? There is no question of preference. Krsna's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-sangas caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American,'' "I am Indian''—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyatma-buddhi-kuna. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Krsna consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians, they have no caste, they have no nationality. They are simply for Krsna. That is casteless.

Reporter: So are they brahmanas?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna conscious means brahmana. Brahma janatiti brahmanaḥ;.

Reporter: Not by birth?

Prabhupada: Not by birth. They are brahmanas by quality. They have got sacred thread. That is also there in the sastra. Yasya hi yad laksanam syat. Varna has been given. Varna. Varna, we want to compare symptoms. The brahmanas are this: satya, samaḥ;, damaḥ;, titiksa, arjavam, jñanam vijñanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. This is the symptom of brahmana. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. If you find these symptoms anywhere, he is a brahmana.

Reporter: Except those who believe in Bhagavad-gita, not (indistinct), sir. They don't believe in that. They believe caste by birth.

Prabhupada: He does not know what is Bhagavad-gita.

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: I say he does not know what is Bhagavad-gita. If he believes in that way, that he does not know about Gita.

Reporter: He says he's Hindu.

Prabhupada: Maybe your Hinduism. You lick up your Hinduism. But we are creating real brahmana all over the world.

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Krsna has stated, sir, that "I have created these four castes of asrama..."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupada: Guna-karma-vibhagasaḥ; [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth. Krsna never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varnasrama varna. Varna. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhaga, the exact word is "division,'' not "caste.'' How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Reporter: No. But this is what we have been (indistinct).

Prabhupada: So you have been something mistake. That should not be accepted.

Reporter: Well, sir, you should know the problem all that there is a...

Prabhupada: What is that problem?

Reporter: All the (indistinct), harijanas will (indistinct) you.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: If you proclaim that this is the real Hinduism, the people are getting fed up with Hinduism.

Prabhupada: No. No Hindu. Why you are bringing Hinduism?

Reporter: Our, this system...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: ...is only by Hindu...

Prabhupada: No, no. Hinduism is a foreign word, given by the Muslim. We don't find any word "Hindu'' in the Vedic literature. Why do you call Hinduism? We are not preaching Hinduism. We are preaching Krsna consciousness.

Reporter: By such a social system, social...

Prabhupada: That is, that you satisfy (indistinct). But this is a broad Krsna consciousness. This is broader than any system, Krsna consciousness. We are not preaching. We don't go to preach that "Oh, we are preaching Hinduism.'' But because those who are accepting this Krsna consciousness, mostly they are Hindus, then you can call it like Hinduism. But this is not Hinduism.

Reporter: Sir, we are in illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is an illusory...

Reporter: Not illusory. I don't know how far Lalaji will go with you.

Prabhupada: Lalaji is already with me! (laughter)

Reporter: (laughter) (reporter makes jokes) (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Give them prasada.

Reporter: Sir, would you like to give any message to the Indian people?

Prabhupada: Yes. You take... My message is you take Bhagavad-gita as it is seriously, you will be happy.

Reporter: That's all? Take it as is?

Prabhupada: Take it AS IT IS. Don't try to interpret foolishly. That is my message.

Reporter: But, sir...

Prabhupada: So long they are simply foolishly interpreting, therefore they did not get any benefit. But if you take AS IT IS you'll get the benefit.

Reporter: But sir, what are we to do with the (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: Therefore I say I don't (indistinct) name.

Reporter: Who will name it? Who will (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: There is no question of bhasya. I say take it AS IT IS. Krsna says, "I am the Supreme.'' Gita gave. Why bhasya? Why bhasya? They, Krsna, in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1]. Kuruksetre is still there, you know. There is a station. Why do you interpret in different way?

Reporter: Sir, it is a joy to be with you.

Prabhupada: What is the use of interpreting Kuruksetra as different? That is a simple waste of time.

Reporter: Are you a skeptic, sir?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: Have you been to Russia (indistinct) and (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Reporter: They allowed you to preach?

Prabhupada: So why not? We are not afraid of anybody.

Reporter: Because they have their own (indistinct).

Prabhupada: They may have, but the public is not their own. Public is different.

Reporter: That's all right. But you've got to get a visa. How do you... How can you get?

Prabhupada: Then one Russian professor invited me already.

Reporter: Ah. And to receive visa. Did you give some...

Prabhupada: Professor Kotovsky.

Reporter: Kotovsky?

Prabhupada: Yes. You know his name?

Reporter: Well, I have heard of him.

Prabhupada: Yes. He, not invited me officially, but he, we had correspondence. He said, "Swamiji, you come this side, I shall be very glad to meet you."

Reporter: So you went there?

Prabhupada: Therefore, therefore I got the visa.

Reporter: When was this?

Reporter: Twentieth of June.

Prabhupada: Twentieth.

Reporter: Twentieth.

Reporter: Only this year?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: How long were you there?

Prabhupada: Only one week.

Reporter: One week. With your disciple?

Prabhupada: Yes. I have created some disciple.

Reporter: Were you always in Moscow?

Prabhupada: Moscow, mostly.

Reporter: I see. You..., what did, do they allow some lectures or...

Prabhupada: No. I had meeting with Professor Kotovsky. That's all.

Reporter: Only?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Reporter: Kotovsky only. That's all. He couldn't bring some people? Just his...

Prabhupada: Yes. He had his assistants, I had my assistants.

Reporter: ...and some other people who said "All right, we'll hear, like to hear..."

Prabhupada: Well, that professor wanted to hear, that's all right. So I... My conclusion was that "Your communistic idea has not very much improved from our idea, because you cannot do without surrendering. Our Krsna philosophy is to surrender to Krsna. Krsna says, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. So your surrendering process is there. You have not improved. You say God consciousness or Krsna consciousness is not good, but you have not improved, because instead of Krsna, you have surrendered to Lenin. That's all. So you have to surrender in any circumstance. Either you become communist or this 'ist' or that 'ist,' you have to surrender."

Reporter: That's it. And you will go to (indistinct)?

Prabhupada: This is a fact. This is a fact. You have to surrender to your senses. That's all. And we are simply recommending surrendering to Krsna. That's all. By surrendering to senses you are not happy, but if you surrender to Krsna you will be happy. Your surrender is there always. You cannot say that "I don't surrender to anybody.'' That is nonsense.

Reporter: There should be right surrender.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Reporter: There should be...

Prabhupada: Yes. Because you are (indistinct), it is better to surrender and be peaceful. [break] ...here, there, here, there, here. Krsna says, "No. That surrender will not help you. Just surrender to Me, you will be happy.'' So intelligent person will feel that "If I have to surrender, why not to Krsna? Why surrender to some foolish man? Let me surrender to Krsna. If my business is to surrender, I cannot do without surrender.'' That is intelligence. That Krsna says,

bahunam janmanam ante
jñanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevaḥ; sarvam iti
sa mahatma su-durlabhaḥ;
[Bg. 7.19]

Therefore who surrenders to Krsna, he is mahatma. It is very rare mahatma, su-durlabhaḥ;. So anyone who has surrendered to Krsna, they are mahatma. They are not ordinary men. So mahatma su-durlabhaḥ;.

Reporter: Sir... [break]

Prabhupada: We have to surrender, that's a fact. But we refuse to surrender to Krsna. That is our disease. He is not free, just like in a state, just like in Mahatma Gandhi's time, so many started civil disobedience, but the government brought them all into prison, and they obliged them to obey. Similarly, our position is that... (end)